| Author |
Message |
Skip Berggren (64.252.236.114)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 7:49 am: | |
Have any of you that tow full size trailers ever been hasseled about the combined overall length? I would like to tow my 24' car trailer to the race tracks with my coach. Many states have a combined overall length restriction of 60'. I see a lot of coaches pulling trailers and they look very long. Is the length issue inforced around the country? |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.64)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 7:57 am: | |
I thought most states had a combined length limit of 65' (with exceptions for semi's with trailers), although I have heard of 60' in one or two. There are a couple of websites that have that information, but it is not always reliable. If you stick to the law in YOUR state you should be safe in other states. I am 65' with my bus and enclosed car trailer, which is the limit here in California. But I have seen a lot of people (esp. RV's with trailers) exceeding that length going down the freeway.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
DonTX/KS (67.27.113.108)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:13 am: | |
There are even different lengths allowed on different roads.
Here in Winter Texas country, I often see excessive length vehicles, and have never heard of anyone getting hassled about it.
As Geoff says, you got to read carefully, the length of a bus with trailer is NOT the same as an overall length applied to a Class 8 truck and trailer. |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 3:59 pm: | |
I pulled a car trailer for several years behind a 35' bus and was about 62' overall. I dutifully went into inspection stations where the sign indicated that I had to. I was waved through everyone except in Wyoming where the inspector came out to check that I was not over the yellow line at 65' and then checked my trailer hookup, signal and brake lights before waving me through. I started towing 4 wheels down when I went to a 40' bus to avoid problem. I still think a trailer is the proper way to take a car if protection of the car is a serious concern. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 6:25 pm: | |
My understanding is that 60' OAL is OK in all of North America. I'm planning on keeping my total rolling package at that or below that.
60' is the lowest common denominator, right?
Gary |
Doug Potter (Doug86newell) (63.74.232.26)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 7:00 pm: | |
I hope 65 is correct. I need to check this out. I'm in Texas if that matters. I am about to change out my 12' motorcycle trailer for a 24 footer. That puts me at 64. I also have a 20' but that is not enclosed. I like the idea of using the trailer as a secure storage for some expensive bikes. Probably wouldn't sleep much with them outside.
Doug |
Doug Potter (Doug86newell) (63.74.232.26)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 7:16 pm: | |
Just found it on Texas DOT website. Max Width 102" Max length 65'. It has 2 references to vechiles allowed up to 70' and a tractor with 2 trailers max length 61'.
Doug |
Jeff Miller (205.217.70.166)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
If your state allows 65 (some allow 70), you should be legal in all states at 65' per the reciprocal agreement. This only applies to the freeway system / ICC system. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.176.89)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 9:08 pm: | |
That's why I sold my 40ft bus and bought the 35ft Freightliner, with my Haulmark enclosed trailer (just under 30ft to center of the ball) it takes me to around the 65ft mark, not sure exactly until the receiver is built and the whole thing is hooked up together. But around 65ft is fine with me.
One of those custom truck conversion guys had a unit on his website that was 85ft with trailer. I asked him how he got away with it and he said he stopped at every State line and bought an overlength permit, sometimes he didn't bother and took a chance. What a pain in the butt to have to do that everytime. Wonder what the costs were for the permit, do you know Don?
Peter. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:01 pm: | |
So basically as We just have to be legal in the states we're registered in, due to reciprocal agreements? Isn't reciprocity applicable only to commercial rigs?
Logic Test: Since some states allow a tow vehicle to tow two trailers--why is in not legal in other states, when it is legal in the state the vehicle is registered in?
Gary |
Tom Connolly (Tomconnolly) (64.58.196.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:02 pm: | |
On several occasions I have seen triples, A 40 prevost, towing a 2 story trailer built like a wedge that carried 2 motorcycles enclosed with a 22' boat on top, towing a suburban. All painted to match and done up with fiber-optic lighting. Certainly exceeding 65 feet. How is this accomplished?
Tom C |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:18 pm: | |
By staying out of Oregon at least.
They will stop you at the State Line Inspection stations and will not allow you to proceed.
Gary |
David Anderson (168.215.176.196)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:48 pm: | |
Wow, Sounds like the Prevost guy wanted to be a train engineer instead of a bus driver. It would be worth standing on a steet corner with a box of popcorn just to watch him turn the corner.
Yikes! keep away from the curb!!! |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
Yeah, freaks me out just with commercial triples.
(Which are legal in Oregon.)
Gary |
DonTX/KS (205.187.92.205)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 11:07 pm: | |
I did not know that Jeff Miller. Is that just your opinion, or can you give us a reference? I think many may have reciprocity agreements somewhat confused in their minds.
IF that were the case, why bother with check stations at the state lines, just wave em on thru if they have a license plate on, huh? |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.176.89)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 7:18 am: | |
I thought check stations were primarily to check the weight of incoming vehicles because that is what causes most road damage and so permits can be issued or the vehicle turned around. A lot of trucks don't stop now with these "In cab" systems, so who knows what changes they have made to their load since they left the loading dock.
Also Port of Entries issue oversize permits and check incoming vehicle Vin#s, contents of loads, etc.
The max 65ft length is for vehicle and trailer combo, but not including semi trucks, they have a seperate set of rules. If you have a pick-up, 5th wheel and boat combo, you are still governed to the max load cpacity of the pick-up and the overall length for you home State.
Peter. |
DonTX/KS (205.187.92.192)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 8:24 am: | |
You pretty much enforced my point Peter. When I ran the Port of Entry on the South end of the Kansas Turnpike, we were ONLY interested in revenue, in fact it was a Department of Revenue office. Sales tax on that new piece of oil field equipment was one of the bigger goals. Fortunately for our state coffers, what was legal registration in the next state, often needed a pile of cash to make legal in our state.
The "drive thru" arrangements, usually worked for the larger companies, who have their paperwork for their trucks on file in that state, and it is a waste of time to stop them for additional revenue. In most states, the port of entry still does not issue oversize and overweight permits, in Kansas that was all done from the capitol. I can guarantee you, what length YOUR state allowed or what YOUR state wanted, meant not a flip to us, we collected or rejected off Kansas Law.
In later times, the vehicle and driver status, to include log book time has become a greater source of revenue.
Each state still has its own peculiar requirements, Colorado for instance wants to run the VIN on every truck, most do not.
The Feds HAVE helped by standardizing most of the rules on the interstate system, that was a big help to me in later years, when my Kenworth and I was on the other side of the window at ports of entry. |
DonTX/KS (205.187.92.192)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 8:51 am: | |
Here is a reference for those who are interested in the lengths of RV and trailers. Quite a bit of difference there as you can see.
http://www.wecamp2.com/size.html |
Peter E (Sdibaja) (67.115.9.227)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 9:55 am: | |
Good Link Don...
I wonder: what about all those 102" wide busses in Arizona, District of Columbia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, New Hampshire, and Oregon. I guess they never get sold or used there! |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.155.155.147)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:39 am: | |
Peter- New Hampshire recently (within the last couple of years) changed the width to 102" regardless of vehicle or use. So, come visit NH and don't worry.
Jim |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.176.89)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:49 am: | |
My neighbor has a 102" motorhome and he has never been hassled wherever he has been. Probably because there are too many other things for a Cop to be concerned about than an RV being 6" too wide.
Wasn't the 102" brought in to cover the awnings on both sides? Now what does the 102" owner do, have no awnings, bet they do....... LOL.
Peter. |
DonTX/KS (205.187.92.15)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:32 am: | |
While we are just wondering, I wonder if you had a perfectly legal 60 foot RV pulling a perfectly legal 25 foot trailer registered in Wyoming, and you pulled into Maryland which has a 55 foot overall length limit, would the arguement work that it was legal in Wyoming so is legal in MD? Would California mind? |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
Hey Don, thanks for that link. It's a keper.
so, it's as I thought, keep in 60 or less and you son't get hassled (At least not for that).
gary |
DonTX/KS (205.187.92.15)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 12:27 pm: | |
Except maybe in Maryland!. There are several of these charts around, as Geoff said, they are not the laws, they are someone's compilation at some point in time, so take them with some caution, the state usually has a web site that you can check more accurately. |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.129.106.179)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 4:57 pm: | |
Peter- You'll notice that many of the new conversions have the armless awnings mounted on the roof so they don't exceed the 102" width. Seems some states have hassled them during transport to the dealers, at which time it is a commercial vehicle, requiring compliance. Wyoming seems to come to mind as being the prime enforcer.
Jim |
Johnny (63.183.113.44)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 8:27 pm: | |
"On several occasions I have seen triples, A 40 prevost, towing a 2 story trailer built like a wedge that carried 2 motorcycles enclosed with a 22' boat on top, towing a suburban. All painted to match and done up with fiber-optic lighting. Certainly exceeding 65 feet. How is this accomplished?"
Too much time & money, not enough common sense? |
Greg Corbett (24.70.251.188)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 8:30 pm: | |
In British Columbia, Canada, combination tow vehicle & trailer is 20 Meters (65.6 ft) and max width of 2.6 Meters (8.5 ft or 102.4").
Now for non-residents, excesses may be covered by permits, overlength, bought at weigh scales.
For residents, there are other concerns such as max. length RV motor home is 12.5 Meters (41 ft max, so "45 ft conversions" are illegal to be registered here, unless little white lies are told, registering as a "bus"). The real clincher is regular car drivers licenses allow combined weight of 4,600 Kg max.(roughly 10,000 Lbs), so for BC residents, a CDL Bus is required beyond that or CDL semi licence covers everything legal to drive on the highway (BCDL class 1 or 2, 3 may work but could require some arguing).
We are not likely to see too many changes here in the near future, kind of agree with it. |
Tom Connolly (Tomconnolly) (64.58.196.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:26 pm: | |
Hi Johnny,
"Too much time & money, not enough common sense? "
I talked to the coach owners as my outdoor display was next door to their coach for 4 days at an FMCA rally a few years back. They were fortunate enough to afford big toys, their income easily exceeding $400 per hour, of course many individuals earn $400 per hour even I do that several times a month, but only a small percentage make that much money 24 hours a day or about 8,760 hours a year (do the math). Personally I have always struggled in the money department, but I do admire those that have plenty of it and the great things it allows them to do, I have yet to hear anyone that is financially successful complain about having too much! Though I have heard lots of people complain about the money other people have, especially when they don't. So far as I know money is only a problem when it is in short supply and maybe a little less common sense and more money would do us all some good, possibly it could afford us more time to spend with loved ones and less time in pursuit of the things that really don't matter in this relatively short walk on Earth!
Just my thought on the subject.
Namaste, Tom C |
Johnny (65.177.168.198)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 7:16 am: | |
Lessee: 40' coach (likely never designed to tow ANYTHING), towing a big trailer with a boat on top (an easy 6000lbs. minimum), and towing a 6500lb SUburban BEHIND THE TRAILER?! Sorry, but that guy needs a brain transplant. Common sense says that's a bad idea. |
DonTX/KS (205.187.92.41)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 9:15 am: | |
I always cringe when someone uses that "never designed to" arguement. Buses were never designed to do anything but be in commercial service hauling 50 or so people from town to town. The very base element of bus conversions is that word "Conversions".
Is that not what we are doing, converting the design critera for a different use? Maybe the guy HAD a brain transplant, got a better one, and converted his bus to accomplish what he needed done.
Sorry, just had to cut loose on that one guys. |
Johnny (65.177.177.98)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 5:54 pm: | |
A coach was designed to run down the road, with about 50 passengers & plenty of luggage. A conversion is designed to run down the road, with a bunch of interior stuff & luggage bays filled with holding tanks, A/C systems, & assorted gear. Not that big a difference.
However, there's quite a leap from a bus-RV conversion to pulling 10,000+lbs with a coach. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 6:14 pm: | |
there must be a way to handle this since Greyhound/Canada is pulling cargo trailers in revenue service.
Also there's a gazillion megadollar prevosts out there hauling trailers.
Personally, the frame issue is one of the reasons my conversion is based on a bluebird.
Gary |
doughtebonifiedbusnut (24.62.99.43)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 7:41 pm: | |
The 102 inch width was the result of carriers needing to put 8' stuff inside a box van 8' is a standard measurement. The mirrors are not measured when a truck pulls into a scale.Which leads me to the next question. A converted bus is a privetly owned vehicle why are you pulling into weigh stations in the first place? |
Johnny (65.177.177.98)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 8:22 pm: | |
"there must be a way to handle this since Greyhound/Canada is pulling cargo trailers in revenue service."
True, but I'd wager they are using specially-equipped buses.
I'd also bet they have much better brakes (ie, air) on them than a 4-down Suburban, which is BEHIND another trailer! |
DonTX/KS (205.187.92.191)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 8:32 pm: | |
But Johnny, you must admit that we CAN engineer or design changes to make that as safe and dependable as needed. Surburbans and trailers can be made to brake themselves very well. I have driven a number of trailer equipped rigs that stop better than without the trailer. That is the point I was trying to make. It is NOT an unsurmountable obstacle. Most of our conversions are "specially-equipped buses" as you call them. Agreed? |
Johnny (65.177.177.98)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 9:03 pm: | |
Equipping a bus as living quarters & equipping one to safely tow 6+ tons are entirely different things. That lunatic with the Prevost towing double should be arrested. If he had to stop quickly, that could easily be catastrophic. I hope his stupidity kills only him.
The only way that a combination vehicle (lapsing into official wording here) can brake better than the tow vehicle singly is with electric or air brakes. With surge brakes (or the systems typically used in a 4-down toad), it seems to be a physical impossibility. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 9:35 pm: | |
I think you guys are arguing (OK Debating....discussing...whatever) two different things.
Don is saying you can safely tow with a bus (I Agree)
Jhonny is saying that towing doubles with a Prevost is Lunacy (I Agree)
I just wish someone would start a thread about electric powered busses, now that would be interesting...
Gary |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.208.12)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 11:07 pm: | |
Hello all.
If you want a handy resource to refer to, it would be good to have a look at Rand McNally's Motor Carrier Road Atlas.
It's especially for the commercial folks who are trying to stay out of trouble.
The front part of the book is full of all sorts of compliance stuff, low bridges in each state, where the weigh stations are, restricted routes, telephone numbers, addresses, fuel tax rates, overweight/oversize permit sources, weather info telephone numbers, extensive mileage directory as well as the usual maps and city locator.
Great resource for busnuts too
The price on the cover is US$19.95, but I always pick up a current one at a truck stop for around $10.
Lets get a couple of things straight for the folks who are least able to fend for themselves:
1) Generally, laws apply where you are standing, not where you're from. When in Rome, you better be dressed in a toga, or have a permit from Ceasar allowing you to wear jeans.
2) It is my professional opinion that RV sources about what the "law" is are horribly vague, incomplete, or wrong. They are a BAD source of info. RV magazines, RV salespeople, RV manufacturers, well gosh, anything that has RV near it, can't be trusted to give you anything that can be trusted. Too much RV product is teetering on the brink, or over it, as far as regulations are concerned.
Never mind internet compilations. To do it right would take pages and pages of words. You have to ask what have they left out?
Go to the DOT site for the jurisdiction in question and get the straight poop.
3) When it comes to length and weight laws, most are written for "vehicles" on the road, not specifically for "commercial vehicles". If it says 60 feet, that's all of us, in that jursidiction, without conforming to a specific configuration, or getting a special permit allowing us to be over length.
When you see some giant thing going down the road, you don't know what the driver has beside him on the seat in the way of special permits allowing it to go down the road. Simply watching what's out there is an unreliable way to make your decisions.
If you are planning a long combination, one thing you can do is go see your local DOT enforcement folks at the scales, bring a bunch of coffees for the crew and ask them to tell you how they would charge you, or how you would be compliant, according to your plans. Be sure that you get a keen guy who pauses and wonders for a moment, and encourage him to get a reference book or his supervisor to give a hand. They will be a little shocked at your friendliness, but you should get some good info. Always best if there is a bunch of them, less off the cuff crap in the presence of learned collegues.
Hope this helps.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.208.12)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 11:17 pm: | |
On the Greyhound trailer front:
The trailers have air over hydraulic brakes on them.
Two gladhands on back of bus, pintle hook connection, twin axle.
A small brake chamber pushes on the hydraulic resevoir and puts on the brakes. Another small air chamber is mounted on the trailer for the pintle mechanism, usually found on the truck in a more conventional set-up.
I wasn't able to crawl under it to figure out whether there was a parking side to the system.
I haven't had a chance to get my hands on a set of schematics yet.
These buses have to run under a special permit in Ontario.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
Buswarrior: With personnel changes at the Greyhound garage in Edmonton, I no longer have any personal contact with the supervisor or foreman that I had several years ago. On looking at the brake setup on their trailers it would appear that they must have a tank on the trailer since they use two air lines like a truck. The tank air would be used for breakaway brakes and possibly for parking. They have run them for many years in Alberta and I think started with MC9 when they sold the MC8 Combos. |