| Author | Message | ||
| Tom Phillips (Fortyniner)
Registered Member Username: Fortyniner Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 66.93.216.253 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Im posting this on a couple of boards hoping someone can tell me if the starter on a 4106 be removed working entirely from the top access panel? I cannot get a socket on the lower nut! Its parked on a dirt drive so I cant really jack it up and go from below and I can move it back to the concrete pad. And yup, it really is the starter sadly. Tom P. | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 186 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 72.172.36.62  Rating: N/A |
Yes Tom, it can be removed that way. In fact I wouldn't want to lay under the bus and try to work that monster MT42 out of it's perch. To get the M***** F******* (MF for short) bolt out, it's always been easiest for me if I use a 12 point socket and what's known as a wobble extension. My preferred choice of socket is an old Craftsman that I got while trying to remove the bolts in a truck with a 318 Detroit. Here's a hint, re-clock the nose of the starter before reinstalling so that the solenoid is pointed outward just a bit more. there are Allen screws that hold it in and it has multiple clock positions. I'm about 2 1/2 hours north of you on 79. If you could get up here, I could get it out for you. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 267 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.223.24  Rating: N/A |
I can't help you with the access as I don't have a '06 I can help you with getting under a bus on dirt/gravel. use shop air/portable compressor to air up the bus then put a hardwood block between the bump stop area and the frame, on both the left and right side .You can access this area using just your arm in the rear wheel well. Don't stick you head in there unless you have had enough of fixing buses forever!! Now you need to get a bottle jack under the rear axle, I lift on suspension connection points. One of the advantages of lifting on gravel/dirt is if you don't have clearance for your jack you can dig clearance. You will need a couple of 12" squares of 3/4" plywood as a base for the jack. You need 2 jacks to do this, lift with one, then add blocking and lift with the other. This is dangerous as a bus will easily and happily fall off a bottle jack, much easier than a car or pick up will. So you need to be very careful only positioning jacks and blocking at arms length. I like to lift til I can get 4"-6" of blocking under the wheel. You need to have chocked the other wheels. Much better than all of the above is a nice big trolley jack meant for lifting trucks or buses, if you can beg borrow or steal one of those you will be way ahead of the game, but still do not go under a bus sitting on just a jack, the rear is just to heavy. blocking blocking blocking.....safety safety sfaety. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 266 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 69.171.161.221  Rating: N/A |
Dallas is dead on correct. I used a 12pt to break it loose then while supporting it (should have undone that one first BTW) I used 1/4 inch drive tools to twist that sucker out, more wiggle room, thinner walled sockets. It sure would be dang handy if they used a stud instead of a bolt. A long rod coupling nut would be sweet too, IF you could find the proper grade. | ||
| Bill 340 (Bill_340)
Registered Member Username: Bill_340 Post Number: 128 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.202.245.60  Rating: N/A |
We had that problem on our eagle once and we Dug a hole under the bus and slid in under, I unbolted the bottom and slid the starter up a board and out the rear, started the bus and pulled forward, then filled the hole, really safe as the bus cant go any lower,NOW I know the Eagle did not have air bags, but setting on the bottom is still as far as it goes.. | ||
| Tom Phillips (Fortyniner)
Registered Member Username: Fortyniner Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 32.97.110.53 Rating: N/A |
I really appreciate the responses! Good to know is should be possible to get out from the top. Dallas thanks for the assist offer. I thought about push starting but there is a shed at the end of the drive so it would be tricky. Im saving that for a last ditch effort. Ill pickup a 3/8 15/16 12pt socket and give the wobble extension a try. It feels like a stud/nut but I cant see it. Dallas, since your in this area any idea what a built starter should run? -Tom P. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 978 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.251.187.142 Rating: N/A |
Tom, not Dallas here but Houston Alternator on North Shepherd Dr 713-869-0502 they are around 275 bucks you get what you pay for with a rebuild and I never had one of their rebuilt fail me they use all new Delco parts only good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on December 06, 2010) | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 72.172.36.62 Rating: N/A |
I would go with what Clifford said... I put one of their starters in a Flx with a 6V53 and it's been there about 10 years with no problem. Looking at the other board, I would advise you to look at the solenoid first.... It looks like what has happened is that the little plate that makes contact inside the solenoid has some burnt spots. Before you try removing the starter, remove all the nuts on the solenoid rear cap and pull it off. I'm not talking about the whole solenoid, just the rear Bakelite piece. Inside you will see a round copper coloured disk, probably with some deeply burned marks on it. There is a small nut holding it on, remove the nut and remove the disk. Clean up the face of the disk with sand paper until the disk is shiny again. If the burns are too bad, turn the disk over and use it that way. When you are done with the afore mentioned tasks, clean up the contacts of the large posts inside the caps. Now put it all back together. Waa-Law! the solenoid will engage, the starter will turn. The engine will fire, the engine will start, the engine will run! The explanation for this is that at some point, there was a bad connection between the batteries and the starter, or the batteries were low. This increases resistance and allows the contacts in the solenoid contacts to burn into the disk. Fixing it this way isn't permanent, but it will last for a year or so, as long as you keep the batteries up and have good connections. Check all connections, EVERY Connection, Ground, Hot, Relay, Switch and breaker. There is a notorious connection between the battery, the bulkhead and the starter that is known to cause problems. Take it apart, clean it, replace the bolt with a copper/brass/plated bolt. The galvanic reaction between dis-similar metals will cause problems sooner or later, and your bus probably has a million bad miles on it. If that doesn't work, then replace the starter, but you've saved yourself a few hours of work and a lot of swearing if it does work,and only added an hour or two of work at most. Good luck! Did I mention... . . . . CLEAN UP ALL CONNECTIONS AND CONNECTORS? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1391 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.34  Rating: N/A |
"There is a notorious connection between the battery, the bulkhead and the starter that is known to cause problems. Take it apart, clean it, replace the bolt with a copper/brass/plated bolt. The galvanic reaction between dis-similar metals will cause problems sooner or later, and your bus probably has a million bad miles on it." These bolts (2) , if not cleaned every so often can cost a V regulator (don't ask). I now use solid copper bolts and washers for the best conductivity. If you see workers at a mid transformer site , stop and just ask , usually a pair is no problem. FF | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 454 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 66.87.0.67  Rating: N/A |
Hi Dallas & FF – My starter seems okay (knock on wood) but yor advice sounds like good preventive maintenance. Might save a problem, or tip me too any upcoming problems. But am I asking for trouble – as in ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it’? I’m mostly worried about messing with the solenoid... what're chances I’d screw up a perfectly good piece of equipment? Well, with me there’s always a chance but you know what I mean. Nellie (Message edited by vivianellie on December 07, 2010) | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 194 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 72.172.36.62 Rating: N/A |
Hi Nellie! Problems with the starting/charging system on the MCI's are a bit different. I think you have a 5C? If I recall correctly, the starter cable goes from the starter to a junction on the diagonal support at the forward end of the engine bay. Also on that junction is the alternator connection to charge the batteries. With high charging/low batteries/bad grounds/dragging starter, the Bakelite this junction uses as an insulator becomes brittle and burnt. It's been known to fail at the most inopportune times, like if you kill the engine at a stop light. The wire terminals at this junction also get hot and arc or burn. The best preventive maintenance is to check this junction a few times a year. Don't just look at it, take it apart and clean and inspect. Check, clean, replace as needed ALL battery and cable grounds, especially the ones from the starter to the engine, the engine to the body and if I were you and could find some extra cable, I would run a ground directly from the starter to the batteries. Messing with the solenoid isn't a big deal, just a couple of nuts and a couple of screws to get the back end of it off, however, I wouldn't mess with it until you need to. If it works, don't fix it! Good luck! Dallas | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 404 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 67.253.124.108 Rating: N/A |
would it not be a good idea to disconnect the batteries before working on the solenoid?? | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 69.171.161.129 Rating: N/A |
details details, always someone with those pesky details. All you are trying to do is prevent Tom & Nellie from getting a charge out of their Bus maintenance experience... killjoy! | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 198 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 72.172.36.62 Rating: N/A |
Gee, Thomas, if they are bright enough, they'll figure that out. If they aren't bright enough...... They soon will be! | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 274 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 69.171.161.173 Rating: N/A |
What potentially BRILLIANT advice you give! | ||
| Tom Phillips (Fortyniner)
Registered Member Username: Fortyniner Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 66.93.216.253 Rating: N/A |
The answer is........ brushes! Or more precisely brush springs. Seems the previous rebuilder didnt install all the brush springs correctly so only a few brushes were contacting the commutator! commutator is a little pitted and the working brushes are smoked. Im now debating whether to drive over to houston and get it rebuilt or try our local texas alternator guys. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1750 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20  Rating: N/A |
Tom - I'm sure your local guys can handle it, this starter really isn't that complicated. Just make sure they understand that it's for a LH engine! FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| Tom Phillips (Fortyniner)
Registered Member Username: Fortyniner Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2010 Posted From: 66.93.216.253 Rating: |
Update. Was able to get the lower nut loose using the 15/16 3/8 drive socket. I had to reach in from the side and use my finger to remove the nut entirely since the socket still hit the block before the nut came off the stud. I tied the starter to a long bar coming in from the side and with the help of my 10 year old son was able to slide it out the side. Only three of the eight brushes were making good contact and those were smoked from the current along with some commutator damage.The brush holder assembly was distorted and brushes were either jammed or the springs had slipped and no longer pushed on brushes. I turned the commutator then completely reworked the brush holder assembly silver brazing some cracks and straighting the base plates in the mill vice. Reassembled with some new brushes. Looks better. spins on bench test nicely so Ill install it this weekend and see how it does. Tom P. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1107 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.1.12  Rating: N/A |
Tom glad it is working out for the good. Looks like you have it all under control Good Job!! Gomer | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 214 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213  Rating: N/A |
Well done Tom! I hope it works for you | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 462 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 66.87.1.73 Rating: N/A |
Wow, Tom - You're my newest hero! And you're from Texas to boot. Gotta get out that way, see some of you guys. Good job. Nellie Wilson PS. Spanky, I'll be getting back to you (in case you're lurking). |
