| Author |
Message |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa) (171.75.99.230)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:44 am: | |
I am presently stripping a 1988 Neoplan Metroliner for a conversion. I read somewhere on one of the "boards" that the inner, sheet metal, ceiling liner on Neoplans is for structural strength. Maybe they were talking about a transit coach, I don't know since they didn't say. I was wondering if any one who knows, could elaborate on this. There are two sheet metal panels on the inside of the coach,on the ceiling, that are about 2 ft. wide, one on each side, with about a 4 ft. section in the middle that is uncovered.
The two covered sections are filled with fiberglass pillows but I would like to remove them and spray foam the ceiling. Also the sheet metal is a thermal path (heatsink) which makes heating and cooling more difficult. Since the finished conversion will be lighter than the seated coach when full, would it be necessary to keep the inner liner. A friend of mine told about a Metroliner that was rolled into a field and after uprighted showed no visible frame bending or damage, so maybe the frames are pretty healthy on the Metroliner.
Also would like to know if anyone has done a Metroliner in case I have any questions.
Thanks in advance. Ed. |
jmaxwell (66.81.57.80)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 12:35 pm: | |
Ed: I am doing a Jetliner which is built on the same structural design. The 2 panels you refer to are clearly structural. The roof is uni-body type construction (using more than just sheet metal) and the 2 outside metal panels help to hold the form of the roof and tie it to the sides. You will notice a heavy angle iron just inside the center facing edge of those panels that the panels are spot welded to on the bottom edge. It is also roll-formed and spot welded at the outside edge with the side wall transition. Not to be removed without severe consequences to structural integrity. My bus sat in 110-115 CA weather this summer while I worked on it and those particular panels never got hot or even warmer than ambient in an open bus so I see no need to increase the insulation. U have a 1 1/2" blanket there which affords u about a 7R factor and that is comparable to just about anything u are going to come up with that fits into a 1 1/2" space. Bottom line is, nobody can establish that any other insulation affords much more R factor for the given thickness of fiberglass blanket. Ask for the independant lab testing of the product that proves their claims, you will seldom find that independant testing exists! |
NEO/Russ (66.119.33.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
Ed,
I believe you were reading about the MCI's, not Neoplan. Even Eagles don't have these panels.
I'm converting an '81 Skyliner and from your description the panels sound like the ones in mine. Mine is a full frame Neoplan, in no way a unibody. For an proper engineering answer you would need a mechanical engineer to consider the modifications you are planning and the loads you expect to encounter. Unless you have a lot of money for analysis and stress testing, you will never have an accurate answer, just opinions from many people - "and we all have one".
Here is my opinion after working on this one and cutting a 48' Megaliner from KSC for parts:
In mine these panels were the upper side of storage and helped with the a.c. ducting. They are spot welded in place and made the frame stronger above the large window openings. My opinion is that that is the main function of these panels. I have cut mine out as I am going to close 90% of the windows and installing tubing and metal skin I will more than replace what these parts did. By the way, I have my coach sitting on four floor jacks and one I left a 1/8" of free space. In a year it has never settled, this is a stiff frame!
The Mega I cut up had the frame badly rusted, I cut the top floor off and it still went to the stripper behind a wrecker without sagging and twisting. The Mega buses are built to carry 106 people, that's over 25,000 movable lbs and had to encounter anything designers could envision to pass safety specs.
These aren't light duty designs like many of the popular models.
OK, next opinion.................. |
H3Jim (68.107.60.182)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 5:17 pm: | |
I have an article (on paper) that a shell review of the AN340 Metroliner. It was written by Mike Kadletz of Bus Copnversions magazine and was in the July 1999 issue. I also have several more pages of basic spec. I would be happy to fax them to you if you provide me a fax number.
jim.stewart@cox.net |
Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 2:50 am: | |
The "box beams" in the Neo roof are structural -- don't remove them.
Russ -- the Neo is definitely a type of unibody -- the spaceframe that holds the floors, skin, and roof carries all the weight (there's no "frame" per se as with, say, a skoolie). In fact, that's where the name "Neoplan" comes from. When Gotlob Auwarter "invented" the frameless bus chassis (in Europe) he decided to call it the "New Way" (= "Neo Plan").
-Sean |
NEO/Russ (66.83.53.142)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 9:19 am: | |
Sean,
Gotlob's design and the designs of the recent decades are entirely different in construction, size and weight so the founding name has nothing to do with the dynamics that the frame of an 80's or 90's bus encounters. The models I discussed are not frameless buses.
On a Skyliner, framing in the windows with tubing and welded skins greatly increases the stiffness of the entire structure. This is where most of us who make modifications, be it slide-outs, skin changes, moving doors, etc, are working without any torsional stiffness data. That is why I supported my bus on three points before cutting to visually detect any twisting. None present, however no doubt it is reduced. The window closing will restore it, albeit I will not know if it is equal or greater than designed ......... but again, how much is needed?
Also, you need to study the design of Eagle buses, same structure as late model Neoplans, without the subject inner skins and smaller diameter tubes of thinner wall. (Diameter of the elements and placement for load transfer is what provides stiffness, wall thickness resists compression and tolerates corrosion). Plus Neoplans have welded on steel skins that greatly enhance torsional rigidity. No Eagle has a frame "like a skoolie".
In the case of Ed, he has a Metroliner. His situation may be entirely different than that of a Skyliner or Megaliner, he should determine, or consult a M.E., to identify if he has a frame. I make no claim that I have looked at these or had anyone qualified study them. If he has a unibody, or partial unibody, I agree with you that he should leave the panels, just like the earlier GM's or MCI's. My post was simply to get him to recognize that there are a number of factors to consider before he makes a change of this magnitude. |
TVP (63.122.65.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
hey ...
could be .. I KNOW a flx 870/metro has a honeycomb wafer for the roof center section ... cut it out and watch the bus start to sag .... |
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