| Author | Message | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.48)
Rating: |
That other thread got too long. You might look at this link: http://www.alcoawheels.com/heavy/strength/index.asp | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
OK, from the other thread-- As far as Bernie being a competent professional-- Part of being Professional is accepting what is contemporary in the industry that you're in. "No Alloy Wheels" is....is.....quirky, to say the least. As for leaking, my third car had Mags, and almost every car since has. Even my New cars have alloy wheels, also, my wife's 240D. I have Never, ever, ever, had mags leak. Never. Not one. Ever. Maybe I've been real lucky. I have had to clean steel rims for the tire shop across the street though, they couldn't get the bead to seat. I have seen the welds fail on steel wheels, but to be fair, I have seen about an equal number of Alcoas develop cracks. I have also never seen a side-loaded alcoa fail, I have seen the steel ones fail--Maybe my own experiences are not normal. the link that Don posted is really informative, kinda hard to argue with. I thought the alloy wheel's ability to dissapate brake heat and retain a bead was interesting and something I never thought of. I do know that a one-piece forged alloy wheel will always be truer than a multi-piece steel wheel. Gary | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (198.81.26.104)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, well, Bernie could be described as quirky, I suppose, however I tend to think his bias may be due more to the nature of the vehicles he maintains, namely road maintenance equipment, heavy construction equipment, and equipment transports. Alcoa's website is very nice, but they are hardly unbiased, now are they? As for your success with aluminum automotive rims, I would count myself lucky if I'd had the same results. Certainly I wouldn't give up the aluminum rims I've had but it has be something of an annoyance over the years, like I said you just live with it. Something I thought of that may be a contributing factor, may have to do with the desert climate here. Just a conjecture, but it wouldn't surprize me if pavement temps in the 140's have something to do with it, and the dry climate is kind to steel, we just do not have problems with rust. Someone here mentioned the problem with porosity and had a novel remedy which he's used on aluminum rims: bead blast the inner rim and clear coat it! Brian | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
I guess we'll leave it at that. You have a quirky tire guy. Fair enough. Of course Alcoa is trying to sell something, but I don't think they're fibbing either. I don't have enough time to look around, but there are cases where Aluminum is actually stronger--in the case of performace third-members for example. In that case, however, we ARE comparing to Cast Iron. Yeah Climate may be an issue--the location where we had to clean therust off of the wheels, was in Anti-Arizona (Oregon) where stuff rusts before your eyes. gary | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.47)
Rating: N/A |
Tire guys always have hated the darned things. They have to be so careful not to scratch them all up, use a wrench protector when installing, they are picky about proper torque (does your tire guy use a torque wrench) a few years ago some tire shops would not even touch an alloy rim from a car or pickup I know. There are several "trick" questions to ask a person that claims he is a tire guy, one of the first I find is to simply ask him about inflation pressures for your bus. If he says put in what is shown on the sidewall, find yourself another guy real fast. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Give the man a Cigar! "They have to be so careful not to scratch them all up, use a wrench protector when installing..." I think that's why Bernie hates Alcoas.... Gary | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (198.81.26.104)
Rating: N/A |
Well, in any case rest assured that Bernie, what ever his preference, is a professional... AND I learned today he has been a tire guy since he was 16... He's now 45. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A |
Brian - FWIW, numerous transit agencies are now including Alcoas on their transit buses. I know Sacramento RTA, Santa Clara County VTA, Monterey-Salinas Transit, and Fresno Area Express all have them on their newer equipment (and some refurbished units, too). According to a friend who works in the shop at FAX, one of the reasons they like the aluminum wheels is for better brake heat dissipation, thus providing longer brake life - an important item when you only get 5-8,000 miles on a set of rear brakes, even with a retarder. (BTW, the rear axle does about 65% of the braking on a transit coach, up to nearly 70% with a retarder.) If they can withstand the horrendous abuse a transit bus subjects it's wheels to (especially the RF), they ought to last forever on a coach conversion. . . M2CW, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.248) Rating: N/A |
I prefer steelies--simply because they're much more abuse-tolerant than alloys. Bash an alloy, & it cracks or breaks. Bash a steelie and, at worst, you have to bang it straight. Also, salt does evil things to some alloys. | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.46)
Rating: N/A |
Wait a minute Johnny, most of the long haul trucks and transit buses use alcoa wheels because they crack and break easily? Or did you mean to say something else. Now salt, there is a whole new ballgame of disadvantage there. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Salt (And Fertilizer) are no picnic on Steel wheels either. | ||
| Terry Hays (216.236.69.52)
Rating: N/A |
25 plus years ago when I was trucking cross country many independant truckers would run alcoa's on the front axle. I ask why just there and was told by several that a steel wheel could crack and fail and the aluminum wheel would not. Most wished they could afford them all around but settled for the critical steering axle. I don't know the validity of this, just passing it along. | ||
| Terry Hays (216.236.69.52)
Rating: N/A |
Don KS/TX made a reference to tire pressures. I am here to learn all I can, kinda feels like buss college. How do busses differ when it comes to recommended tire pressure? | ||
| Walter (64.165.11.225) Rating: N/A |
Terry; a bus has a predictable load so you can tune the tire pressure, a truck can be loaded to the max on short notice so they run max pressure. | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.42)
Rating: N/A |
That is a short but accurate answer, the main point that many miss, including tire guys, is that the pressure should ALWAYS be determined by the actual load, never by the tire guy. If you want to be really nice to your tires, you will weigh each end of each axle separately, and put the RECOMMENDED pressure in each tire. Each tire brand has an inflation chart (available on the internet) for each range of loading. Truckers on the other hand, can just use one setting, since usually we go with a full load, or short empty runs that the tires can tolerate. | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.200.112.108)
Rating: N/A |
The way I understand it, you weigh each end of the axle and put what the heavy end requires in BOTH ends. I think this is from the A-Weigh We Go folks who do the weighing and seminars at the FMCA conventions. Jim | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.37)
Rating: N/A |
Well, you could get another longest thread going there. In doing some research to give you an answer, here is a link, that says weigh each tire. I know nothing about the A-Weigh We Go folks you mention. Conversely, Goodyear inflation site allows you to weigh each, determine the pressure for the heaviest tire, then put them all there "for convenience" they say. (meaning that only one tire on the bus will be proper, ALL THE REST will be overinflated, a bad thing.) I will go with this link, since it has a nice bus with a slideout for the header photo! http://www.dickmantires.com/rvwiegh.html | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
this is freakin' nuts! Remember I said I used to do the repairs for the tire shop across the street? look about 20 posts up. That's the one that Don just posted. What are the odds? See you guys later, I'm goin' to buy a lottery ticket. Gary | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.150) Rating: N/A |
"Wait a minute Johnny, most of the long haul trucks and transit buses use alcoa wheels because they crack and break easily? Or did you mean to say something else." I see plenty of semis on Alcoas, so they're obviously strong enough for a bus. However, I've seen alloys break from an impact that would, at worst, bend a steel wheel. You can also hammer a bent steelie straight. With a damaged alloy you're, well, screwed. | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.249.117) Rating: N/A |
As I mentioned before, virtually all of the hundreds of vehicles we have are rough duty, and by the same token, we have maybe two long haul transports with aluminium. The benefits of aluminum rims are on the road, great for semi's great for buses it seems. The fact is, aluminum rims are ARE stronger for a given load, AND more fragile than steel rims, Alcoa can crush all the rims it wants, our college educated engineers spec. our new vehicle purchases and just maybe they know their job... As I mentioned before, Bernie feels, as do I, AND just about every mechanic I've talked to, that especially for OUR purposes, aluminum rims will not handle the abuse. Oh, and Bernie told me virtually the same thing Johnny just re-itterated, that you can usually bend a steelie back straight, but break an alloy and you are screwed. Brian | ||
| lost in the woods (67.233.187.149)
Rating: N/A |
Does everyone drive their buses and trucks into curbs and other objects just to see if the break or crack?I spent 18 years driving crosscountry in the snow,ice,heat etc,I never had a Alcoa crack or a steel one. My 2 cents quit driving into and over things. | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.25)
Rating: N/A |
I did see one Alcoa failure, it was in bad shape. A fellow driver with a load on the toll road in Chicago, had a flat on the left front of a Pete with Alcoas. He decided to go ahead and drive it to an exit on the rim with me following him, they do not stand up very well for high speed long distance with no tire on the rim for sure! | ||
| bluegrass (216.207.2.138) Rating: N/A |
This should settle the argument For years, operators and engineers alike have debated about the strength of truck wheels. Some say steel wheels offer more strength. Others believe aluminum wheels are stronger. To settle the issue, we put our aluminum wheel and "their" steel wheel to the test. Here's what we learned: It took 157,000 pounds to deflect an Alcoa forged wheel two inches. The steel wheel deflected two inches at only 30,000 pounds. Based on the evidence of this test, the Alcoa wheel took a load an astounding 423% greater than the steel wheel. | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.42)
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Sure, but Bernie can beat that steel one back to new with a big sledge hammer, the Alcoa is scrap! | ||
| bluegrass (216.207.2.138) Rating: N/A |
I for one would not want to run on one that had been beat back into shape with a sledge hammer, and I dont believe that Bernie has could aford the Aluminum ones that Is why he beat the steel ones back into shape. and like most tire guys they dont like to mess with Aluminum wheels because they cant use there sledge hammer on them so they run them down Instead. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Bluegrass--If you notice, the text you posted is from the first post on this thread. I would have thought that would have settled the argument then myself, with the first post. I think the sledgehammer method is a joke anyway, Have you ever "Beat" on a steel wheel? they don't "Cooperate" very well. One thing, all the container-haulers around here (Port of Oakland) have steelies on their container frames and all the wheels (Steel) wobble like crazy. On the other hane they can probably drive them for a couple of miles with no tires. gary | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (198.81.26.104)
Rating: N/A |
Well, in fact, Bernie, and our engineers can order and specify any wheels they want... so long as they can justify aluminum, they can get aluminum. You've missed the point, we don't order aluminum for any of our ROUGH DUTY equipment because we run off road, and OFF off road. When you build and maintain roads you have a tendency to be where few vehicles have EVER been. And 'gee whiz' we might even run over a thing or two, aluminum will not hold up to that abuse. Like I said before, you can slowly crush all the rims you want "gee aren't aluminum rims strong!!!" Yes, AND an aluminum rim will break with the same side loading that will bend a steel wheel. Dats a fact Jack! | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.34)
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You know Brian, you may well be correct there. I know NOTHING about their use or suitability on rough terrain, and I can find no data to support any position for side loading or rough terrain, since that is never a factor for street use. By the way, does Bernie have access to a computer? | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (198.81.26.104)
Rating: N/A |
Yes, Don he does, why do you ask? | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.144) Rating: N/A |
"I for one would not want to run on one that had been beat back into shape with a sledge hammer" Well, neither would I...but it's nice to know that if I'm in North Boondocks, Montana on a Sunday morning (when nothing is open, of course) with a bent rim, I can get it straight enough to drive (carefully) on with a 10lb sledge & limp somewhere to get another wheel. I installed hundreds of tires--and am rather proud of the fact I have NEVER damaged an alloy wheel. "I think the sledgehammer method is a joke anyway, Have you ever "Beat" on a steel wheel? they don't "Cooperate" very well." Yes, I have--and I've gotten bent wheels straight enough to hold air & limp to somewhere that the wheel can be replaced. It can certainly take some persuasion (like a 10lb sledge), but it can be done. | ||
| ggypsy (66.21.160.61)
Rating: N/A |
keep hearing right air inflation for load used ,coming from makers air charts..just a ????these are minimum inflation pressures right?have asked all makers with web sites I can find and the ones that have answered have said the charts are recomended minimum pressures for load with sidewall marked pressure max. for tire ...since lower pressures give more flex and flex builds heat...just wondering gg | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Me to, I don't think I could feel anything below my elbows for two or three days. Gary | ||
| Donald L Schwanke (66.82.9.28)
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Not quite sure of the question ggypsy, but over inflation for the load is just as bad on a tire as under inflation, therefore the need for proper inflation. Each manufacturer web site for inflation pressures points this out. | ||
| ggypsy (66.21.160.61)
Rating: N/A |
wrong....overinflation was bad with bias ply tires...upper end of scale of inflation for radials gives better ride better traction and longer tire life due to lower heat...inflation charts are minnimum pressure for given load..they are not pressure for load just minnimum safe starting point.....nearly all modern tire failiures are from under inflation....low pressure adds flex which adds heat which causes the tire to go boom.....if tire is rated at 115m psi and you put in 130 psi then that is over inflation...staying within tire specs is not..show me a manufacturer that says different then I will change my mind gg | ||
| two dogs (66.90.217.84) Rating: N/A |
I'd say underinflation was BAD, and if the center of the tire is wearing,it's 'overinflated' (BAD) | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.26)
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OK GGYPSY, I can see where you are coming from now. Obviously if your assumption was correct, then there would be no need for any manufacturer to even have inflation tables! Overinflation is NOT excess of maximun stated on the tire, overinflation is excess for the load carried! We can all certainly agree that underflation is terrible and by far the major cause of failures, but all manufacturers also state that overinflation is bad too. Here is a site that might help you understand where Goodyear is coming from at least: http://www.goodyear.com/truck/pdf/trucktiretech/TireInflation.pdf In the case of our bus applications, too much pressure for the load not only reduces the tire life from uneven wear, it makes the ride bad, shakes up the furniture, but most of all, a tire that is only riding in the center small part of the tread cannot stop as well nor steer as well. We need the maximum footprint for that. | ||
| two dogs (66.90.217.38) Rating: N/A |
TWO DOGS AGREE!!!! | ||
| ggypsy (66.21.160.61)
Rating: N/A |
go back to goodyear and read again....you are misunderstanding what I said and what goodyear says....read what temp and speed and road conditions inflation guide is for....and it is still min.pressure....and remember radials act unlike bias ply...more pressure more contact patch with in psi load of tire....lower pressure more flex more heat....email goodyyear with your load and tire and see what they say...unless you understand how to use the press tables..figureing load,road temp etc be careful....have run into more people running to low than too high..gg ps ..how about a real world test for wheels...shock load not easy pressure...will keep my bus away from 15ton presses | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.15)
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Well, I cannot follow what you are saying, apparently you are saying the chart is so that if you happen to check your tires, and they are like at 90 lb, the chart is to be used to determine how much cargo to unload instead of inflating the tire? Senseless! It appears to me that you are reading into the chart that there is no max, no proper, only min pressure? If anyone else can see why we are apparently not communicating, please jump right in there. If I am understanding you, then you are saying this site is total bull: http://www.dickmantires.com/rvwiegh.html The information to the contrary of your post is just too overwhelming to ignore I feel. | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.162.114.10)
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It's amazing what a full moon will do even to a bulletin board! Brings out all sorts, doesn't it? Jim | ||
| ggypsy (66.21.160.61)
Rating: N/A |
try it again...these are all tawa charts they are a starting point for inflation at loads they are all the miniumn pressure you can use before the tire goes boom,,,,they are the starting point for inflation...they are not the pressure to use for the listed weight...that is decided by temp and highway speed..gg psthere is no information contary to my post...all the sites listed say the same thing you just have to read all the information not just one or two pages...but all the techinical on inflation...the charts are of no use without the speed, load and temp charts... | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.40)
Rating: N/A |
I give up. I have no idea what you are trying to say, but it makes no sense to me, and as stated it is obvious you must be wrong.. PART of the chart is the information for specific use such as speed etc. Nowhere does it indicate this proper pressure is a "boom" limit as you indicate. Who would care about that anyway? | ||
| ggypsy (68.210.184.201)
Rating: N/A |
Don...really simple you posted the web site for goodyear...every thing I have quoted came from that web site...I have not changed any of thier information around...nowhere does it say these charts are proper pressure...just a starting pressure to let you figure out your proper inflation...the min pressure is the lowest allowable pressure for a given load that should not (in lawyers and engineers opinions)cause failure(boom)...also check at what temp and speed these charts are basing their inflation recomendations on(its on the chart)...so you say goodyear is wrong????Hmmmm gg | ||
| mark (65.40.225.193) Rating: N/A |
Regarding the debate on the strength of aluminum vs steel wheels, I think aluminum wheels got a bad rap when tire guys lumped all 'alloy' wheels together. Orriginally, "mag" wheels were made of magnesium. Those wheels were lighter, but I don't think they were as strong as steel OR aluminum. Just my un-skooled thoughts! Mark 75 gillig 636D |
