| Author |
Message |
David J. Silva (Cypress) (208.7.213.58)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 2:28 pm: | |
Greetings,
I've read a lot of threads on this board and I know the bias is toward rear engine highway coaches but I have found this to be a wealth of wisdom on all areas of backyard engineering so i thought i'd subject myself to the flames.
I'm looking at Ford E350 shuttle-type buses from the early to mid 90's with 7.5 diesels going real cheap. I understand that is a very good powerplant.
the construction of the body looks a lot more substantial than a comparable class-C RV
Some come with only three or four large tinted windows. Tin over two of them and it starts to look like an RV.
A floor plan designed around that massive rear or side door might be very interesting as well.
I'd be grateful for your opinions and I am very thick skinned.
Also, what do you all think of a seperate board on this site for non-bus mechancal discussion?
Last winter when i was a about to hang myself over a non-working heater in my chevy van I finally got the right answer here after trying other chevy-specific web boards.
The fact that bus conversion forces one to look hard at the origonal engineering and then re-engineer it make the folks here more knowledgable in all areas, (IMHO)
thanx
Dave |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.122.227)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
Shuttle buses aren't built any better than stick and staple RV's-- the reason we convert buses is because they are better built than standard Class A RV's and provide a good base for a durable and safe conversion. You are no better off converting a fiberglass shuttle bus and trying to make everything fit than to just buy a used RV and fixing it.
You asked!
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
Derek (209.53.215.250)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
The 7.3 looks like agood powerplant until you compare it to a comparable detroit (series 50 maybe? I hear they're 8.3 or something: correct me if Im wrong.) You can put a series 50 in a highway coach (greyhound) but try the ford... it'll move it as fast as perhaps a 4-71 that needs an out of frame..
Not to mention, as Geoff said, the build quality is horrible. The walls are less than a quarter inch thick fibreglass (it looks like). If you hit one with a train, It'd look like you ran over an egg with a H3-45.
(Excuse the poor typing, Im at an internet cafe and they use those natural keyboards: The ones where the keys are divided into two sets. I cant stant them.) |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 5:50 pm: | |
Derek, If you ever got used to the natural keyboard, I do not think you would ever go back to the standard. I suspect my typing speed is as least 15 wpm faster on the natural. I really hate to get on a computer that has the dinasour type board. LOL
Richard |
ggo4 (67.249.85.16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 9:18 pm: | |
have had two shuttle bus convefrsions while we were between coaches...even shuttle buses are built to dot people hauler specs...any eldorado or equilivent is built to these standards..a shreman tank compared to an rv...different standards....know before you comment...this board is getting covered with lots of disinformation..... |
David J. Silva (Cypress) (208.27.31.199)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 9:34 pm: | |
Gentlemen,
Try to stay focused on the question. I know why a real bus is better and someday when time and money are more plentiful I will do a proper conversion but still, borrowing from the basic themes of bus conversion, and applying them on a smaller scale, I have a vision i'd like scrutinized objectively.
I think I can find one in the early 90's for around $3K.
I won't find a class C that new and with a decent diesel motor for anything that cheap.
I've read a lot of threads on this board about short conversions and I'd love to find a 25-foot Orion but they are rare and around $12000
I do value your input and if the shells are not better constructed than W-bego I need to think some more so please continue....... |
two dogs (67.30.23.61)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 9:47 pm: | |
look at the buses listed for sale on this site,not bad prices |
FAST FRED (67.75.110.45)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 5:46 am: | |
The chasis ON frame are considered to have a life of about 500,000miles.
This is what Freightliner uses TODAY for their new chasis.
The Real coaches have a frame life expected in the 2 to 3 MILLION mile area.
All running gear can be changed , but the frame is really hard to repair.
There are many advantages to Skoolies , low cost , easy to trail really rough back roads and frequently gas engines.
In a 200,000 mile a year comercial operation a diesel makes loads of sense.
For most 10,000 a year mile RV's a real gas truck (not car) engine makes more sense.
With the foward location you can live with the gas engine noise, parts are cheap , service is easy and a brand new factory engine is under $4,000.
Find a Skoolie with only 100,000mi and you will have 40 adverage years to wear it out.
The Skoolies take the rollover test , with out coming apart .
But the bad taste from the Hippies of 40 years ago still means many comercial parks won't let Skoolies in.
FAST FRED |
David J. Silva (Cypress) (63.165.152.242)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 8:16 pm: | |
Fred,
Thanx for your perspective. I value it greatly. Here's my question; why do i see RV's less than 10 or 15 years old with 80K miles or so and a freshly rebuilt motor? Is it the intermitant usage and the lengthy down time that kills motor home or are they just built to satisfy the first owner for three seasons?
For me the appeal of a shuttle bus is that it will fit on my yard and if done right can be a very good looking RV.
thanx
dave |
Ross Carlisle (Ross) (216.107.197.58)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 10:25 pm: | |
gas engines get rebuilt frequently in motorhomes because they are pushing too much weight. A gas engine isn't made to run aqt 75% output for hours on end. The average motorhome is grossly underpowered.
Another factor is the imtermitent use. Seals dryrot, cylinders rust, etc.
Personally, I think if your needs only require a rig that size, a diesel powered shuttle bus would be a good choice. It is still a commercial vehicle and should be far better than a class C motorhome.
Ross |
CoryDaneRTSIIIL (4.17.253.59)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 9:49 am: | |
I like the look of the shuttles and compared to my old RV, it seems to be built a lot better. As a matter of fact, a shuttle would be my second choice to a bus and I think they would be much easier to handle while driving. I also like the fiberglas walls and roof, so much less to leak and fall apart, on the other hand, a hassle to repair if it is damaged.
I do like the roominess but I dont think you will find any storage compartment space underneath. Now you may build around it, but it is a concern. Grey water will not be a big problem and if you cant use a black tank, there are toilets that dont need a tank. Its all good, LOL.
Engines are inherent to the engineers design as to lasting and all are history and well known now.
The decision is yours, good luck and enjoy the hobby
"Imagine Your Dreams" cd |
Don KS/TX (65.150.144.138)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 11:28 am: | |
Having a stick and staple Southwind in the garage of my own now, and having owned several of them, having converted a GMC 4905 and assisting on several others, AND having bought a diesel powerstroke shuttle last year, I feel compelled to answer.
I bought a one owner beautifully maintained Eldorado shuttle (1996Ford E350 Powerstroke based) on that place we cannot mention. Mine was an El Dorado and built GOOD. It had 245,000 miles on it and ran like a brand new one yet. Although I did not buy it to convert to a motorhome, my almost daily thought was "Wow, people just don't know what a great deal these are for a conversion". I recently sold it for what I paid for it (5k) on that same place we cannot mention. I drove it from Chicago to Kansas City pulling my toad, headwinds all the way, cruising in low eighty mph range - and got 18 mpg!! Try THAT with most busses.
All that good stuff to say, and I absolutely HATE all Fords!! |
David J. Silva (Cypress) (208.27.31.173)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 2:21 pm: | |
Well, how about that, maybe i'm on to something.
Now can someone explain the differences?
The automaker builds two cab & chassis, sells one to Winnie and one to ELdorado or Champion. Winnie fills it with particle board cabinets, tanks and appliances and it's good for 80K miles, Eldorado puts a fiberglass box and 24 seats on it and it's a good safe people mover for 300,000 miles?
Obviously there's more to it than that but what are the differnces?
If the RV came with the diesel would the engine die of neglect if only driven 10,000 miles a year?
Are there other differences at the truck manufacturer between two E350's going to different customers? |
ggo4 (67.249.85.91)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 3:56 pm: | |
Tlhe fiberglas box on Eldo's etc. (shuttle busses ) is frp sandwich board between an inch and two and a half inches thick...then insulated and another 1/4 inch thick layer of fiberglass for the interior wall...not the two sided skin of a rv....have driven them all over the country...never a problem...and they are cheap...lots of room for tanks and accesories... other part manufacturers will put any drive train in a body that the costumer wants..rv builders go as cheap as they can...or so it seems.. |
Johnny (63.159.129.201)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 4:08 pm: | |
I drive shuttles for a living--mostly Ford E-350 & 450 cutaways, 3 front-engine Freightliners (2 1998 flat-nose 30' Goshens, one 1997 snubnose 35' Champion), a 35' 1999 Spartan/Amtran pusher, and a 30' Blue Bird TranStar. All but the Bird have juice brakes, all the non-Fords have Cummins diesels, 4-speed Allison slushboxes, 19.5" Budd wheels, & front beam axles on leaf springs. The Champion has rear air springs (like a bus), the rest have leaves (though I think the Bird has air-assist bags).
The Ford cutvans are built pretty well--they get literally POUNDED over some truly terrible roads for 6-16 hours a day, & we have several with 200,000 miles (18-20,000 hours) still going. We have Champions, Eldorados (both by Thor), Starcrafts, Glavals, a ThomasBuilt, a Metrotrans, & Goshen/Supremes. Of these, the Champions seem to hold up the best, with the Eldos & Supremes a close second. The Glavals are OK (both are 2002's), but are beginning to squeak. The Starcrafts are much poorer-quality: electrical gremlins, delamination, rattling windows, inadequate A/C, & cab ergonomics bordering on the bizarre (like stereos in the overhead). One also has structural problems.
My preference, however, would be one of the scratch-built buses: a Freightliner. With more weight capacity (11,600-14,050 for the Fords; 19-25K for the big ones), the legendary durability of the 5.9 litre Cummins, 19.5" wheels & load range F or G tires (Fords have 225/70R16E's), a straight front axle, & rear airbags. Our 97 Champion (my favorite Freightliner at work) gets pounded for 12 hours/day over Boston's simply disgracefully-bad roads--with 75,000 miles, it still tracks perfectly, the inside is tight & rattle-free, steering is tight. The engine is the old-model 12-valve Cummins, & I suspect it's de-rated for this application. The pedal sees plenty of time against the floorboard, but it will cruise all day at 60MPH (yes, it has cruise control). |
Don KS/TX (65.149.4.178)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 10:42 pm: | |
I would never dispute that Johnny, but I think the thread started with low cost a major factor. Don't think you will pick up many Freightliner shuttles in the 5k range will you? If so, this Ford hater would go there in a minute. |
FAST FRED (67.75.113.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 6:08 am: | |
There is a big diference in the chasis chosen for comercial work vs those for rec Vehicles.
The exception is Bluebird which used to use the 750 series chasis under their Wanderlodges .
The key ingredient in looking is which production line the chasis was built on.
The REAL truck chasis will have a REAL truck engine & tranny & breaks , and works fine for RV's of under about 25, 26,000 lbs.
The dead RV's at low miles are not limited to gas jobs , frequently there are "Genuine Custom Coaches of Ohio" with NEW engines etc at the 80,000 mile level in FMCA.
Yes the misuse of NOT taking care (by Da Book)is very hard on expensive diesels as well as cheap stuff.
Usually the prohibitive costs involved with Bus conversions (over $200 for oil change & grease job) and the myth that,
"Busses run Forever with only an occasional oil change" lets owners mentally off the hook till their toy till it craps out.
A neighbor down the sreeet bought a $200K Marathon cat house style. When asked he did not know what engine was installed!(DD two stroke)
Do you think it will run with anything but car oil & car antifreez?
Or 10W40 from a truck shop?
Use and maint are the keys to vehicle longevity.
If you troll the boards you will find examples of folks that convereted for 2 or 3 years and then needed to rebuild the chasis and engine to get moving.
The sadest is a gent that did a full few years conversion only to find the engine was so obsolite that parts werent even avilable anymore!
Now he drives a Skoolie and shills for the RVIA.
FAST FRED |
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