| Author |
Message |
Peter E (Sdibaja) (200.76.240.28)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 9:22 am: | |
I hear some talk now and again about propane injection. I frequently travel to high country (6-7,000 feet) and understand that propane injection may provide a bit more pull and make for full combustion.
there was a web site or two with great data and even photos but I lost the links and would like some pointers.
It is a pain to keep my eye on the mirror when above 3,000 feet to make sure I am not pumping black smoke.
BTW; I drive a 4905 with 8v71 and V730 |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.208)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 2:49 am: | |
Try Bullydog. I think that's where George Lowry got his.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
claimjumper (208.186.109.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 8:30 pm: | |
>>>Build your own, its easy, cheap, and it works.>>>Dan |
mark (65.40.225.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 10:39 pm: | |
I don't see how propane injection could help in a high altitude situation. Doesn't the high altitude cause the engine to run rich? (because of the thin air)...
Seems to me that by adding more fuel (LP) this would compound the problem?
I have no experience either way, just curious, though.
See 'ya
Mark
Gillig 636D |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:52 pm: | |
That's why they recommend it only for turbo'd engines. So far most writeups I've seen say it doesn't work well enough to bother with on naturally aspirated engines, and I think you pegged the reason perfectly |
Claimjumper (208.186.109.205)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 9:38 pm: | |
Gary is wrong in his assumption, you have to try it to see the real results, propane does not smoke and actually retards smokeing at altitude.>>>dan |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:34 am: | |
Firsthand info Dan?
I've had extensive conversations with Mr. Sharkey who has built (and documented) propane injection systems onto both turbo and non turbo engines, and he assures me that non-turbo it does virtually nothing.
It seems to me that a properly tuned non-turbo engine is going to burn up all the O2 in a cylinder charge that there is. Adding fuel (propane) isn't going to help because there's no more 02 left to burn it. On a turbo'd engine there is always a surplus of 02.
True it's still an assumption on my part, but to date everyone I've talked to says it doesn't work on naturally aspirated motors.
So I'm curious if you've actually done it firsthand. If so, I'd really appreciate a detailed report of your setup and your results, as would quite a few other readers...
Cheers
Gary |
Claimjumper (208.186.109.116)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
Gary, First hand is all I deal with, I installed my own designed system over a year ago and can assure you IT WORKS and very well. 4106--8V71N 'A' timed with N65 injectors>>>AND A PROPANE ADDED SYSTEM THAT WORKS >>> (Im not a dealer and do not sell anything) I think your missing the fact that the propane is mixed with the incomeing air before the compression stroke, then fuel is injected to start combustion, you seem to be hung up on available air. >>>Dan (I love the saying "those who say it cannot be done are usualy passed be those doing it" |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 3:15 pm: | |
Dan, That sounds REALLY interesting. You're the first person I've found without a turbo that got one to work... or at least the first to share it! Excellent. Do you have any photos of the install, diagrams of how you did it, and comparisons to how things worked vs before you put it all in? This kind of info would sure make others including myself have an easier time deciding to try it out. That's how "rumors" finally become fact... enough people have success and share the facts with others. Thanks for being one of the pioneers!!!
So my performance questions for you...
(1) When do you use it and for how long
(2) How much propane do you use
(3) How much horsepower increase, (or can it be stated in terms like how fast it used to go up a given grade vs how fast it does now, everything else being equal)
(4) With the added performance, what happens to your engine temperature vs how it acted prior to the system, and if you have an EGT, what's the comparison before and after
(5) how did you determine when "enough is enough" as pertains to how much propane to inject?
Thanks!! I'll probably be trying this fairly soon myself based on your experiences...
Regards
Gary
Oh.. yes, you are absolutely correct about "those who say it cannot be done". The problem is that a LOT of people who say "it can be done" are simply full of poo and have nothing to back their claims with. It's for everyone else to decide who really is and who isn't!! Hee hee isn't the world a fun place!!! |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.249.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
Gary, I'd have to say I agree with everyone you've talked to and Mr. Sharkey. Combustion, we all know, is fire, and is dependent on three things: heat, fuel, and oxygen. Take any of the three away and you have no fire. In an ideal combustion chamber all the fuel is burned with all the oxygen in the heat of compression. In the real world that isn't quite the case, BUT a well tuned engine pumping black smoke at altitude is the result of not enough oxygen in the rarer air at height to burn the available fuel in the heat of compression. IF a well tuned engine smokes at altitude due to the lack of adequate oxygen to burn the available fuel, adding more fuel will not change the equation, except that too much fuel for the availble oxygen becomes WAY too much fuel... Having said that, if someone has an idea about a nice simple nitrous system, nitrous being an OXYGENATOR, that I'd like to hear about!
Brian |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.22)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
http://www.bullydog.com/sale.pl?item=010800
This is a propane injection system for Pickups (Cummins, powerstroke, duramax, etc..)
Seems to be a common upgrade.
Gary (The other one) |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 6:02 pm: | |
Brian, I agree with your logic too. But if Dan says it works and backs it up with some real data, I'll certainly listen. I've been keenly interested in this for about two years now, and read everything I can find, and talked to everyone I can find. To date, no one has changed my mind about non-turbo engines.
The one thing that would/could make it work without a Turbo is that the general consensus calls this system a "catalytic" system instead of an additional fuel. If this is the true method in which propane injection works (ie the propane acts as a catyalyst to cause more complete combustion of the diesel fuel, instead of being burnt as a fuel itself), then additional oxygen may not be necessary. I'm open to suggestion, and especially open to fact.
That said, Go look at Bullydog's site. Theory of operation or technical info? Nothing. They just want to sell you something.
Go look at Diesel Performance Products
http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/home.html
Again, no real technical info, and non-turbo engines are simply not mentioned. Again, they just want to sell you something.
Go look at Mr Sharley's writeup. It's technical, extensive, based on firsthand experience, and he pretty much says non-turbo does not work very well. He tried it. And he doesn't give a rats ass about selling you anything... he's just writing it up to share his experiences.
http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm
So to date, I've seen nothing that says it will really be a good thing on a non turbo engine, with exception of Dan's comments which I am anxiously awaiting more info on.
IT's also completely logical that if a naturally aspirated engine was tuned down from its possible maximum horsepower, and already running "lean" so to speak, propane injection might make it look like it really works. But then just turning the injection pump up or changing to larger injectors might have had the same effect in that engine...
So as I said, I'm always listening.
Cheerio
Gary |
Claimjumper (208.186.110.108)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:06 pm: | |
>>>My view on this subject as an engine builder/tuner for most of my life, and one who has a system in place that works exceptionly well for me, is that the propane is mixed with the incomeing air and raises the volatility of the air but not to the point of ignition. then compression is accomplished and finally the fuel is added to start ignition. at this point the fuel/air charge is capable of more horsepower than without the added propane....forget the fact that the propane is a fuel and look at the added volitilty of the complete combination entering the cylinder>>>now my experience,>>> when climbing with my coach and I hit the propane switch, the engine comes on smoothly with much more pulling power, I can switch it off midgrade and it will sag noticely, then switch on and it will come on hard again.>>>The most fun is around town and mixing it up with faster/lighter traffic, I can start out normaly from a light with other traffic, hit the switch and excelerate hard with cars around me and negotiate traffic much easier..>>>My coach is a 4106 that weighs 25400#.>>>Its been an interesting discussion but I do not intend to try to convince or prove anything to anyone...That being said ::NO ADDITIONAL HEAT WHEN CLIMBING:::NO ADDITIONAL SMOKE WHEN CLIMBING::: my last trip was 600 mi. mostly at altitude and many grades, total propane use for the trip 14 gal. (cooking, heat and engine use underway) I feel that I used at least 14 gal. less deisel for the trip just in shorter climb times than normal.>>>Dan |
Tuck-04 (64.53.32.37)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 12:15 am: | |
Claimjumper would you email me I have a couple of question I want to ask you.
You will see this same msg under another discussion. My mouse has a mind of its own sometimes.
tuckerman@nu-z.net
Thanks
Tuck |
Mr. Sharkey (64.42.111.186)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:31 pm: | |
Oh look what I found while scanning my statistics this morning, a thread about LPG that mentions me!
Hi Gary! Hi everyone!
Yes, the assumption that LPG does not add anything to a diesel engine after the stoicheometric charge point is reached is essentially correct. Adding fuel to a fully-fueled combustion will add no power. -However- Replacing a *portion* of the diesel fuel with LPG can lead to benefits, as the LPG still has an affect on combustion.
My experiments indicate that LPG has a very small effect on N/A diesel engines at full throttle. The effects are more noticable at partial throttle where there is excess air in the charge. If you are experiencing great increases in power on a N/A engine at WOT while using gas, then you weren't injecting to maximum fueling to begin with.
Also, although it's a technical nit-pick, LPG does NOT act as a catalyst. In order for it to do that, it would have to react with the diesel at a molecular level and cause a fundamental chemical change in the fuel before combustion. LPG acts instead as an accelerant, enhancing the spread of the flame front of the burning diesel fuel. Since it is mixed with the intake air, it is present in all parts of the combustion cylinder, and can assist in spreading the flame front to cooler, hard-to-reach areas along cylinder walls and at the apex of piston-to-cylinder wall contact.
Dan is right about no additional heat. Properly used, LPG will actually lower EGT's, as the efficiency of the diesel combustion is increased. More of the available BTU's in the diesel go to the wheels instead of the exhaust and cooling system.
(BTW, my server is down until next week. No mail, no web site. Let's hope I don't get my hands on the SYSOP before then!!!!) |
|