| Author | Message | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 522 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121  Rating: N/A |
Has anyone installed regular household baseboard elements off of the front to back drivers heat/defroster loop? As original they had three heater boxes per side and a crossover loop just behind the driver. The parts book only shows one hose to the under dash unit but i am guessing the return tied into the curb side return. Instead of heater boxes with fans i am thinking of replacing sections of the 3/4 copper run with some slantfin elements and fabricating a custom cover of some kind. As now the fore and aft lines are right on top of each other and exposed under the lip of the center aisle. I am also thinking of using a pair of mono-flo tees at the rear bath to send hot water into the h/w tank (6gal with exchanger). The issue with this would be in the summer i would want to valve off the front heat and only go to the h/w tank but would any restriction cause any problems or doesent matter? The monoflo's would only be 1/2 inch off the 3/4. On a long drive i am pretty sure that would give us hot water. It appears the feed is off the block to bulkhead valve and foward and the return comes back to bulkhead valve and returns into the waterpump housing. That could be backwards but thats my story and nothing is sticking too it. Thanks guys and gals. | ||
| steve wardwell (Steve_wardwell)
Registered Member Username: Steve_wardwell Post Number: 109 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 75.203.221.252  Rating: N/A |
I wouldn't think it makes any diff because meny have turned off the loop with no issues...the flow would run either way 6 / 1/2 doz.....I installed finned tubing in a boat where blowers wern't doable with great results | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1142 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.103.159.139 Rating: N/A |
It'll work, and if the hot water off the engine goes thru the water heater exchanger first, then forward to the baseboards and the defroster, you'll get hot domestic water on a short trip. It sounds to me like you are thinking on doing this for OTR heating? If so, convection baseboards just won't put out enough heat to keep a bus warm while moving. Many years ago, I put dash air in a motor home that only had heat. I did it by putting a complete dash unit out of a police car where the original heater was, then running new ducts. It cooled the front well, but it barely kept our feet warm. G | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1362 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.40  Rating: N/A |
WE kept the dash heat and defroster , but tossed the huge coach heater and (2) 80A blowers. A 40,000 btu boat heater with a GM style valve allows front heat as desired. This has kept the bus warm , underway , in the single didgits. Yes it gets cool in the bed area , but when we stop driving an RV furnace does the job in a few min. One advantage of the boat heater is it is plumbed to take air from the origional coach vent system . In hot weather it provides (hopefully) cooler outside air, shut down , running the boat heater and the stock DC heater water boost pump , provides free heat , provided , from the 3000lbs of hot Detroit. FF | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 523 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121 Rating: N/A |
Ok, thanks guys. No sense reinventing the wheel.I was going to cut the bottom of the fins off and part of one side to give clearance. My thunking was since i had a run of 3/4 copper fore and aft anyway i could modify it with the finned. I have plenty of it in both 80A a nd the 30 regular. George this is for over the road heat. I am tired of being so cold on these runs to Fla and back. I can and do run the propane but now with the repower i want to get the front heat working again. The dash unit works but so much cold air off the nose dillutes the heat. going to address that and air test the unit for leaks before antifreeze is run. Fred, i am not sure what the btu's of the original dash unit is. Most of the problem i had using it before was the original dash was scuttled and the heat blows straight back down the aisle, never warming driver or no-pilot. Scout, my fearless/hapless navigator (no-vigator and Scout are her nicknames) never complains but its time to be real. I have a 2 fan 40,000 btu bus unit with some serious fan noises i might play with, that i can mount midway under a settee or maybe more forward with some heavy thinking/woodworking. Where would i look for a dc boost pump? Thanks again for the replies. And Steve, i dont miss living on the boat inthe winter with 80 degress at head level, 70 at chest, 50 at waist, 40's at the floor lol. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.158 Rating: N/A |
I dont know if this would help or not, it is just another idea. In some of the old car forums people say they are mounting hair dryers aimed either for window defrosting or front seat warmth.. I thought it might be a good idea to use piping in the floor boards sort of like radient heat with the antifreeze running from the engine up thru the piping and back again to the radiator. Use some sort of a shut off valve for the summer time. Im concerned about straight water in case of a hidden leak.... (Message edited by happycamperbrat on November 22, 2010) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1363 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.41 Rating: N/A |
As you get south the variable temp from a heater valve and multi speed fan will allow the heat to be turned down . TOO HOT can be handles with open windows , but a better way is OTS. FF | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 524 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121 Rating: N/A |
A hair dryer!!!!!! I would probably go with the heated biker vests afore a hair dryer screaming at me! Way to think tho. Fred what is a OTS? (I feel like Nellie asking for the translations)Over the road system? Anyway an update on the system. I had to go to a 3/4 to 1" sweat coupling and a 1" monoflo t with a 3/4 bull and a 3/4 pex adapter that a 5/8 heater hose will fit over for the run to the h/w exchanger on the domestic tank. This seems a better way to go than the 3/4 x 1/2 monoflo t. I would love to use some pex but dont want to take a chance on the over 180 degree temps.` i installed 3/4 ball valves foward of the tees to shut off the foward heat and still get coolant to the h/w unit for summer. I have a hard time resizing pics to post here but maybe i will have time to try again soon. | ||
| Tony LEE (T_lee)
Registered Member Username: T_lee Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 59.154.42.140 Rating: N/A |
Whatever you end up doing, you will need to make sure the windscreen defroster gets fairly high priority for coolant flow. Most bus defrosters are pretty marginal at the best of times. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 625 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 70.60.102.56  Rating: N/A |
David Evans wrote "A hair dryer!!!!!! I would probably go with the heated biker vests afore a hair dryer screaming at me!" Yeah, a hair dryer is probably only a plain bladed fan; you'd probably get much more air movement at better pressure with a more efficient use of electricity by going with a proper centrifugal air blower. Sure a dryer is gonna be a cheap buy at duh Waw*Mott there's gotta be a better way! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1368 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.80 Rating: N/A |
Fred what is a OTS? OFF THE SHELF, Its anything you simply go purchase , rather than construct or create it. OTS is usually the best for most purposes as it has been used , sometimes for decades,and is cheap to purchase if it fails. FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1146 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.103.159.139 Rating: N/A |
Teresa, A radiant floor is a good idea, and would keep your feet warm, but it won't work well in a bus. We would all consider a 1000 square foot house to be on the smaller side, while a 40' by 102" bus has only 340 square feet. Some of the rooms in the house will only have one outside wall, with one window. The walls are at least 3 1/2 inches thick, MOST with insulation. A 10 X 10 room has 100 square feet of floor space for the hot floor, nearly a 3rd of the buses' total, and only 10' of wall space to overcome. The 1000 square foot house will have 130 feet of wall space, while a 340 square foot bus will have 97 feet. Consequently, there isn't enough floor space to put heat in the bus, in relation to the poorly insulated wall space and windows which are letting heat out of the bus. Sorry, G | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1427 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.224.118.195  Rating: N/A |
That plus the "loss" in the other direction...thru the floor to the underside... I have it at home; it works well under the tile and Sautillo floors...with a carpet over it, it is not worth a flip....except warm carpet and warm concrete/dirt below....no "radiation".  FWIW RCB RCB | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 628 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 70.60.102.56 Rating: N/A |
Hey, RC. I have a friend who has underfloor heat under tile in her bathroom. On cold days, I try to come up with excuses to go take a shower at her house! | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 525 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121 Rating: N/A |
I have a piece of 110v underlay for our coach from Nu-heat. I used it for many years. It works great, doesent really add heat but yer tootsies dont hit the cold floor in the am. Thanks again for all the replies. And Fred, shouldent be ON the shelf!lol I really want to see how your new rig is going. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1373 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.61 Rating: N/A |
And Fred, shouldent be ON the shelf!lol I really want to see how your new rig is going. IF everything goes together (for a change) the tranny will be on the dino next week , and a few weeks later the first start should happen. IF its running , it will go the entire 3 miles or so to Jacks new years do, and you will be able to see it. The biggest hassle is FLA is flat , so its hard to watch how she climbs gills in cruise with the 2.64 rear and .85 overdrive. Probably will buy an "all day ticket" for the Sunshine Bridge and watch what happens. I'm borrowing tires to see how it works , so I will hopefully be able to chose the best size std or lo pro to tweak the gearing. The goal is good MPG and 3% grades in OD . FF | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 526 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121 Rating: N/A |
Ok we have heat! I ran new copper lines (almost 40') to the front, pressure tested before running the coolant thru, and opened the bulkhead valves. I left the valves leading foward off so i only had coolant running to the hotwater tank, and i bled the air at that point. I put the block heater on at lunch time and when i got home this afternoon i opened the valves to the front defroster and started the engine. With the infared, i was getting 84 degrees right away and had 94 at the exchnger on the h/w tank. I only ran it at high idle for 5-8 minutes and checked for leaks and ran the defrost blower and had heat! Neat. Sweet. Maybe no cold feet! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1429 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.218.46.84 Rating: N/A |
David...did you use electric or manual valves? I have a valve in the middle of a run that I cannot budge...haven't been able since I have had the coach..manual...to turn off heat in the summer. I've tried everything I could think of to get it loose, but to no avail....and I'm not into breaking it. Happens to be in the middle of a long run of 46 year old galvanized pipe.  . RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1082 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.1.12  Rating: N/A |
Chuck, I worked on the galvanized valves and found soak them down with penatrating oil[PB Blaster is what I used] let them set overnight and do it again, take a propane torch and apply heat to the body only and work the handle back and forth even if it moves a little keep spraying and heat it just enough that when the BP hits it, it will kinda boil. We had some that were underground and it took awhile but finally started to move and was able to complete job. Try not to heat the handle part or the inside of the valve as the outside will expand enough to get lubed inside. Gomer | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1227 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.45.77  Rating: N/A |
RC, I have a firm policy of replacing every valve with a SS ball valve when I get to them. 1/4 turn on/off and never corrode or stick (So far at least)! | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 527 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121 Rating: N/A |
RC, manual ball valves. As a plumber i am not a fan of gate valves but some of the new junk ball valves dont have a packing nut on the shaft and the handles rot if outside. The worst seem to be from Italy! go figure. Gomer has it right, but on a galvanized pipe you might not get it loose before it breaks. You can never tell. we just broke loose 60 year old steam fittings on 2" pipe that i was about to sawzall. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1085 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.1.12 Rating: N/A |
David; Thanks for the thought. Some of the valves we had were buried and nobody new they were there until they rotted into and then we found the valve in a box that was filled with dirt,sand,trash etc. After 2 days of heating and trying the old valve started to turn whew we were glad too. The new valves from italy we refused to buy them because the started leaking and no way to tighten it up.I even had one in a parts washer that was galvanized and that one broke bad LOL Gomer | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.158 Rating: N/A |
I am sooooo glad I have forums like this to go to!! I have so far found a billion things I think of that gets shot down. You all save me TONZ of cash from my bad ideas! Thanks! | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 632 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 70.60.102.56 Rating: N/A |
I'm getting into my hot water circulation system in a few weeks, I have ball valves -- I'll check to see if they're made in Italy. I'm planning to use the existing defroster and tie into its loop for the existing driver's cap auxiliary heater. What have people been using for a circulation pump? I have an Aqua-Hot that I bought from Nick; I have assumed that I'll need an additional circulation pump (like for times when running down the road and I'm using engine coolant for the heat exchanger in the water heater and also for the bus interior heaters) -- comments on this especially appreciated. Thanks, BH NC USA | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1431 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.215.91.58 Rating: N/A |
Gomer...tired all of the above...except PB Blaster...maayabe I should give ie a go, but I do not wnat to break that old pipe...or the valve, which is also a very old Galvanized type. Who knows, maybe a good Spring project...when I have lots of time...and, perhaps positive attitude (which seems to be waining lately) ! Thanx for all the info, folks...and the encouragement??? >>> RCB | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 165 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 98.20.57.89  Rating: N/A |
Galvanized in a coolant run? Hmmm. Use your PB Blaster for a couple of days, as often as you remember too. Remember, too much is never enough! Then using some ice cubes in a ziploc wrapped with a cloth, cool the housing as much as you can and hit the shaft with heat.... Hair drier, propane torch, etc. By the way, contrary to popular belief, there is a difference between gate valves and ball valves. A Ball valve has a usually stainless ball with a hole in it that is turned with the handle. A gate valve is a simple butterfly in the path of the flow. A Bayonet valve is like what you have to dump with. Or so I've been taught over the years. Ball valves are always preferable, but can be expensive. Usually they have nylon, nitrile or some other type seat that it rides against which isn't reactive. It doesn't ride metal to metal at all, even on the shaft to turn it. I've never had a problem using a brass housing with a Stainless ball, even made in Italy or China or India. Lately I've pulled 4 old ball type shut off valves out of the ground at our RV Park. None of them were bad, but redoing the water system required it. 1 was made in India, 1 was made in China and 2 were made in Italy. They all worked as well as the day they were covered up and that was in 1982. Good Luck! Dallas | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213  Rating: N/A |
They make a number of different types of valves for different usages I have seen 30 year old galvanized valves used on zero make up boilers that work as well as the day they were put in. I have also seen a galvanized valve fail in a very short amount of time due to electrolysis (dissimilar metals) Brass ball valves will fail in a high sulfate environment but last forever in high calcium water. Stainless valves are great but can be a real problem to seal on threaded connections especially under pressure. Lots of hospital application experience to back that one up with. Not much available for galvanized valves anymore so is no longer an issue, If you must replace them use the best valve available for YOUR application. Gate valves and corporation stops are cheaper. Ball valves do cost a bit more but flow better. Stainless costs about the most but can have problems thread sealing. Your choice Les The water guy | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1378 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.82 Rating: N/A |
What have people been using for a circulation pump? IT really depends on the size of the tubing you used. For the smaller 3/4inch finned tubing,, GM uses a 12v circ pump in the 4106 (and probably many others) that seems quite reliable. If you are using larger finned tubing , a bigger pump will be needed. Perhaps a dirt house 120V circ pump . FF |