| Author |
Message |
Carroll (68.155.48.244)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 10:37 am: | |
Trying to get the bus on the road for at least a weekend before the summer is over. I am wanting to put a small(9-12 cuft) electric frig in my 04. This will be the only 120v appliance for the time being. I have an 8D bat and small (1000 watt) honda gen I plan to charge the battery with. The frig is rated at 1.6 amps as best I can tell on the label. Does this sound about right for a 9 ft frig? Will a 750W inverter from Wally world ($50) work for this application. I know all you perfectionist will just shake your heads but this is temporary and the full conversion is not under way yet. Trying to make due until I have the time. |
Earl-8-Ky (207.162.163.19)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:43 am: | |
what will the inverter surge to. It will take a lot more than 750 watts to start the fridge. I have a small GE Fridge. I have a 1750 portawattz which will surge to 3000 watts. I have had no problems with it starting the fridge. |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.79)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:58 am: | |
I would think a 750 watt inverter with surge capacity would handle the refer just fine, but what is important is to use the heaviest and shortest distance 12v cable connections you can to the inverter. Read the instructions for recommenced cable sizes. |
jmaxwell (66.42.92.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 1:13 pm: | |
Make sure the 750w is continuous rating and not the surge rating. A 750w continuous should run a surge of abt. 1200-1400w, which will do fine for your purposes. The modified sine wave output of the small electronic inverters is often superior to that of much more expensive Trace mod. sine-wave inverters. Two important cautions are (1) the size of the cable between the inverter and battery; keep it as big as u can, and (2) do not tie the output to another 110v source without some elaborate switching; they will not handle supply crossing, instant melt-down. |
Craig S (65.202.123.254)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 3:28 pm: | |
Hi Carrol,
The fridge should use about 200 watts @ 120VAC. As long as the surge can be handled by the inverter, you're OK. You will be drawing 16+ amps @ 12V when operating so, like mentioned before, use large batt to inverter cabling. It's always safe to use the 4/0(welding cable). It can be reused later in the final hook-up. Keep it's length as short as you can, 6-8 ft max. I'd buy the subject inverter, give it a try and take it back if it doesn't perform.
Good Luck with your trip,
Craig S |
Carroll Sasscer (68.155.48.244)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 4:53 pm: | |
Thanks for all the info. I like the idea of using stuff now that can be reused when I get down to serious converting. One other question, As the power in the battery drops, so does the volts right? At what point will the voltage drop affect the inverteror will it? Should I put two 8D batteries in to minimize the drop in each? Guess all have figured out I don't know much about electricity. Thanks again.
Carroll 04 |
James Robinson (Jjrbus) (68.27.29.129)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 5:49 pm: | |
I bought a 750 watt inverter at the advice of a friend to run a Sam's club GE apt. size fridge. My friend a smart fellow read the numbers and said it would do it. Did not work, I had plenty of power it was hooked up to 2 8D batts,
I have seen it done with a 1000watt inverter.
Jim |
FAST FRED (67.75.103.43)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 5:56 pm: | |
A 16 amp load will kill a single 8d in half a day.
The big question is how many HOURS the fridge needs to run to stay cool per day.
This comes from the gov. TAG on the door when you bought it.
If you dont remember go back to the store & look.
Divide the KW on the tag (about 500 per year) by 365 .
The result is the number of KW the unit will use in a single 24 hour day.
A really fine deep cycle 8D has about 200ah that can be drawn out , but if you use that amount you will do serious perminant damage to the batt.
Half dead works better so figure 100A per 8D batt.
So the voltage 12V times the amps avilable 100 gives watts avilable to run the fridge.
12V X 100A is 1,200 or 1.2 KW .
120V x 1.6 A is 1,920 or 1.9 KW per DAY!
So with luck you might get 24 hours per batt ,but with a 1.6A load the batt will be dead in under 8 hours of run time, unfortunatly the 1000W Honda will take 5 or 6 hours to bring the battery back up , so it is fully charged (assuming a fine big buck batt charger).
And this power from the batt is for the fridge ONLY , no lights , radio, TV or any other loads before damaging the batt .And we havent figured in the inverter inefficency , or the lack of power most motors have when on inverter power.
Probably best to camp by the PP (power post) untill you get really heavy duty batts , and the ability to monitor & recharge them.
Sorry,
FAST FRED |
Carroll (205.188.208.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:27 pm: | |
On the way home I got to thinking about exactly what Fred is saying, the ticket said the annual consumption is 338 KW per year or just under a 1000W per day or approx 9 amps at 120 or 90 at 12 volts. Charging rate is about 6A at best isn't it? That's 15 hours, I'd be better off to use the generator to power the frig. We do all our camping without shorepower so looks like gas its going to have to be. Hate to have to cut the side up for the installation of a gas frig. Any other suggestions? Thanks folks for the info, ya'll saved me some money.
Carroll 04 |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.214)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 10:00 pm: | |
I have a 120v 1.6 amp refrigerator in my bus running off an inverter and 4ea Grp 31 batteries and it will run the refer for a few days. Get an extra battery and forget the expensive RV frig. And later on get a good inverter with a built in 3-stage battery charger. |
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:29 am: | |
Pardon me for suggesting the low-tech approach, but, if what you are hoping to do is get your coach on the road for, as you said, a weekend, perhaps you could just get an Igloo chest and some ice. That'll let you wait on the whole fridge thing until you can put some real batteries, charger, and inverter in.
Just a thought...
p.s. We decided to go with a super-efficient 12/24-volt fridge from Novakool. Expensive (and small), but will let us boondock with minimal genset usage but without going the LPG route. |
FAST FRED (67.75.111.143)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 5:07 am: | |
A proper propane fridge for extended camping does not need holes cut in the side , but DOES need a $35.00 roof vent.
8d's can be charged at about 40A for a while if the charger has temp monitoring , but it does little to speed up the recharge porcess , as the last NECESSARY 10 or 15% takes a long time.
The other method is Sams Club batts , They have a great return policy , so you could just keep killing a set & returning them , till they figure it out.
Works for some folk,
FAST FRED |
Adame (129.82.54.47)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:46 pm: | |
I'm planing to use 4 ea. 75 watt solar panels to run a small refer. 5 hours of direct sun = 1.5 kw. There are some efficient 12 vdc refers that use rotary compressors. They cost as much as about 5, 110vac Sam's refers so I guess I'll start with the Sam's refer with added insulation and a 12vdc muffin fan ducted to cool the compressor.
Bob |
Carroll (68.155.48.244)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 12:14 pm: | |
Thanks all for info. Just bought an old Dometic for $50. Electric doesn't work on it Got it hooked up to bottle of gas as I type this. Seems to be getting pretty cold but the guy garrrented it to work (at least once). I know I'll eventually have to put the vent in but with our goal of exclusively self contained camping ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Guess I should have looked around before I started the idea of the electric one.
Carroll 04 |
FAST FRED (67.75.106.23)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 3:46 pm: | |
Bob the hassle with solar is you have to park in the sunshine for them to work.
Parking in the sun will heat the coach.
Do it your way,
FAST FRED |
Adame (129.82.52.225)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:28 pm: | |
Fred, that occoured to me after I bought the panels. (DUHH) I suppose if you have enough pannels on the roof you're always in the shade.
The picture I have in my mind is my old Clipper parked on the beach down in Baja with the sun keeping my beer cold.
Absolutely doing it my may.
Bob |
FAST FRED (67.75.112.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 5:46 am: | |
For Carroll 04,
There is only one consideration to taking combustion air from inside the coach ,you may have paid to condition (heat or cool ) the air.
There however is a huge objection to venting the fridge inside the coach.
Every pound of propane consumed creates 1.2 pounds of water vapor.
This can get into the insulation and is not healthy for the coach.(Same objection for heaters that are NOT VENTED)
Install the proper roof vent from ANY one of the RV fridge Mfg AND use their diagram for the duct behind the coach to help the air flow out.
For a weekend or two , in fine weather just keep a couple of windows open , but long term VENT PROPERLY, your life and the coaches life are at stake!
FAST FRED |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.103)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 10:14 pm: | |
The trouble with going to a household refer is that the electricity that they need while boondocking has to be made by throwing away easily 2/3 of the energy used by the generator.
This means that they get to you two different ways; by using too much fuel and making too much noise. The RV refer uses heat directly in its operation, so that loss and the noise are both done away with.
We just got back from 17 days in our coach, and 6 gallons of propane ran the refer in hot weather, provided hot water, provided heat for the dryer, heat for cooking and a small amount of furnace heat.
I can't see how we could boondock very easily for any length of time without the propane. We were never on a power pole while on this trip.
For what its worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Don KS/TX (65.150.145.33)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 11:01 pm: | |
It seems really hard to tell Geoff and I it don't work, when we have been so happy with a house fridge for so long. I used such a setup in two RV's prior to my bus, would do it again, my last fridge even had an icemaker and was not a little one. One part of the problem that is not addressed, is that in most folks normal use one does not just sit in the middle of a field for weeks watching the ice cubes form. During a normal day of driving (buses do that very well you know), the batteries are most fully recharged from engine alternator for the night, and as Geoff says, several days are not a problem when just sitting. I do agree that if sitting in the field and doing nothing for many days is your thing, a different approach is best, but then probably a bus is not the right choice for you either. |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.122.83)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 11:37 pm: | |
People with small household refers and inverters only have to run their gensets for one-two hours every other day or so to keep the batteries up. When boondocking, I like to run my genset for 1 hour in the morning to heat the water and charge up the batteries, make coffee and perhaps warm up something in the microwave. I use 1/2 gallon of diesel, and my genset is quiet. 120v refer is the way to go.
Works for me.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
FAST FRED (67.75.105.237)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 5:58 am: | |
No matter how sophisticated the charge circuit you are loosing battery capacity from constantly never FULLY recharging the batt set with this technique.
A batterey monitor Link , or Bogart or E meter would likely show the batt set seldom over 90% full.
Probably works fine to boondock 5 or 10 times a year for a day or two , but if attemped for a long period of time , weeks , you will LOOSE.
This is why it is so important to decide EXACTALLY what your going to ask your camper to do, before you build anything.
Most problems have been solved , you only have to decide which problems you NEED to solve.
I'm certan Geoff is delighted with the performance of his coach , to camp HIS way,and indeed it works for him.
But for folks that want to be able Boondock a LOT, its not the "best " choice.No matter how cheap it is.
FAST FRED |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.62)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 9:08 am: | |
Fred, why don't you tell us about how you have your bus set up for long term (or even short term) boondocking? It seems to me we have a lot of preaching going on on how to set up a bus that is not even being followed by the author. And as far as I can tell there are very few people around here who boondock "for weeks" in their bus. Maybe a few days at the most. Jared is the only one I know of that is setting up their bus for long term boondocking.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
john marbury (Jmarbury) (65.100.118.185)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 9:17 am: | |
While I do appreciate that everyone has their own objective, I am very interested in setting my bus up for long periods of boondocking.
I really get alot out of ALL these post because, when combined, they provolk more thought and fresh ideas.
2 cents, CHANG,CHANG
John |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.62)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 9:57 am: | |
If you are interested in long term boondocking the best thing you can get is a diesel generator in a sound box so you can run all your amenities and live in comfort. Another thing you have to remember is you are always limited by the amount of fresh and waste water you can carry-- that is the real problem in boondocking.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
FAST FRED (67.75.113.12)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
Thanks for asking , on my coach ,FART
(Functional Art Recreational Travel)
a work of art , still in the works, all the propane items are along one wall , so they can be serviced by one feed manifold.
All have seperate operating valves and short legal hose from manifold to user.
The 1 inch pipe feeds the suburban furnace up front which is built into a cabinet RV style.
When it dies its far easier to work on inside the coach than in a bay, esp when its below freezing.
Next in line is the 4 burner range with broiler , the bride cooks well.
Next is the heavily reinforced area for the propane fridge, which is 12 inches off the floor to clear the internal F waer tank.
Lastly is the death trap unvented wall heater that keeps the coach water systems from freezing in fall camping.Never used when coach is occupied by anything that breathes.
Currently I'm still looking for a propane fridge to install, as the brand new unit someone gave me still isn't working.
For a fridge right now we use a 12 V Norcold that runs just fine for a day or so on 4 6v House batteries.
The delight in not installing a big fridge is we can see from front to rear , sight lines unbroken ( on one side) by a big box.
I get BORED (born NYC) doing weeks in the woods, so have no need to be able to camp interupted only by diesel stench/noise for weeks on end.
At least with a propane noisemaker (OHNO 6.5) I'm not stinking out a camp ground or killing the neighbors in a tent.
WE find 55gal of fresh/ 55 gal combined grey/ black works well for a week, when at Sun & Fun in Fla .
But then being ex sailors and used to paying 40c a gallon in the Bahamas , makes for carefull water use.
Works for ME,
FAST FRED |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.153.203.103)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
For me (do it my way?) the 14 cu ft household fridge is worth every bit of diesel fuel I consume. It cools quickly, makes tons of ice, and is relatively huge. It also doesn't freeze up in cold weather like my Norcold did. I had to remove the fridge from the wall and move it inside for a few hours to thaw it out. OK, so it was -17F outside but I won't have that problem now. Add to the above that it cost only $350 and I would have had an inverter anyway, this left me with almost $1000 for fuel and rebuilds for the genset. With the genset in the quiet compartment, I hardly know it's running so that isn't a factor.
Would I do it again? After RVing with Norcold for 10 years, YES, I'd do it in an instant.
Jim |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.121.225)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 7:44 pm: | |
I think the biggest test of your boondocking setup is what the wife thinks-- the worst insult I can think of is if the wife elects to rent a motel room when you go camping together. That is bad. I heard it happened at Busin' 2003.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
FAST FRED (67.75.112.12)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 5:14 am: | |
Much of the "fun " in bus converting etc is on the "Blue"(boys) side of the ledger.
The ladies sometimes prefer comfort to the adventure of the chalenge/stench of diesel exhaust.
I would guess the campers involved were at the porta pottie/ air matress on the deck stage.
Hopefully the conversion will get more finished before needing to trade in the bride.
Happily Jack sets aside a NO STINK area , so we were delighted to visit the event.
There were some unbeliveably crude setups with the noisemaker just standing running SANS MUFFLER , next to the coach!! This didnt impress many folk with his consideration.So someone donated an old muffler, small improvement.
FAST FRED |