| Author |
Message |
edwin b (209.240.198.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 4:25 pm: | |
I've put in a turbo 671 ec in my 04 and having problems with the heat on hot days. Its getting over 200. I put misters on the new radiator and that didn't help much, I had to use 30 gallons of water on a 300 mile trip. Will an oil cooler help? Can I put another radiator some place? Can I put in a bigger fan? Any ideas? |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 4:58 pm: | |
If misters did not make a significant difference then I suspect you have a clogged system or hoses or wrong fan shroud. Aftter I had the radiator cleaned on my 4104, it made a world of difference. Had to flush all the gunk out of the engine and hoses also. Dave at Southern Oregon Diesel can get you a fan that has extra blades and moves a lot more air, but be sure and check your system first for any blockage.
Richard |
boogiethecat (68.186.4.239)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 4:58 pm: | |
I have the same problem, but it's getting under control very quickly.
The first thing I did was call Flex-a-lite and get a fan that has 8 blades at a much steeper pitch than the one that came with my bus (which only had 6 blades). I needed a 22" unit but all they had was 24", so I bought one anyway and turned it down 2 inches using my vertical milling machine. Interesting job (a bit scary) but it worked fine and was easy.
Here's their site:
http://www.flex-a-lite.com/heavy2/
That got things happy on all but the hotter days, engine staying at 180 now instead of hovering around 200.
Next I installed a mister system... simple solenoid off the house water system that feeds 6 drip-irrigation misters mounted in front of the radiatior. That was the last straw, and now no matter what I do or where I go, I never exceed 195 even driving thru Death Valley on a hot day with the engine air conditioning blasting full (it's condenser is mounted in front of my engine radiator).
Im surprised that the misters don't help you. I wonder if you have good coverage when the engine is ripping at full speed and the bus is moving. It took me a bit of messing around to get best coverage because things are so differnt when the bus in moving.
I use the finest spray nozzles I can get for drip-irrigation, they use about 20 gallons in 6 hours... I only turn it on for a few minutes and it takes my engine temp down about 15 degrees, then I turn it off for 5-10 minutes, etc
BUT...I don't like using my house water up while driving, so I've just purchased a very nice BIG oil cooler from an ebay source. 24" x 24" x 2-3/4" thick for $200, and they have a lot more of them availiable. I'll be sticking an electric fan on it.. I'll report how it works when I get it installed and go on my next trip, but any way you look at it, taking heat out of the engine in any way posssible has to help! (You only need to be careful that you don't turn on the fan on icy cold days or you may overcool the engine oil)
Check these guys for the cooler, it's a $900 monster, new, for $200!! this one is a completed auction but he has more. Great for trannys too... kinda overkill in any case but if you have the room it's a great deal. The ad says 3/4" thick but it's a typo. it's really 2-3/4"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2558596583&category=1267
You can call Greg (the seller) at 406.727.7700 if you want one...
Cheers
Gary Stadler |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.249.117)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 7:09 pm: | |
Misters on a NEW radiator, and it didn't help much...misters should make an easily seen difference, I agree with Richard, my first choice would
be to look to see if the shroud was properly fitted, then I might try to flush the cooling system. If the problem continues I might rebuild the water pump but I'd be more likely to think you don't have enough radiator for your needs.
Gary, I think you have a great idea adding coolers, I plan on adding one each for the engine oil and the tranny as well. However, as a mechanic, I'd ask you to go one step further to protect your components; add an oil thermostat with a bypass back to the return lines, this way your equipment can run at the temps they were designed for and once that is reached, the coolers can help keep them there! I'd also use a thermostatically controlled switch for your fan(s)
Brian |
Craig Craddock (24.127.66.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 7:32 pm: | |
You stated Turbo 671 EC and new radiator I am not exactly sure what the turbo EC is. What is the BTU output of the Turbo engine and what is the cooling capacity of the new radiator. Could a mismatch here be your biggest problem. Do you have extra row or 2 of tubes in the new radiator? Too small of a radiator/cooling system combo. Do you have the higher volume water pump as used on the turbo engines. It requires a housing change besides the different water pump. Part of the reason for this pump is the blower on a turbo turns at a slower rpm. The water pump is driven off of the blower.
You might even need a larger diameter fan. Like in the 8V's or Gary's repitched fan idea to get the proper air volume needed by the turbo engine.
Like they say there is a lot more then just adding a turbo. You could need a cooling 50% [ 1 and 1/2 times larger ] larger then the original 671 had depending on your new horsepower output.
Good luck!
Craig C. |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.249.117)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 9:45 pm: | |
yep, that's what I was thinking too, Craig |
boogiethecat (166.154.155.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 2:26 am: | |
Brian, I was/am definitely planning on a thermostatically controlled switch for the oil cooler fan. I was also banking on the place that the cooler will be mounted (just over my front axle, up in the space between frame rails, horizontally oriented), barely any airflow will naturally occur unless the fan's going... but your idea of a temp-controlled bypass is good! Any idea where to find one other than making it from McMaster parts?
cheers
gary |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 4:21 am: | |
Ed -
Nobody's mentioned it yet, so I'll ask the following two questions:
~ Do you have one of those deflectors hanging from the rear bumper to prevent damage to the toad?
~ Does your coach have a full-width mudflap running completely across the rear of the coach behind the back axle, or just individual ones behind the duals?
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
John Rigbyj (24.174.239.244)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
RJ
I n
know the answer to the first one but what,s the answer to the second one??
A;so Gary What type of bus do you have?
John |
two dogs (67.30.23.5)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 9:36 am: | |
autozone has an adjustable thermostat fan switch |
edwin b (209.240.198.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 10:38 am: | |
Thanks Guys
RJ I only have mud flaps on the rear wheels. The ec means electronicly controlled. The engine came off a transit bus in LA and all I put on it was bell housing for the transmission and the old fan housing for the motor mounts to fit. I made a better fan shroud and it helped but not enough. I'm going to try a larger fan, the new engine had a much larger fan so I'll start there.
Thanks guys!
Being a bus nut, this site has been the best thing thats happened to me! |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.249.117)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:21 pm: | |
Gary, I took a look on the web and there are pages of oil thermostats, including several industrial thermostat/oil handling companies... Mocal automotive oil thermostats seems to offer a wide range of fitting sizes and perhaps a wider degree of availability.
Brian |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
Ed -
The 4106 and later GM PD models came from the factory with a full-width mudflap. Besides it's normal duty, it's main purpose was to create a low-pressure area underneath the powertrain, thereby helping to draw the additional heat generated by the 8V71 out of the engine compartment.
Since you are now generating more heat with the turbo motor, I suggest you follow GM's lead. Take one of your mudflaps off, head to your local industrial rubber supplier, have the parts guy help you find some conveyor-belt material equal in thickness to the mudflaps, come home, install it under your coach, and go for a drive.
The other question that comes up from reading your post and that you don't mention, is if you've had the radiator serviced by a shop that specializes in HD truck radiators, and if you've replaced the radiator hoses. There have been numerous postings here and on other message boards about hoses collapsing internally, restricting flow and causing hot-running conditions. Obviously a plugged radiator will do the same.
Oh, and the answer to the question regarding the deflector hanging from the back bumper to keep debris off the toad? Read the above two paragaphs - by having one of these things, you shift that low pressure area too far back, and, in essence, "trap" the hot air within the engine compartment.
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
John Rigby (24.174.239.244)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
RJ
When cruising at 65/70 rpm does the flap stay down and create the air baffle or it would seem to me it would perhaps be blown up by the air being forced under the bus??
If there is some froof that it does stay down and does the job then I will probably add it to my 4104, as I need all the help I can get to keep it cool when running out west.
When I install my pit I am going to add an additional radiator to the front of the 04 and supply extra cooling. |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 3:02 pm: | |
John -
IF you use material equal in stiffness to a HD truck mudflap, yes, it will stay down sufficiently to do what it was designed to do.
IIRC, I believe the RTS's from GM also came with this full-width flap, and over 22,000 of them have been built - think GM knew what it was doing?
In addition to this, you can also do a similar trick with 3/4" aluminum "angle iron", available in three-foot sections for less than five bucks from HD or Lowes. Mount it vertically on the leading edge of the radiator door, but in such a way that it doesn't interfere with opening it.
Another thought: When pulling grades where you've got to downshift, keep the rpm between 1800-1900 on a partial throttle, not floored. When you start seeing black smoke, back off the throttle slightly. If the speed falls off quickly, it's time to catch the next lower gear. Black smoke while pulling a grade = overheated motor. Gear it down. . .
IMHO, going to the effort and expense to install a front-mounted radiator should be your absolute last resort, most turbo'd coaches don't use one, you shouldn't have to either.
HTH
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
edwin b (209.240.198.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 4:11 pm: | |
Isn't the radiator in the old air unit inline with the whole water system? Because my squirl fan isn't working. Could it be as simple as that?
edwin |
ggypsy (66.21.166.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 9:06 pm: | |
Ed..just finishing up the same conversion.671ta ddec into 04..how many passes is your radiator? which fan are you running? have you heat wrapped your turbo and exhaust manifold ? the only problem Ive had was getting the temp down in the engine compartment.thus heat wrapping the turbo and exhaust...had previously gone to a larger rad and late model plastic 8 bladed fan..better shroud..1/2" belting for a vacumn breaker behind the rear wheels..and a 2500cfm fan through the trans door to help get rid of heat..tried scoop on rad door first now running air dam in front of rad door (just under 1 1/2" high)..this all came from trying to stop an overheating problem with my original engine...got it down to where it would run 185-190 in 120degree weather...any ??just email me gg |
edwin b (209.240.198.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 9:45 pm: | |
gypsy
I have the stock fan and going to try the 8 bladed as soon as i can get one. Also the air dam and the belting. I've thought of exhausting the hot engine compartment through the trans side or the bubble I had to put on rear door for clearance for the turbo exhaust, which is wrapped.
Thanks
edwin |
Doug (68.83.22.146)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 7:57 am: | |
04's equiped from new with hydrashift had louvers in the trans door to allow for extra heat evacuation from the heat created by the trans. |
Craig Craddock (24.127.66.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 1:44 pm: | |
1. I have a friend that tried a entire expanded metal transmission door in a 04.
2. He added a electric fan for exhaust later, in both cases he could not tell any differences and has replaced it with the original.
3. I have heard of the rear doors being propped open, I do not know if this works. Hear Greyhound did this at one time????
4. I Las Vegas I have seen a number of entire engine doors made of expanded metal. Does anyone know if this helps.
5.On by 4104 a 54 model and my friends 57 we both have provisions for the air dam RJ was talking about in front of the engine compartment. I wonder if this was not added before the 4106 models or are ours retrofits, as they are both old hound dogs. |
ggypsy (66.21.165.2)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | |
We have had entirely different experience with exhast in trans door. First tried no door at all (monitering with digital ac temp gage) and had no difference.then installed just fan in opening..no difference...then plywood door with hole cut for fan..this dropped temp over 100 degrees....we also were monitering air flow down sides with yarn taped on foot centers the middle back and 6 inch centers for last 5 foot...thats why air dam in front of rad door is 1 1/2"tall . Shorter dams did not change air flow enough to be noticeable...worked for me gg |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 2:30 pm: | |
Hmm....
On my Bluebird Pusher, it's a T-Drive, we have the engine in the back, radiator, filters, etc on the curbside and absolutely nothing on the driver's side. That is were all the crapola for the Transit air conditioning compressor, etc... was.
I recently rebuilt the doghouse/bed and am also at the point of Insulating all the Engine compartment.
There is a ton of storage space on that side of the engine, I was thinking about boxing it in, and using a engine-room blower (Marine) to circulate air in the engine compartment.
Anybody have any experience with this? I have a small 30' bus and every inch of storage is valuable.
Gary |
Craig Craddock (24.127.66.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 3:07 pm: | |
ggypsy
If I understand you correctly basically you your plywood door and hole it is like it is shrouded.
100 degrees is very significiant. I will have to try it.
The air dam principal I do not full understand. Is it just a 1 1/2" piece of metal sticking out of the side to the forward of the radiator that breaks the slip stream down the side of the RV?
Craig C |
edwin b (209.240.198.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 6:04 pm: | |
Does anyone know if the radiator in the old air compartment is inline with the whole water system. If so, how can it be removed? This could be my fix.
edwin |
Doug (68.83.22.146)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 6:12 pm: | |
The full width splash gaurd was standard on the 4104 as well as all other GM Transverse engines I beleive |
ggypsy (66.21.165.2)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 7:14 pm: | |
Ed the one in my bus was hooked in to the bus system with a valve just above it to take it out of the system...really not sure how it would affect the cooling of the main motor though unless the pony was still installed and running..gg |
FAST FRED (67.75.111.178)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 5:12 am: | |
"and using a engine-room blower (Marine) to circulate air in the engine compartment"
These are usually used to push air/fumes up from the bilge (so any gas fumes will be exhausted outside) and don't do the volume for cooling.
You might consider one of the bigger car radiator OEM units.
Recently got a used M-Benz unit and there really nice.
Lots of air leaving is lots of cooling,
FAST FRED |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:51 am: | |
Hey Fred,
when they closed down all the Military bases here in the Bay area, gigantic hoards of Surplus stuff appeared everywhere. (I have an air starter for a jet engine if anyone needs it)
I have some Squirrel cage blowers that look like bilge blowers, and they probably are, but for significantly larger engine rooms.
I have the ones you're talking about on my 56', and you're right, they'd be too small.
Also, My wife has a '77 240D (Only diesel, manual trans, mercedes ever imported) and I was looking at the fan assy. very easy to adapt.
On the other hand, there are some new, aftermarket "S-Blade" fans for performance use, I think I can stack a couple of those on my radiator as additional cooling and have more efficiency than the benz unit.
We are talking about two different systems here though--one is additional CFM through the radiator (Pancake Fan) the other is engine room air circulation. (Bilge/Whatever blower)
Any way that's where my thinking is at.
Gary |
John Rigby (65.112.227.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 3:10 pm: | |
I was thinking of puting slits in my transmission door on my 04. Mounting a 12volt fan on the inside and puting luvers I have purchased to dress the outside up.I think this is what GG is aluding to what do you guys think, will it make much of a diffrence??
John |