| Author | Message | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.55.169 Rating: |
I thought I would start a thread about my ongoing effort to install a NOS industrial engine in my MC-5C. I decided to do this because the 8V71N was getting old, was leaking a lot of oil and I couldn't find the leaks (I have now, so I will tell you where they were), and I found a factory rebuild industrial engine that had never been run on a farm near where I live for less than the parts cost to put new pistons and liners in my old engine. So in I dove... The industrial engine had the turbo at the back, where the air compressor mounts on a bus engine. So I knew I had to relocate the turbo, and I plan to put it on the drivers side of the engine, which means making a mount and new exhaust. Next, I had to be able to mount the accessories on the back of the new engine. The bus engine had the air compressor, the power steering pump, and the belt drive for the alternator. I had to swap over the power steering drive, which means taking the rear engine plate off. I also have to swap on the bus bell-housing so it had to come off anyway. At this point, I have taken everything off the back of the bus engine, so I have removed the accessories, the bell housing, all of the gear train except for the crank gear, which can stay on, and I have removed the rear engine plate. Now I have to put that stuff on the industrial engine after stripping it down to the same condition. The industrial engine came with a dual oil cooler designed to cool a big hydraulic pump or transmission. I took it off, took the oil cooler and filter housing off the bus engine, and I'll put them on the new engine at the appropriate time. At the front on the engine, I had to swap the thermostat housings from the industrial type to the bus type so that the bus cooling system would connect. You can't take off the left side thermostat housing without takiing the front engine plate off. I needed to also swap the front cover to the bus front cover so that the bus engine mounting cradle would fit. So I have completely stripped the front of the engine down to the block, pulling the front pulleys and water pump drive gear off the cams, taking the front engine plate off, swapped everything and put it all back together using the MCI front cover. I redid the fuel plumbing to match the bus plumbing. My next steps are to figure out a way to get the new engine off it's nice industrial shipping stand so I can work on the back of it, and figure out how to get the old engine off the engine dolly I built to pull it out of the bus, so that I can eventually put the new engine on it. I don't have a lift that can lift either engine, so I am going to work out ways to do this with jacks and rigging. Should be a barrel of laughs. BTW I am doing this all on my own, including pulling the engine out of the bus. If I can figure out how to post pictures I'll add a few. Brian | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 366 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 98.20.51.73  Rating: N/A |
Brian, Why remove the double-double oil cooler? The cooler you can keep your oil, the less load on the rest of the cooling system, and by extension, the engine. Turbo engines need lots and lots of cooling, and everything you can do to help this is good. Your double-double should look like this: http://www.powerlinecomponents.com/catalog/img/PCI/pgid/346/V71_oil_cooler_dual_double_pg1 51-154.jpg If it's a 'single' double oil cooler, it will look like this: http://www.powerlinecomponents.com/catalog/img/PCI/pgid/342/V71_oil_cooler_double_pg147-15 0.jpg The standard 8V71NA with a standard transmission will reject a lot of heat through the cooling system and the oil cooler. Add an automatic transmission, and you can go to well over a million Btu/hr. Toss in a turbo, and you have a disaster waiting to happen. Good Luck! and welcome to the board! | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 621 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193  Rating: N/A |
Hey Brian, Good to hear you are still making progress! As for lifting the motor & other heavy stuff, I made a 'A-frame gantry crane' (think BIG saw horse) for my shop. I scrounged for most of the parts & was lucky to have been given a JET 3 ton chain fall.  It will easilly pick up a 8V71 & cradle with the allison HT754 attached. I made it just over 9 feet wide so it could straddle a trailer ot pickup truck. It is just under 10' tallso I can roll it out the door. The wheels are fixed, not swivel, so I know where it is going when I push on it. I made the wheel mounts such that I can turn them if needed - so farr, I haven't needed to. Best tool I've ever made! When picking things up from overhead, they don't fall over as easily. Also easier to maintain control if the support blocking fails. As for my trolley, it just slides on the I-beam. I can easily position it where I want it & then pick up the load. I didn't have any wheels for it when I made it & now, I like the way it stays put when I'm lifting something. (Message edited by kyle4501 on February 15, 2011) | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1036 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.43.204 Rating: N/A |
Dallas those are automotive coolers Brian's industrial engine had a different type cooler the stacked type I doubt if he had a enough room to leave those | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 430 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
Brian You live close enough that if you have a truck or trailer you can borrow a crane from me. I have two of them. You need a concrete floor as you can't move the crane with the engine on it on gravel. Your other option is to get a tow truck to lift it for you. Bill | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.55.169 Rating: N/A |
Hi Dallas, Clifford is right, the oil cooler was too big to leave on. It required a remote oil filter housing that I didn't hve, and some of the plumbing was missing. I thought it best to use the standard one, and I am retaining the spicer gearbox. Bill, if I think I can use your cranes I'll get in touch. I actually think I have a plan figured out - time will tell... Brian | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 368 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 98.20.51.73 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Clifford and Brian, I had forgotten about those oil coolers. I dealt with some 6L71's at a Sugarbeet plant in western MN. Those engines had run for over 50 years 24/7 running pumps for the water recirculation system. Normal service was to take one off line, change the oil and filters and bring it back up again. The last time I did it was a major overhaul... No extra engine to install temporarily in place, and they had to run. I bought an old (really OLD), 6L71 pump setup and dropped the engine in place of the original. When rebuilding the engine we had to replace the radiator, oil cooler,(like yours), and change it to a 4 valve engine. It ran for 3 years and the company asked me to find out why it was using more fuel. After about 2 weeks of playing with it, we found that when it was under stress, it would use more fuel because of the heat issue in the oil coolers. As the engine got hotter, the engine would tighten up and create more friction. When we put a new 24 plate double double oil cooler on it, separated to it's own heat exchanger on the side of the engine box housing, we dropped the temps to 175° from an average of 195° This hasn't got much to do with your engine, but it shows how a few degrees can make a big difference! | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 431 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Brian No problem. Be careful of the weight. These things are very heavy. Don't get under the engine unless it is well supported. I hope you have the V71 service manual to put this thing back together again. Bill | ||
| JC Alacoque (Jc_alacoque)
Registered Member Username: Jc_alacoque Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.34.166.7 Rating: N/A |
Brian, I use the skidsteer for lifting heavy things like an engine or trans. Works really good. How about borrowing or renting one. Just make sure it is big enough to handle your weight. JC | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.55.169 Rating: N/A |
Kyle's note about the 3 ton chain-fall made me consider that. I can easily build a rack to hold it low enough to fit in my shop (only 8 ft ceiling in this shop) that could pick up the engine, if I put wheels on it I could use it to move my lathe and mills too. Could be a plan! I just have to find a chain hoist that strong. Brian | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.55.169 Rating: |
I said I would document where my engine was leaking oil. It's interesting that I was unable to pinpoint any of these leaks, save one, without finding them as I took the engine apart. Hindsight being what it is, I could have found several of them still in the bus if I had thought of looking there for them. I was losing or burning a combination of around 500 MPG of 40 weight, and a heck of a lot of it ended up on my towed car... First and easiest was the alternator. Two problems with it. The vent hose on top was only very lightly fastened so oil vapour was leaking around the threads. I did catch that one. The second problem with the alternator was the drain hose. It did not run downhill to the oil pan, it had a kind of loop in it. I realized after that the loop captured oil and did not allow it to drain freely, causing some small degree of oil pressure inside the alternator. At the back of the engine I found several leaks. The air compressor has about six bolts that hold it on, and the bottom three were only finger tight. It was leaking through the gasket face due to insufficient clamping force. I should have caught that. The alternator pulley drive seal was leaking, but only a bit. I suspected that, but the amount was no where near the amount I was losing so I didn't bother to change it. A big one that I looked at several times and didn't catch was the round tube seal that surrounds the blower drive between the engine plate and the blower housing. It was a new piece, only a couple of years old, with new clamps that I felt were tight. What I did not see was that it was pushed all the way onto the blower housing side, and was only barely on the engine plate side, so it was leaking badly at the bottom onto the top of the engine and running down all over the place. There is an internal stiffener that the clamp was tight against, and it wasn't actually clamping on the blower drive adaptor on the engine plate at all. I could have loosened it up and moved it a quarter inch and it would have stopped leaking. The last place that was leaking was, as always expected, the rear crank seal. The inside of the bellhousing was horrible and wet, some pooled oil. What are you going to do, ain't nothing you can do to fix that when the engine is in the bus! At the front of the engine I had a really horrible messy engine, but I really didn't feel the front crank seal was leaking, nor did I see any leaks from the front cam pulley. I found that the front engine plate gasket between the plate and the block had failed at the very bottom and was leaking oil all down the front of the oil pump cover plate. it was picked up by the front pulley and thrown around. Again, not the sort of thing you would suspect or particularly feel like taking apart on a lazy Sunday afternoon for fun... Posted for fun and education, I guess... I'll know where to look next time! Brian | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 432 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Brian Have you heard of Princess Auto on Dixie Rd in Mississauga or the one in Kitchener. They have chain hoists and any type of hydraulic hose connection you could want. princessauto.com Bill | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2030 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
a fork lift works nicely for this job; make sure it has the capacity for the lift. | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.55.169 Rating: N/A |
I think I have an account with Princess Auto, I buy so much stuff there... I'm actually going to pick up a 2 ton chain hoist there tomorrow, and I've ordered some I beam and some material for legs, so I'll make a gantry on the weekend. I have to make an engine stand that lets me drop the oil pan too. You really should put the oil pan on after the rear plate and bell housing if you want the gaskets to not leak, I think. Brian | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 185 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.214.210.156 Rating: N/A |
Brian, Is this a TA, turbo aftercooled, or plain turboed? Big difference if only turboed, much more heat. If TA there is a water cooler under the blower, water is circulated through the cooler. | ||
| Brian Evans (Bevans6)
Registered Member Username: Bevans6 Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 65.92.55.169 Rating: N/A |
It's a plain turbo, no aftercooler, no intercooler, low pressure turbo at this point. Don Fairchild is educating me on the benefits of a higher pressure turbo to shift the power band lower in the rev range. I figure I'll deal with any cooling issues after I see if I have them, not hard to add a third radiator for additional cooling. Also not hard to add an intercooler if I decide to do that. Brian | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 434 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Brian If you want an air to air cooler for the turbo I don't know if this would work. ebay.com 330455771009 |
