| Author |
Message |
David Anderson (168.215.176.237)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
I'm planning on taking the coach skiing sometime in 2004. I'm just wondering if I should plan to dry camp at a resort area, find an RV park in town or camp in a parking lot at a motel (we are going with a group who will stay in a motel).
What are the in's and out's of going skiing in the coach? I don't mean winterization. My coach is set for cold weather, heated bays, block heater, etc. I'm more worried about driving in snow over the mountains and parking where my bus gets stuck in a snowbank.
We are considering Wolf Creek. Two years ago, we went there (not in the bus) and there were two motor homes parked at the Wolf Creek resort for 3 days. They were dry camped. I did Wolf Creek pass last summer without difficulty. Winter driving it may be much different.
We may consider Silver Creek near Granby and Fraser. Anyone take a coach out there?
These are only two places our group has talked about. Anyone have suggestions for other places in central, southwest Colorado, or New Mexico?Nothing is firm yet.
I checked the archives and very little about skiing came up. This would be a good thread for future reference.
Just would like some opinions of experience.
Thanks,
David Anderson |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.148.140.23)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 7:04 pm: | |
As a retired ski instructor, my advice is to call ahead to see if the area will allow you to drycamp in their lot. It was ok at Breckinridge, CO and Mt Cranmore, NH but absolutely not allowed in Mt Hood, Oregon or Loon Mt, NH. It will vary from area to area depending on how many rental units they have to fill. There is much more income for the area if they can rent a room. Many Eastern areas allow camping, but others do not. Winter driving is not bad, even with snow on the roads, IF YOU DRIVE ACCORDINGLY. A bus is incredibly good in the snow except when taking off from a dead stop. That is the most likely time to have problems. Also, don't lock up the brakes. If the wheels are turning, they stop very well, but if you lock 'em up, you lose all traction and control. I have driven I-70 from Grand Junction to Denver in 3" of snow with no problem. They seem to use mine tailings (1/2" sharp edged stone) to improve traction. Just don't follow too closely or it may cost you a windshield! During deep snow periods, chains may be REQUIRED, so keep that in mind. No chains, NO GO. Cops are there to make sure.
Plan ahead and you can really enjoy the winter in a bus that can withstand the cold.
Jim |
jmaxwell (66.81.214.23)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 8:52 pm: | |
I know a guy that chained up an MC5 once; left the chains laying where he took them off! I suspect u find little on the subject here because the majority of us seek a Southern route and destination when the snow falls: Even Geese know that. Just can't imagine why anyone would want to go to the snow. Skiing is something u do on water, preferably in the liquid state and 75 degrees or warmer. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 9:51 pm: | |
I sure can't agree with you Mr. Maxwell. I water-skied for thirty years, and then discovered snow at the age of mid 50's. Mostly Utah and Colorado. What a blast. Never wanted to go back to water again!
Richard |
bobm (68.35.160.19)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 9:55 pm: | |
try northern new mexico. taos, santa fe, angel fire. if you have a toad you can park in town avoid the elevation and toad to the ski areas in 30 min. can golf and ski in the same day |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 10:11 pm: | |
"Just can't imagine why anyone would want to go to the snow"
I really identify with the above statement--even though I am resuctant to say anything disparging about snow skiing, having never been any kind of skiier.
I spent my twenties "Commuting" over the Cascade mountains in Oregon. Now, In my early forties I "Commute" I5 from Mid Oregon to Mexico, the Idea of navigating 10+ tons 'o bus through the snow just makes me tired.
All I can say is Snow skiing must be a blast.
Gary |
carl mci 9 (66.144.52.101)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 8:19 am: | |
I see that there is a campground in Breckenridge that has year around motorcoach sites with full hookups. Do you need to do anything special to your coach to use these in the middle of winter when it is zero outside?
thanks carl |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.173.65.52)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 10:13 am: | |
Gary, I've been on several bussing ski trips to Utah and California, it really was a blast every time. But then, it never was my coach. One time we drove an MC-9 into a driveway and had to totally empty the coach to get it to move again, it had caught the underside of both bumpers and left the drive axle with too little traction. Then the next year at the same resort, we parked the coach up the hill to avoid doing THAT again, and while we were all unloading her, she ran out of fuel...
It was all pretty funny then, I doubt if it had been my coach that it would have been funny at all.
Brian |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.210.207)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
Hello David
Never you mind the naysayers, load it up and go skiing!
As far as this Canadian bus driver and driver trainer is concerned, if it is snowing, a bus would be my first choice of transportation for roadholding.
Any greater difficulty in stopping is far outweighed by the bus's directional stability and ability to plow on through the drifts and ruts as if they weren't there.
Yes, I'd pick it over my snow tire equipped 4X4 GMC Suburban. Almost even choice if there are all position tires on the bus. If there are good lugged tires on the bus drives, then there's absolutely no contest. Bus wins, hands down. The lugs just make it easier to get started. Once you are underway, there's not much difference until there's over two feet of snow under you, where diminishing returns kick in anyway - it won't be far before you're stuck, regardless of tire type.
As noted before, check to be sure that they will let you stay overnight in the chalet parking lot, park next to the bank, if you can, so you can ski right home, and enjoy "home cooking" and store bought liquid refreshments instead of expensive chalet fare, if you prefer. Otherwise, try all the usual tricks: ask at a local store/gas station where you are about to spend a considerable amount of money on supplies and fuel.
As for driving around in the snow, don't do anything you wouldn't do in a car and you'll be fine.
Be careful to keep it on the ashphalt or hard frozen flat ground - Always, including a breakdown. Don't roll it on its side into a snow covered ditch trying to clear half a lane.
Don't park in puddles that will turn into ice, shackling the bus tires to the ground.
Be extremely wary of anywhere that a plow has winged the side of the road, and there aren't any tire tracks yet. That wide looking driveway, street or parking lot edge may be much narrower in real life and have a ditch or depression lurking underneath.
If you're not sure how solid the ground might be, get out and check. Buses do not pull themselves out of holes. A six inch deep depression hiding under soft snow will grab a front wheel and force a call to a wrecker or risk drive line or tire damage trying to get it out. DO NOT SPIN THE TIRES! Best you can do is gently and slowly rock the bus from one side of the depression to the other, and hope it pops out. If it is getting deeper, stop, and call the wrecker. Buried to the axle costs more than giving you a tug.
Does your emergency road service cover getting stuck in the snow? Are you covered for the big wreckers that can lift your bus out of where you put it?
Be sure you know where or whether it is safe to attach a chain front and rear to your coach for cheaper tows by a good samaritan at the slope, and to be wary of wrecker crews who don't know your bus model. A snow cat has some serious pull, if you can get them to bring it out to you.
Please note: On many bus models, once stuck, the angle on the chain from any potential good hook-up will damage the bodywork somewhere else. You are more than likely going to need a wrecker that can lift you out for any towing needs you end up with.
If you get stuck, statistically you've either nosed it in, or slid sideways off the road through a combination of icy road, road camber and a brake application to turn a corner.
Go slower on the big downhills than you do in the summer. Of course, trying out your bus as a tobogan is everyone's choice...
Never mind the hotshots, if it's snowing, there is no such thing as too slow off the mountain. Let them roar past with the horns blaring. Throw on the four ways and relax, if you go too slow, you'll be alive, if you go as fast as conditions allow, you'll be alive, and if you go to fast... If you are going to screw it up, well, each of us is free to choose which end of the scale to err on.
Driver error gets a bus stuck, it doesn't get stuck by itself.
If chains are required in your neck of the woods, you will be able to get some local to you with no trouble. Be sure your vendor knows they are for a bus, your tire and rim size, with the associated wheel well space considerations, and attachment challenges. I've seen many just use individual lengths with a nut and bolt to hold each together through a hand hole in the wheel. (is this a plus to 5 hole vs 2 hole rims? oops, wrong post!)
You need chains for the drive axle. (Stop laughing, you smart guys! I saw a new guy try to chain up his tag tires. He couldn't figure out why they wouldn't fit right...)
Be sure to practice installing your chains under more pleasant conditions!
Hope this is of help!
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | |
Wow Buswarrior--that was good.
Even though you did mention "Keep it on the Asphalt", One thing I would specifically point out is we know shoulders are bad for busses, and snow hides the shoulders.
Always be aware of where the edge of the pavement is.
Gary |
Lorin David McCleary (Wacoastmci) (148.78.243.123)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 9:26 pm: | |
Hey Buswarrior,
Thanks for the great post on snowy bus driving. Was wondering...use the retarder or not on downhill side of mountain pass if road is snowy/icy? (Manual says "no" but intuition says "yes"). Buswarrior says...?
Lorin
wacoastmci |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:32 pm: | |
Buswarrier, Great post. Thanks lots. Lots of us flatlanders do not get much chance to try the bus in the snow.
Richard |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.212.189)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2003 - 11:48 pm: | |
Thanks for the clarification Gary, important detail!
Excellent question Lorin! No discourse on snow driving should be without comment on the various assistive devices for saving brake wear. I appoligize for leaving it out.
For review:
Engine brakes, exhaust brakes, hydraulic or magnetic retarders all act on the driveline a little differently, have their various strengths and weaknesses and have their camps of followers.
However, they all have the purpose to reduce brake wear, and on long downgrades, to keep brake temperatures lower while controlling a given road speed. And they do this by inducing some sort of resistance to the turning of the driveline.
For the sake of this discussion, I'll describe any slowing effect on the vehicle as a braking force, regardless of what mechanism is its source.
And therein lies the danger when driving on slippery surfaces:
The retarder/engine brake device is holding back the vehicle using the traction of only the drive wheels, or one might say that the braking force is only being applied to the drive wheels.
Now, if there is sufficient traction available for this to happen without those 4 tires sliding, you will stay in control.
If there is not, the rear of the bus will start to slide in whatever direction is downhill, partly towards the road camber, and mostly all ahead full down the road. The device will be stronger than the available traction, and the wheels will stop rotating at roadspeed.
This problem will not be easily corrected, as the driver will have to accurately identify that driveline braking force is the cause, and react by clutching in a manual or shutting off the device on an automatic.
And at the same time, the bus is picking up speed, and starting to go sideways to some degree.
And applying the brakes will continue the rear wheel slide, and more than likely induce a front wheel one too, since the brakes have probably been put on suddenly and hard, due to the naturally rising panic in the driver.
If there was that little traction, and you were travelling fast enough to slide it loose, the sliding tires will be offering little effective braking force, and recovering it will require more available traction than would have been needed to keep it under control. And as speed increases, the chances of regaining control are literally slipping by.
Moot points, if you're sliding away. A cruder person than I might suggest assuming some submissive position and wishing your posterior a fond farewell.
So, I suggest, as do the manufacturers of all of these devices, that they not be used when the road conditions might not let your drive tires grip the road sufficiently to stay turning.
Meaning snow and ice. Rain alone is rarely a problem for these devices without other driver antics added in.(worn smooth cement notwithstanding)
Using your brakes will use all of the tires and their available traction to keep you under better control.
Watch the other traffic intently. If an auto has the slightest bit of control problem, you MUST get it slowed down without loosing control NOW, before you have bigger control issues.
Do not crest a hill at speed. Depending on the conditions, best to be pretty much stopped, and be sure that you can stop all the way down.
Not to scare anyone, but to show proper respect to certain snow conditions, I have had to negotiate a snow covered 6 degree slope by stopping, let the wheels turn, apply the brakes, slide three or four feet to a stop, sometimes straight, sometimes a bit crooked and repeat, all the way down. Under those conditions can you imagine what would happen if you let it get up to 10 or 15 miles an hour?
I have also made the decision to stop at the top and wait patiently for the plow/sander. There is no shame in waiting for better road conditions.
"He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day"
I state again: There is no such thing as too slow, when coming off the mountain in the snow.
Four-ways on, relax.
We're not afraid, we are showing Old Man Winter the respect that is his due.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.215.134)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 5:26 am: | |
Also, don't forget, do not use the Cruise Control either. No automated control devices should be used in bad weather.
Peter. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 7:48 am: | |
"The retarder/engine brake device is holding back the vehicle using the traction of only the drive wheels, or one might say that the braking force is only being applied to the drive wheels.
Now, if there is sufficient traction available for this to happen without those 4 tires sliding, you will stay in control. "
Buswarrier, I would guess that once a tire starts sliding you would only have braking action on two tires instead of four, due to the action of the differential. Makes it even worse! Think I'll stay home.
Richard |
David Anderson (168.215.176.216)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 11:11 pm: | |
Thanks, guys.
This thread will be good to have in the archives.
David Anderson |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.86.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:49 pm: | |
And you thought this thread ws dead.
Check this out:
http://www.onspot.com/indhisfr.htm
Gary |
Bob Wood so cal (4.63.41.14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:00 pm: | |
those are cool! eom |
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