| Author | Message | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
I have decided to replace six tires before I make the journey down to Arcadia, FL in December. For about $300 each for six that need replaced, I have the choice of 16 ply Dunlops or 14 ply Kelly's. Bus weighs about #40,000. Anybody have any actual experience with either of these brands? I am replacing Michlins as I am not too happy with the mileage they have provided. Price includes mounting and balancing and moving steer axle tires to bogie axle. Any advice appreciated. Richard | ||
| Bill Gerrie (216.185.73.251)
Rating: N/A |
Richard I would go with the 16 ply rated tire to carry that amount of weight. I'm suprised you didn't get the performance from the Michelin tires that you expected. I changed to Michelin tires about 6 years ago and have been very happy with the results. My tires are still like new, no cupping and even tread wear. I have a set of Centramatic wheel balancers on each wheel and they really make a difference to the tire wear and produce a smooth ride all the time. Bill | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905) (68.168.57.30)
Rating: N/A |
Too bad Michelin is a French company, but I'll only run Michelins on my coach. No sidewall cracking problems like some and consistant quality. Don't need so much weight to balance as some others.Go with the 16 ply for the extra margin of safety. | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.76) Rating: N/A |
Honestly, for the drive axle, I'd grab 4 Bandags. We run them (11R22.5) on a GMC Fishbowl at work with good results thus far. My conversion will also run them on the drive. I have no complaints with Goodyears, either, or Cooper. | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.143.177.152)
Rating: N/A |
The ply rating seems to have been replaced by the load range rating. Weigh the bus and put the appropriate load range tires on. On my Prevost I am using load range 'H' with Goodyear (previously Michelin) tires. I like the way Goodyears handle and ride. Seems to be more positive to steering input than the Michelins. Michelins seem to roll too much and slow the response time to steering. The ride is similar and tire life is dictated more by time than mileage at my 12,000 miles per year. Jim | ||
| jmaxwell (66.81.63.42) Rating: N/A |
I would go with the 16 ply for sure. As for the Michelins, I too am not satisfied with them due to excessive sidewall failures. Same problem with Firestone, but they were all 14 ply, not 16. I now have a mix of makes in 16 (11r) ply on the Grumman (due to the sidewall failure of the Michelins and Firestones) and am most happy with the Toyo on the front and the Generals on the back. Neoplan has Goodyear(12R 16ply) and they ride nice, but I have not put enough miles on it to vouch for wear. Worst I ever had were Kelly's on a Holiday Rambler Class A,; wore out in less than 15k. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.222)
Rating: N/A |
Jim has the best idea, weigh it and get the proper load rating for the weight! A lot of the brand arguement comes down to tread life, so do you need to put out twice the bucks for tires that will run you for 25 years over the 20 year tire, when in 5 or 10 they will be rotten? Crazy. If the "extra margin of safety" is valid, then we should all be running light truck tires on our Honda cars for that reason. I don't think so. I was surprised at the lack of response from Johnny's post. Bandags are RECAPS. I ran them for years on my bus, and believe they are probably the best of all for the rears. A million miles on a Kenworth, heavy load for the highway, and NEVER had a problem with them. Lots of false information about recaps out there. | ||
| Bob Baldwin (Bob4106) (66.56.100.54)
Rating: N/A |
I seen a 4106 that ran recaps and tore out his wheel well,body damage and the electric panel. when a cap let go. What a mess all the steel from the belts of the tires get in the panel and shorted it all out had to rewire the panel. No thanks for recaps for me | ||
| Don KS/TX (205.187.92.222)
Rating: N/A |
Uhhh, Bob, there are NO steel wires in the recap, at least not on a Bandag or any I ever saw. Often when a normal tire lets loose of its tread, for whatever reason, since it comes apart, people THINK it was a recap. Stop and look at the "road alligators" and you will probably NEVER find a Bandag, only Michelins, THEY have steel in them. There may be good reasons for not running recaps, but that is not one of them. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.7.58)
Rating: N/A |
Damn Don, You're right! All the road aligators I see, normally they have the steel in them, and I still think: "Dammned Recaps" but you're right, the steel is in the casing, not the caps. I still wouldn't put them on my steer axle though... Gary | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.177.167)
Rating: N/A |
Isn't it illegal to run recaps on the steer axle or is that only on vehicles in commercial use? We never ran them on the front 30 years ago, so I never would, even if it was legal. If a cap throws a tread, it will still cause a whole bunch of damage if it wants to, steels or not. If you miss the cap leaving the bus, then it's not long after that the casing wears through........ Kaboom!!!! A tire blowing on the back of a trailer or semi may cause some damage to a mudguard, but enclosed under the body of a bus, not good. My black tank is going right in front of the rear tires and will have a heavy steel protector just in case. Peter. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.222)
Rating: N/A |
Now you are talking reality. Bull haulers (light weight livestock hauling trailers to the non trucker type) also often avoid them, the hundreds of dollars saved sometimes does not pay for the damage to the light skins they have. It is still a tradeoff lottery style, ALL tires can fail, in my estimation, the integrity of the Bandag is BETTER than the original tread! Do a test. Every time you see a road alligator, stop, photograph it, and accumulate a file. I did, I NEVER found a Bandag, always "virgin" casing that failed, usually a Michelin (Darned frenchmen, who said they knew how to build a tire anyway, someone said they are going to paint them all yellow for identification and association) Too often I think, the "You get What You Pay For" motto overcomes common sense. The real danger I think, is in getting casings that are too old, and most of your bus service in years is already "used up" with a 4 or 5 year old casing. Bandag will not retread an old or damaged casing, only one that has proven it is good for the long haul, and it takes no real sense to look at the age of the casing you are buying. No, I am not a salesman or paid by Bandag. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.7.58)
Rating: N/A |
"My black tank is going right in front of the rear tires and will have a heavy steel protector just in case." Me too, and I'm not running any caps. Gary | ||
| R Johnstone (Chilebrew) (67.202.13.117)
Rating: N/A |
ALL tires are "caps." Watch a tire being made. The tread is laid on the carcass, the whole unit is cooked in the mold. Bandag process is identical: tread laid on carcass; put in mold. Possible that the "re-cap" better than the original; possible worse. All depends on care used in the build, materials used. At present, tire building is quite labor-intensive. Pirelli (if I remember corectly) is working on an automated line; results not yet up to snuff. | ||
| Frank Allen (152.163.252.163) Rating: N/A |
I see recaps or what is left of them all over the road everytime i get on it from the trucks , i cant understand why anybody would spent so much on a coach and then put recaps on it, too much of a chance for me. , also i did not know micelins were french, if this is the case i will never buy another one, Frank Allen 4106 | ||
| John Rigby (24.174.239.244)
Rating: N/A |
Toyo and Bridgestone, expensive ,but they are both Japan made and they contain a lot more actual rubber than the other manufacures. Last longer and ride better. John | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.177.167)
Rating: N/A |
Michelins were about the only tire supplied on older RVs with the 8R-19.5 wheel/tire combo. Recognisable by the skinny tread width. I found that the Goodyear G159 was a much wider tire in the same size and handled and rode much better. As stated before, the quality of the recapping job is what makes the product, but at least with a new Brand name tire you may have some recourse for damage if it fails within the warranty period. Does Bandag offer any warranty? If any of you remember the first Honda mopeds and small motorcycles that first came out, the tires literally fell apart, so much for Japanese rubber, until they bought Dunlop and used their formula to improve Japanese tires. Now they make good comparitive products with any other country apart from France....... LOL. I hated Michelins, their sidewalls do not survive the dry heat of the desert, the ones on my Apollo had 1/4" splits around the middle of the sidewall. I had trouble with some of their lines when in England too. However, their Michelin X tires which were used on the little French cars would stick to the road no matter what the conditions were like. Rain, snow or whatever, they did perform well back then. I don't feel recaps are not reliable, the 4 11R-22.5 on the back of my Fruitliner are a good example. The two on one side are perfect but the other pair, one is splitting across the tread where the join is and therefore about to strip itself, whilst the other one is not only doing the same, but the tread width is 1" narrower. Same carcass, same recap brand, go figure. Did they put a bigger carcass in a smaller mould machine by mistake? I put 12R-22.5 Yokohamas on my MC-8 and it rode beautifully, just make sure you use the correct rating tire or the ride quality can suffer. Peter. | ||
| R Johnstone (Chilebrew) (67.203.199.210)
Rating: N/A |
Frank: Most of what you see on the road are TREADS. I doubt if you could tell whether they are original or re-caps even if you stopped to examine each one. Michelins are made in the USA. (and in Canada, and in Brasil, and in Spain, and in Ireland, etc., etc., etc.) Toyotas are made in the USA. Hondas are made in the USA. Nissans are made in the USA. Dodges are made in Mexico. Fords are made in Canada. Etc., etc., etc. Do you use Shell fuel? That's Dutch. Madbrit: I had same experience with 19.5s. Lastly, found Bridgestones even better than the Goodyears. I've run 100mph across the AZ desert the last couple of years on Pilots. Terrible tread wear, but boy, do they stick! If you're going to run hard, you have to pay for a speed-rated tire. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.193)
Rating: N/A |
MOST of the time you can tell, especially if you are familiar with the Bandag Tread pattern, you can at least tell it is not one of theirs. Next time you are by a truck stop, take a look at some of em. Bandags also have their name printed on the tread, unlike most others. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.193)
Rating: N/A |
Facts to Ponder: January 1988: With Bandag's CEO Martin Carver at the wheel of the Bandag Bandit, a new world land speed record was set in his class, on Bandag Retreads at Bonneville Salt Flats; 150.918 miles per hour. Yeah, I would never put one of them stinkin things on a bus, why at speeds above that they just fall apart. Suppose he could not afford Michelins? | ||
| Johnny (67.241.166.251) Rating: N/A |
"Isn't it illegal to run recaps on the steer axle or is that only on vehicles in commercial use?" Illegal on any kind of bus. I run 4 235/85R16E's capped by Hi-Tec Retreading (Goodyear Wrangler AT casings, Dunlop Radial Rover tread) on my F-350, & have no problems with ~15K. They balanced nicely & are wearing evenly. My friend runs 4 33x12.50R16.5 Hi-Tec mud-tread caps on his Chevy K-20--on his second set with no complaints. I trust Bandag & Hi-Tec--AND NO OTHERS--completely. | ||
| Johnny (67.241.166.251) Rating: N/A |
"I see recaps or what is left of them all over the road everytime i get on it from the trucks" I tow for a living, & every time I see a blown cap on the road, I stop & drag it away if I safely can. Easily 95% I see are first-run tires. I'd say that 98% of Bandags that fail are underinflated, overloaded, REALLY old, or possibly all three. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.193)
Rating: N/A |
Bet some of you did not realize this either: Retreads are not only cost effective, but they are also dependable, reliable and safe. Retreads are used by truckers with scheduled delivery times, small package delivery companies with guaranteed delivery times, on commercial and military jets and by most school bus operators. Good Grief! Your kids and grandkids are actually going to school in a bus, with retreads on it? That last aircraft you rode in was running recaps (at a faster speed than your bus too), and military jets, well, the military was never know for their smarts I hear. | ||
| Johnny (67.241.166.251) Rating: N/A |
(Yes, I know I'm starting to postwhore here--sorry) For 8R19.5's, we have a bus at work (front-engine Freightliner chassis, Champion body, 19K GVWR) with this oddball size--one rear is a no-name oddball called a "Doublecoin", which was a we-need-this-yesterday replacement for a tire destroyed on a curb. The other five are Coopers, & are a very good product--OK ride (no better or worse than the G159's they replaced), good grip in the rain (all are a highway-rib design), very quiet, & wearing evenly. They're holding up to Boston's horrid "pavement" very well. For speed-rated tires, my wife is extremely happy with the 17" Sumitomo's on her Grand National. | ||
| Derek Pollard (207.194.162.26)
Rating: N/A |
Hi! I need 4 new tires on my drive axle of my MCI8. It now has 318-80-22.5's. I find 12-22.5's are almost the same dimension and less, but not that much less weight capacity. They in a premium tire are about $100. cheaper. We use the bus for lots of weekend trips, but no major runs. Sure would appreciate some input. I read my BNO emails every day, and really learn a lot from them. Derek | ||
| jmaxwell (66.81.208.209) Rating: N/A |
Double Coine is not a no name and is rapidly moving from the oddball class also. An import from CHINA! (Don't know how Harbor Freight missed cornering that market). Becoming very popular with West Coast truckers due to price. $125-150 less than popular brands of the same size and rating. Seem to get good reviews for short and medium hall; haven't heard anything about running them long haul. | ||
| Phil (24.195.240.45) Rating: N/A |
The 19.5 Michlins have gotten a bad reputation from tne motorhomes. Whether it is deserved is still a question. In most cases they are overloaded. My old Southwind diesel had them and the empty weight of the unit was within 1000 pounds of the total weight rating of the tires. If you put full fuel and a couple of people you were over gross. If you consider the axle loading was likely not ideal, at least some of the tires were very overloaded when the motorhome was loaded for travel by the typical operator who never weighed the unit. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.208)
Rating: N/A |
Hello all. A few years ago, the US Government funded a proper research study on those blown tires that are seen at the side of the road, often called "alligators". Through the Transportation Safety Board folks, I think. I cannot find the link, but the long and the short of this proper piece of university research, scientists and all was: The alligators are there due to underinflation. They are not recaps, remanufactured, or whatever. No manufacturer or remanufacturer was over represented. They are blown because they were running underinflated. The carcass displays certain characteristics if run underinflated and then blows. Same as doing any other forensic work, the evidence clearly points to the cause. So, how often do you check your tires for inflation pressure? Remember, the research indicated that by far the number one reason for alligators was underinflation, so the number one danger any of us are in either personally or to our wallets is tire pressure. If you want to be safe, check your tire pressures, not your brand or manufacturing technique. And for that you use a proper air gauge to be sure, AND a tire billie to save time in between, if you are not tone deaf. Have you ever found a tire running 15 pounds down with your tire billie? Have you ever whacked a real flat inner dual? You'd better be sure you can tell both of the above, because both will lead to blow out on a hot day. Does your tire billie have enough weight to do any good? I catch newbies at work all the time who kick tires. Take 'em to the take-off pile and have 'em kick a bunch of flats. They learn soon enough that the difference between flat and inflated isn't as big as they thought, never mind 15 pounds down. be safe and know for sure what you're doing! Any decent fleet or tire shop will let you have a whack at their old mounted tires so you can educate yourself. Or, let some air out of your own and feel the difference, or decide to use a tire gauge. Tires are pretty important. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.79)
Rating: N/A |
Sure can't argue with that! The only thing I could think of to add, is temperatures. During a trip at rest or fuel stops, as soon as I stop, I put my hand on each tire and each wheel bearing area. You can spot approaching trouble very easy, and there is NO WAY an underinflated tire is going to run cooler! I have not done a scientific test, but you can sure "feel" a low tire easily enough. | ||
| Johnny (65.224.20.253) Rating: N/A |
Buswarrior--By kicking, I can spot a blown tire every time, & can tell if a tire is low if it's down more than 15-20psi. But I do use a gauge at least every second day. | ||
| Donald L Schwanke (205.187.92.250)
Rating: N/A |
But it is hard as heck to kick the inside dual of most buses, isn't it? (which as we all know, is the ONLY one that ever gives trouble anyway) | ||
| JimNH (172.210.193.44) Rating: N/A |
The inner tire is the most likely to have problems because of a lack of cooling air over it. Busses are different than trucks in that truck's are open to the air. Brings us back to Don's talk about underinflation and heat. Jim | ||
| Dave Wheat (24.197.182.248)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Gents. Buswarrior is correct according to www.retread.org. Alligators are caused by underinflation which causes tread separation and also overloading. Mismatched tire sizes can be a cause too. It's not the retreads, it's improper tire inflation. Check your tire inflation and you should have few problems. Dave | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
I suggest you all go to NAPA or other automotive store and purchase a digital, laser guided, temperature guage. About $100, I believe. It works great, easy to use, and after a few uses you can get a very good idea of what each tire is doing. I Check at rest areas a couple of times a day as soon as I stop. Tires on the sunny side of the bus usually run a few degrees hotter than those on the shady side. Also great for checking radiator overheating problems. Richard | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.2) Rating: N/A |
The only bus at work I can't easily kick the inner dual on is a 1996 E-350 with a Metrotrans body on it, which hangs rather low (enough so that it doesn't need mud flaps). The others, especially the El Dorados & the high-riding Blue Bird, have enough room even for my size 12 boot. I actually have more trouble getting to the inner duals on the wheel-lift wreckers. having said that, I do use a gauge at least once per day. | ||
| DonTX/KS (63.157.180.69)
Rating: N/A |
Everybody with a bus ought to have one of them fancy guages like Richard is talking about. And Johnny, just try kicking the inner dual on a GMC 4905, unless you are some sort of contortionist. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Many posts ago, "Johnny" said (regarding recaps): "Illegal on any kind of bus." I'm assuming, which may be a bad idea, that you intend this to mean "even ones that have been converted to (private, non-commercial) motor homes." So I would like to know, Johnny, exactly what law spells this out? My "bus" is registered here in CA as a "Housecar," and I've looked through the entire CVC and I can't find anyplace where housecars are prohibited from using DOT-approved recaps on any wheel. Not saying I would do so (I wouldn't), but if you are going to make such forceful, unambiguous statements, I'd like to know your source. -Sean | ||
| DonTX/KS (67.210.119.102)
Rating: N/A |
Johnny must have have mis spoken. One of Bandag's biggest customers is school buses, I think if you re read the post, he was saying "illegal on the STEER axle of any bus".. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Yes, I saw that. I repeat: what law governs this for motorhomes? The question is really rhetorical. I believe Johhny is just plain wrong -- here in CA, no law prohibits retreads on motor home steer axles, even if they started life as buses. A "bus" is very specifically defined in CA law, and once one has re-titled their "bus" to a motorhome, it's no longer a bus -- it's a motorhome. If that were not the case, then one would neet a Class B CDL, valid medical certificate, and an air brake endorsement to even drive it around the block. | ||
| DonTX/KS (67.210.125.192)
Rating: N/A |
OK, I can agree with you there, I see your point. | ||
| Johnny (67.241.166.194) Rating: N/A |
"I'd like to know your source." The CDL study book, verified by a big-rig inspector--caps on the steer axle of any bus are illegal. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Johhny, I agree, if by "bus" you mean "commercial vehicle carrying, or designed to carry, passengers." If your "bus" has been converted to a motorhome, it's not a "bus," a CDL is not required, and the law your inspector is talking about does not apply. Here in CA, a "housecar" is not a "bus" and vice-versa, those definitions are mutually exclusive in the vehicle code. Doesn't matter what the chassis looks like, or what it was in a former life. If it's now a "housecar", you can put any legal tire on the steers. -Sean | ||
| Stan (24.67.45.35) Rating: N/A |
Sean I wouldn't want to argue your case before a judge. I am afraid he would use the old 'if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck'. This is similar to the discussion on going over weigh scales. Even though a truck is tagged as a private RV puller it still must comply with axle weight limits. If an enforcement officer thinks you are overweight he can send you to the nearest scale to weigh and if he thinks your vehicle is a bus with recaps on the steering axle, he will give you the opportunity to convince the judge that it isn't. Personally, I would not use recaps on any axle on a motorhome because tread wear is not a factor in cost. You will always replace the tires for age rather than wear. The number of years of use before the tire was capped just reduces the number of years that you can use it. When the tire is out of date, it is also not re-cappable so no casing credit when you replace it. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.184)
Rating: N/A |
You have a dual comment there Stan. lst Point: You can go all the way back to the beginning, when the Feds said NOBODY but the firm with original certification authority can recertify or change the original configuration of a motor vehicle. From the law up on high, you cannot for instance put smaller springs, axle, or tires on a truck or bus, and then claim a lesser (or greater) GVWR. This ruling was made when hundreds of trucks with a GVWR of over 26,001 lbs were stuck in the hands of the truck rental companies, only people with a CDL could rent them! They requested authority to make the changes back to a smaller GVWR by simply changing the springs in some cases. The feds denied them that ability. Carried to the extremes, you cannot make a Peterbuilt into a car by just re registering it as a car. You can surely register it easily as a car in many states, but it still quacks and is still a duck and is still a Peterbuilt. Probably if a court were to decide, all our buses are still buses, regardless what we or some states call them or how we use them. Second point: An important part of the decision for converted bus tires as regards to retreads is, as you pointed out, the age of the carcass! Since lst run tires become avilable for recaping at about the one year of age mark, then you have essentially 6 years of life left in that recap, for lets say $100 if you are claiming a 7 year rubber carcass livespan. For lets say $300 you get a new tire, good for 7 years. Cost wise, that could be a benefit by running retreads. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
"cannot make a Peterbuilt into a car by just re registering it as a car. " You can't even make a Peterbuilt into a coach if was originally made that way. On another list, A guy wrote in that he had a Peterbuilt Motorhome (I've seen these on I-5, just TOOO COOOL). While traveling, he was pulled over for passing the scales. After explaining that it was a coach and was never a commercial rig, he was still cited for passing the scales, driving without a CDL, and numerous other infractions. If you've ever seen one of these, you know what I'm talking about, they're serious High-Dollar units. Because the chassis was built as a long-haul truck, the citing officer read the letter of the law that said something along the lines of "Built for commercial use...". I'm sorry my facts are somewhat vague, and I don't know the conclusion, but the last I heard he had a court appearance. I wish I knew how it turned out....(Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...) Gary | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.150) Rating: N/A |
Waaaaaaaaaaait a minute...I've seen & heard in many different places (including from highway patrol officers) that ANY RV, whether based on a cutaway van, Spartan pusher, or a 20-ton Prevost, requires a CDL IF AND ONLY IF it is being driven as part of a job. The only exception is towing double and, in some places, air brakes. He should end up set for life (with another shiny new Pete & several million in the bank) after his lawyer finishes with that department. | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.216.65)
Rating: N/A |
There's something about needing a CDL if the vehicle is being used in connection with a business too, but I can't remember if that was only if towing a trailer as well. That would affect those people who tour the swapmeets selling their wares. Peter. | ||
| Stan (24.67.45.35) Rating: N/A |
Don: I agree with you that many tires get their first cap in the first year. How many tire dealers will let you go through their warehouse looking for a matched set of one year old tires? This is different than a trucker getting his own tires capped. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.77)
Rating: N/A |
That is why I said it is an important part of the decision process Stan. Some do, some don't. I used to have my OWN tires recapped, I knew their history of not having been run underinflated, knew the age etc. You think I would let a tire a year old go to the pile when I knew its history? My point was that most ARE older, and then using the same math, it becomes a silly idea to run the retreads. | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.59.159)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, I have to disgree with your statement: "You can't even make a Peterbuilt into a coach if was originally made that way." I think there is more to that story about the truck conversion. My Frieghtliner was a short wheelbase semi and is now registered as a long wheelbase box truck. When I take it into re-register it after the conversion is done, it will be a motorhome and my registration will state that and no Cop or other inspector can argue with what the AZMVD has it recorded as. The local scales told me to make sure that the DOT numbers are removed and not to put anything similar there to make it "look like a truck". Apparently some people do this and it makes the cops mad as it wastes their time. They specifically told me NOT to stop at any scales. With no DOT numbers and windows in the side, it is pretty obvious it is not a truck anymore. In AZ we do not have to place a "Private - Not for Hire" sign on the front corner, however the guy in the scales advised me to put one on as other States require this. Perhaps this was the problem with this Peterbuilt guy and he gave the Officer a bunch of lip when he got pulled. Another thing is that some of these truck conversion registrations have been abused by truckers registering the semi as a motorhome and then pulling a commercial load. Now, in AZ, any truck conversion which has a 5th wheel to pull a race car trailer for example, or has an opening rear shutter or doors, to carry a car or ATV, etc. is still subject to Heavy Use Tax like any commercial vehicle, because it can carry a commercial load. Peter. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.17)
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We are talking Kingsley Coach, see them at www.kingsleycoach.com for a thrill. You are embarking into a grey area Peter, and you will meet some interesting people with badges on that have some unique ideas that differ from yours. Be sure to carry every arguement you have along with you for ready viewing. When I was a truck cop, I would often stop a class 8 (semi) truck registered as a pickup (12m tags)! The reason was simple enough, a pickup registration cost about $50, the Class 8 about $2000 (and the guy figured he might run for a few years before being caught). Your reasoning would have made me let the guy go, because "it was registered in AZ that way" I did not accept that, the Judges did not accept that, and so far as I know, nobody every got away with that. The point is, most states will "register" a vehicle whatever way you want to, that don't make it legal. At the current time in KS, the VIN is the secret ingredient. I recently bought a 1996 Eldorado bus. It had been manufactured as a bus, titled and registered as a 96 Eldorado by an authorized manufacturer. When KS made a VIN check to title it, they simply changed it to a 1995 Ford Econoline (over my loud and violent objections). Last time I questioned Kingsley on their drivers license requirements, they sidestepped like a politition. At that time they could NOT sell an RV, they only sold old Class 8 trucks with large sleepers. I have a friend with a rig similar to what you are making, I get to be jail house lawyer for him quite often since he travels a lot. So far I have always won, but like I said, you WILL get to meet some interesting opinionated people with badges on. Don't get me wrong, I just love the idea of Class 8 truck conversions to RV's, it is just a grey area. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
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Peter-- "I think there is more to that story about the truck conversion." And I wish I knew what it was. I must apologise for not having the "Rest of the story", but the enforcement official was reading the "Letter of the law" and was reading "Any Vehicle Designed for Commerical Use". Pererbuilts are designed for commercial use. This did not happen in the guy's home state. Damn, I wish I could remember all the particulars, like which state it was... Don-- Spot on, it was a Kingsley, at least I remember that much. Gary | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.59.159)
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I don't see any difference whether it is a bus conversion or a truck conversion. Both were originally manufactured as a commercial vehicle which needed a CDL to drive it. If it is appearance that defines whether you can be pulled over, then I have seen a bunch of bus conversions with all the original windows, just covered over inside, if at all. Also, I have seen many truck conversions with RV windows and graffics that are obviously not a truck. So by this example, all bus conversions are wide open to this Cop's mentality in every State, since nearly all of them were once a commercial bus. Since all States have reciprocal agreements, I fail to see why this Cop pulled over Mr Peterbilt, other than he was doing something like speeding and then gave the Officer a ration of crap. That is often when the "extra" tickets flow, knowing full well that the driver probably won't come back to defend, just pay the fine from afar. I know of many truck conversion operators that pull their race cars and not one has had a problem like this. That is why I think it was an isolated incident. Don, your pick-up example is not quite the same thing, that is obviously wrong and ticketable. This is what I refered to earlier with Az wanting Heavy Use Tax on conversions that are still able to hook a semi-trailer or have a load carrying area on board. Peter. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.3)
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You are quite correct Peter. Without trying to express my opinion one way or the other, remember, the problem is mostly that the CDL was mandated strictly at the Federal level, the states all fought it, added and subtracted, and therefore there is no reciprocal agreement between states to ignore or change a federal law, and that is where the problem comes in. I used the registration example only to illustrate to you that anything one state does for registration is not necessarily OK in another. Even then, there are those cops that have to be initiated as what to ignore. We had lots of grey areas that we simply left alone. In my time as a road cop, we were given the instructions to "never stop a bus". The reason I believe was that if the bus was not legal, we were required to make him legal before he could proceed. A hundred watermelons or a few sides of beef along side the road is one thing, a dozen overweight people hitchhiking to the nexty town was quite another! | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.212.235)
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""but the enforcement official was reading the "Letter of the law" and was reading "Any Vehicle Designed for Commerical Use"" When one converts a vehicle into a mobile recreational living quarters, one has redesigned it. It is no longer designed to be a bus, truck, highway tractor, it is now designed to be a mobile recreational living quarters, housecar, motorhome, RV, or whatever. Design is in the moment, not what it started out as. None of these nuisance charges will stand up in court. However, be sure that you are compliant with any of those laws that are not specific to commercial vehicles. They may be only weight based and don't mention purpose. Here in Ontario, the guy with the converted highway tractor and personal race car trailer will need annual safety stickers on both units, due to weight only, not purpose and Transportation of Dangerous Goods (HazMat) certification and a shipping document for the drum of race fuel. All depends how the legislation in your jurisdiction is worded folks. Sometimes we're in the clear, sometimes we're captured. Best to have some idea at least of how home works! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
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"None of these nuisance charges will stand up in court." Absolutely right. but he still: A) Got Stopped B) Got Cited C) Had a court appearance in a state that he had no intention of spending more than the time it took to drive through. Gary (Damn I really wish I knew how it turned out now...) | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
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Gary - Hmmmm. . . wonder if he got a sharp "liar-for-hire" to ram thru a change of venue to his home state and home county courthouse if the ossifer would show up for trial. . . I'd like to know the results, too! Anybody got a link to the original story/posting/whatever regarding this? (Gary - you're the one who first mentioned it, hint, hint.) RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
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(Gary - you're the one who first mentioned it, hint, hint.) Yes I'm sorry, I can't even remember what List I read it from....Damn...damn...damn...... | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.174)
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In the USA Buswarrior, the issue is IF one has the authority to redesign a previously certified motor vehicle. The government has granted specific authority to companies to manufacture a vehicle to specific standards. No authority exists for us to redesign one or change those standards. The individual states have dealt with the obvious fact that they DO get remade, in differing ways, and thereby making this an issue of discussion. | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.166) Rating: N/A |
"And I wish I knew what it was. I must apologise for not having the "Rest of the story", but the enforcement official was reading the "Letter of the law" and was reading "Any Vehicle Designed for Commerical Use". Pererbuilts are designed for commercial use." Following that logic, a Ford Econoline DRW cutaway is clearly designed for commercial use (heck, I drive them for a living). However, it's also probably the most popular motorhome chassis. A Blue Bird school bus shell is clearly designed for commercial use. However, BB will sell you a factory-new one set up as a motorhome (Wanderlodge), based on the same vehicle. Man, this is confusing. Fortuneately, it really doesn't affect me--I have a CDL with passenger endorsements. | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.207.181)
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No matter what the vehicle was when first manufacturered, it is how it is presented for registration when you own it. Hence the need for inspections prior to registration including a VIN number check. If one can convince a MVD official to register a semi-truck as a pick-up, then that is the fault of the MVD and in court, the MVD official will be reprimanded and the owner fined. There has to be responsibility here and it is that of the owner to ask for registration correctly. When inspected and if the vehicle complies to the specification, then and only then can the use/application,whatever, be changed. If now, said vehicle conforms to the spec of a motorhome and cannot carry a commercial load. It is a motorhome no matter what it was before. This is a free Country and I have the right to modify my truck into a motorhome if I want to, the law says I can. No Cop's superior would ever consider taking another State and its MVD to Court, because that is what would they would be doing. I am not worried, I have researched this and know I will be legal. There will always be the Cop who wants to be a butthead and write one a frivalous ticket, but a letter to his Superior should lay the matter to rest. If not you take the summons to you local MVD and let them deal with it. I will, however, carry all the AZ Statutes appertaining to the vehicle, just as I did with the bus. Peter. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.80)
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"I am not worried, I have researched this and know I will be legal." I have heard that several times before, always from the back seat of a police vehicle while I am driving it to the pokey. I am glad you feel comfortable with your personal opinions and at ease about it all. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
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"A Blue Bird school bus shell is clearly designed for commercial use. However, BB will sell you a factory-new one set up as a motorhome (Wanderlodge), based on the same vehicle." Um...no: http://www.bottieri.com/wanderlodge.htm Definitely not based on a school bus. Gary | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.207.181)
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Don/KS, You know what, from previous topics and discussions, I thought you were on the same side of the World as me, but after that last set of comments, you are so far out there you ain't worth talking to. You are so misinformed and full of BS trying to impress people as an ex-Cop or whatever you did. You must have been the a**hole that wrote Mr Peterbilt all those tickets and the type that gives the regular Cop a bad name. Your scare tactic phrase like: "I have heard that several times before, always from the back seat of a police vehicle while I am driving it to the pokey." and your condescending: "I am glad you feel comfortable with your personal opinions and at ease about it all." as Shania Twain sung.... Don't impressa me much. Peter. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.80)
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Now come on Peter, be nice. I did not call you names or demean you or your profession. You even have a right to hate cops if you like. I was merely sharing my life experiences to point out that the statements you made as opinion, can be challenged by others, and obviously were not backed up with references. (and I DID hear that phrase before) Sorry you took offense at my statements. | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.207.181)
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I did not demean your profession and obviously you were not the same Cop otherwise you would have said so. I generally don't hate Cops, only those who abuse their power. I am afraid I did take offense at the way you made you life experiences known. Anyway, I never hold grudges for long (about as long as it takes for me to hit "send") and as far as I am concerned the matter is forgotten. Have a fun weekend. Peter. | ||
| Ole Bubba (166.102.69.24) Rating: N/A |
So Peter & Don......since you two have had time to hash out everything, what did you two decide about the the question Richard first ask about? Let me jog your memory......tires! Ole Bubba | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.80)
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That I am going to do (I hear South Padre Island calling me now), just as soon as I figure out how this little question on a set of tires by Richard got all the way to here. Wow. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
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Question was 16 ply dunlops or 14 ply Kelly. I think that question was answered in the first few replies. We have also learned that: 1) Michelins are French 2) you can put Bandags on the drive axles 3) Bandags are recaps 4) Recaps wreck busses when they shed caps 5) Tire in #4 was not really a recap because it had steel in it 6) You shouldn't put caps on your steers, It may or may not be legal, but people will think you're a loser if you do. 7) All tires are caps 8) Not everyone knows Michelin is french 9) Japs use more rubber 10) The cool people run Goodyear 11) Michelins are not really french but Shell is Dutch 12) Road alligators are almost never Bandags 13) Recaps are illegal on a bus 14) Recaps are a good thing 15) Harbor Freight missed the Bus/Truck tire market 16) 'gators are caused by underinflation retreads or not 17) Johnny can kick the inner dual with his size 12 boot (Has anyone seen him around area 51?) 18) Everyone should have a lazer tire gauge 19) A bus is not a bus if it's a housecar 20) A Peterbuilt is not a car. 21) Kingsley Coach can make a Peterbuilt into a coach 22) Cops ought to know this stuff 23) Barney Fife and Roscoe P Coletrain may not know about #19 24) I (Gary) started a story I can't finish 25) Some folks think Wanderlodges start out as Schoolbusses 26) Don Used to drive Po-lice cars. 27) Wanderlodges are way cool and not skoolies 28) Peter and Don were having a tiff, but are probably OK now (Who the hell is Shania Twain?) 29) Ole bubba wants us to get back on topic 30) I spent too many hours welding the frame on my BlueBird and have suffered brain damage. Gary | ||
| Bob (Bobb) (206.71.102.154)
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I need a drink after that. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.225)
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Sheeesh....the witches are still out there....and it is All Saints Day. C'mon youse guys. Lets get this board back on track. Ian may give up on all of us if this keeps up. My third ( and last ) appeal in recent weeks for civility and decorum here. Most of you are grown, if not senior citizens...and you know what they say about older folks....they return to acting like children sooner or later. Postpone it for a while in the interest of all who participate on this board...  RCB '64 Crown HWC | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.225)
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Sheeesh....the witches are still out there....and it is All Saints Day. C'mon youse guys. Lets get this board back on track. Ian may give up on all of us if this keeps up. My third ( and last ) appeal in recent weeks for civility and decorum here. Most of us are grown, if not senior citizens...and you know what they say about older folks....they return to acting like children sooner or later. Postpone it for a while in the interest of all who participate on this board... RCB '64 Crown HWC | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
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Oh gawd it's the topic police again. Gary | ||
| Bob (Bobb) (206.71.102.154)
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Having had a few inches of snow in the past couple of days, and the fact that I need to get my *new* bus to the heated shop I rented, I'm almost afraid to ask " how does a bus with no snow tires handle on icy roads?" I'm afraid Don or someone might be at the end of my driveway to give me a ticket for driving down my own 10km long road without snowtires.... like that truck cop in Montana who threatned to charge me with "fictitious display of tags", only to have the truck cop in Washington look at me in wonderment when I relayed that threat to him..... there is no commonality in bureaucracy. Just kidding Don.. your posts have been most helpful. If you know the answer, (about the ice) let me know.. I'm sure in Texas your saying " Snow? What the heck are you talking about? What is snow? What he hell is a km??" | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
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Well, I learned a lot of things, but not much about tires. LOL I am going Monday to have the 16 ply Dunlops installed. Am trying to get ready for Florida. Just noticed that my inspection sticker expired 02/03, so guess I had better get that taken care of too. Thanks everyone for the laughs, good times and information. Richard | ||
| Don KS/TX (205.187.92.176)
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Hey Bob, glad you asked that. As a guy that had lived on the ice and snow roads, I felt quite at home on ice - I thought. Anyway, I had to go from Kansas to Oregon to pick up my bus, had never driven one of them critters before, although lots of time in a Kenworth pulling a 53ft trailer. Time had slipped by, and it was into the fall. Somewhere around Wyoming, the blizzard cut loose, and I was terrified! I had a trailer behind with my car on it too. My fears were unfounded, that 27 foot wheelbase and the length made it a real pussy cat, got to drive in some serious stuff all the rest of the way to East Kansas, no problems at all. I know Greyhound used to use chains, but only for very steep hills I think. Uhh Bob, could you give me the coordinates of that driveway end, I am not as mean as Peter thinks, but I AM a little shy on my quota of tickets for the month, and that looks SOOOOO easy. | ||
| Bob (Bobb) (206.71.102.154)
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No problemo Don: Lat: 50 23 26 N Long: 120 37 00 W Elevation 1440M (4724') See you there, and bring your mittens. It's cold out. http://www.surreylake.com/weather.html | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.207.181)
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Gary, Thanks for compiling that index of this thread. See how much information one can gather when the thread wanders......... LOL. And to set the record straight, Michelins are French. I have two steers with checking marks and a recap done by Michelin on a Bridgestone casing with a wall repair and a narrower tread than the other 3 drives. Don't need no stinkin' Michelins here. Don, I love ya really, but you're still not having my Budweiser or my last Rollo.... LOL. Peter. | ||
| DonTX/KS (205.187.92.89)
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Well Bob, I just reconsidered. It is 75 here at 7:30 AM, and I remembered that I like it that way. Besides, I retired many years ago! |