| Author |
Message |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:02 pm: | |
As I go through the bird, I have lots of hard air lines that are beat up, spliced or whatever. Numerous little leaks as well.
Currently the air lines are compression-ring copper lines.
Is there a more modern replacement for these? Better than just regular Nylon compression lines?
thanks for any help
Gary |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.136)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:20 am: | |
The new trucks I see nowadays all use the nylon stuff inside the frame rails, and the fiber reinforced rubber stuff, to the brake cans. I have seen, and used, a kevlar sheathed product with a teflon inner tube that worked well in areas that would see rock chip abuse, but that stuff is EXPENSIVE and uses crimp fittings.
Copper still is the best way to go, but nylon is cheaper for the OEMs, so it's nylon we get.
Brian |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 12:26 am: | |
So stick with the copper?
I can do that, spares available at any hardware store too.
Any other opinions?
Gary |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.208.142)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 9:45 am: | |
Hello Gary.
I would use the "ease of use" rule to decide what material to use where.
For me, if it is easy to do, keep the copper where you can. If it involves wrapping all around and through, use the flexible modern plastic/nylon stuff, or a piece of rubber line, or whatever. As long as it DOT airline, I have no preference.
The copper will last forever, if it is secured against rubbing. The plastic air line will last almost that long, same rule, if it is secured against rubbing.
OEM's are using it both for lower material cost as well as the great benefit of easy and careless install. You don't have to treat the plastic with near the respect when installing that you do copper. Doesn't kink as easily.
Means the workers don't have to be craftsmen, so you pay them ..... which lowers costs, blah, blah, blah, deteriorating the very soul of the two great nations that occupy the northern bits of North America.
"Oops, need more coffee" he said, with that mischievious glint in his eye.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.136)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:07 am: | |
In most circumstances the nylon air line works great if it is secured properly as buswarrior points out.
However, it will become brittle with age and extreme cold, so thats a problem... And I wouldn't try to use it anywhere close to a heat source, that means anywhere near the engine bay, including the air lines for the radiator shutters.
Here in the desert the conditions are extreme, but I have repaired plastic air lines with pin holes from road heat. Copper is not invulnerable, but as buswarrior suggests, it will, if secured properly, last forever.
Brian |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 2:05 pm: | |
OK, I'll stick with wrestling with the copper.
I was wondering if there was some new Miracle tubing that installs itself.
Gary |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.41)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 4:17 pm: | |
Seems to me that the DOT plastic airline tubing would be the way to go for any new work or serious replacement work. Lots easier to work with than copper. Just my opinion.
Scott |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.171.168.36)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 7:20 pm: | |
I replaced 150' of plastic line on my Prevost this summer. The boot around the drag ling from the steering box to the axle cracked from age and left a hole that was inviting to mice. They then got into the 2-1/2" conduit that held the airlines going from the spare tire compartment to the rear bay bulkhead. In the process of living there for an undetermined amount of time, they decided to munch on the plastic airlines. Fortunately, it was the levelling airline that they ate through first, instead of a brake line. Copper is good. Mice don't like it. But it really wasn't difficult to replace it with the flexibility and ease of installation that the plastic affords. D-Con is now standard equipment in the spare tire compartment. Got no use for those *$%^#& mice.
Jim |
Tom Connolly (Tomconnolly) (64.58.196.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:14 pm: | |
So far as I can see no one has mentioned that all the copper air lines used before the auxiliary air tank need DOT approved Bendix fittings, not the stuff from the builders supply!
Tom C |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 11:11 pm: | |
Ok, so where do I find this stuff?
Local truck supply?
The sizes are the same as copper?
Gary |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.249.143)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:32 am: | |
The copper tubing is the same Gary...
While bendix is a fine company with a great product they are not the only one making DOT fittings, Parker Aeroquip and Weatherhead are at least three others that do.
So long as you are match up the old fitting and replace with a like item, you will be fine.
USUALLY, the real automotive parts places (NOT the checker kragen pep boys autozone type)will have such fittings.
Brian |
Tom Connolly (Tomconnolly) (64.58.196.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:52 am: | |
Gary,
Most any heavy truck dealership ( http://www.macktrucks.com/ , http://www.kenworth.com/ , http://www.internationaldelivers.com/ ) has a service center, many are open all night!
Also try
http://www.truckpro.com/index.html
http://www.napaonline.com/
http://www.bendix.com/
http://hydraulics.eaton.com/weatherhead/index.html
http://www.amazonhose.com/
http://www.truckraft.com/
That should get you started, I get most everything I need from a local Industrial Hose supplier (Amazon) "Hint" ...if they don't have the fittings you need they probably sell hose to someone that does!
Brian,
I used the name Bendix as I do Bushog, as far as I am concerned all the fittings having the bendix thread, regardless of manufacturer are Bendix fittings, additionally all 3-point rotary tractor mowers are Bushog's, even John Deere makes a Bushog.
Tom C |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.18)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:14 am: | |
When you mention Bushogs and Bendix, are you meaning trade names that have become common terms like Kleenex (facial tissues) and Que Tips (cotton swabs) etc?
Scott |
Tom Connolly (Tomconnolly) (64.58.196.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 12:28 pm: | |
Correct!
Tom C |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 1:25 pm: | |
Hmm....
I never knew there was a difference between plumbing compression rings and Airbrake, but I never bought them, they were just in the parts bin in the shop.
Is there a difference in the copper lines?
I need to find a nearby supplier for the plastic lines. I think a combination of the two will be the answer.
Thanks Guys,
Gary |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 2:42 pm: | |
Gary: So called soft copper tubing comes in a variety of grades and means of shipping. For example: tubing classed as air conditioning tube is shipped from the factory with the ends of the roll sealed to ensure no contamination inside the tube. It is also available in various wall thicknesses which determine maximum pressure as well as resisitance to abrasion. A wholesale plumbing suppy should have a catalogue from a copper tube manufacturer with all the details. |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.43)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 3:48 pm: | |
On my RTS they used copper tubing for the line that ran from the firewall to the wet tank-- it was an oddball size, only available at heating and air condtioning wholesale supply outlets. The copper heater lines running to the front of the bus were also an air conditioning size. For plastic air line, Synflex is a common brand of air line sold in truck supply stores. Synflex is nice to use, but the DOT fittings can get expensive. |
mel 4104 (208.181.100.18)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
Gary, you might take a little time and go to your local heavy truck dealer and take to the shop foreman or one of the crew that has been around for a while and they will show you the way the new trucks are plumd, and what type of fittings to useplastic is easy but you must use tie downs and gromets copper being stiffer you can get away without so many tie downs. if you go to copper you will have to buy it in 50=100 ft, rolls or pay huge price differance per foot, and the fittings are the same price which ever way you go within a few cents per fitting, and yes i would lean towards the plastic as my choise mel 4104 |
oneup (68.35.160.19)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 6:34 pm: | |
i use the new fiber optic air lines. all you need is a converter to change the air to light at the compressor and then back to air at the brake cans and air bags. i use my flashlight to air up prior to starting up |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
there you go confusing matter and energy again.
Gary |
Larry Goodhew (Lgoodhew) (148.63.82.87)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 7:17 pm: | |
Aww, those fiber optic lines are so last week. I thought everyone would have switched to the new photon wormholes by now. No more having to crawl around under the bus to run lines. The signal just magically appears at the brake can! :~)
Larry Goodhew
(Finally, a thread I can contribute to!) |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.242)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:53 pm: | |
Hello all
For the uninitiated:
Regarding the heat in the newly compressed air:
You MUST run metal pipe for some distance beyond the air compressor because of the heat generated by the physics of compression. Plastic lines plumbed too close to the compressor will be harmed by the excessive heat.
Also, for those doing the big re-engineering jobs, there has to be a sufficient pipe mileage before your air dryer to allow the air to cool before entering the air dryer, or the desiccant will be compromised by the excessive heat.
That's why you see the air dryer way down the frame rail somewhere on the trucks, and popularly way up under the front of buses, just about as far from the compressor as you can get.
As for the kind of copper line, make sure it is of sufficient thickness/grade and interior diameter for this type of duty. The stuff for plumbing the humidifier out of Home Depot is not the stuff you want....
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.173.65.9)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 8:38 am: | |
Having gone to the bendix brake school two or three times over the last 20 years, I agree 100% with buswarrior, more often than not the line coming off the compressor is steel on oem trucks...Something that is tickling my brain, regarding water in the newly compressed air, seems to me bendix recomends a dip in the air line a few feet after the compressor.
I can't remember the particulars though, but it seems to me it was to allow water a place to settle out.
Brian |
NEO/Russ (66.83.53.142)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 9:00 am: | |
The '93 Freightliner I stripped to get my Series 60 had braided hose from the compressor to the wet tank. Probably about 4 ft. long. They only build the most trucks of anyone in the world, why don't they use steel? |
Tom Connolly (Tomconnolly) (64.58.196.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:09 am: | |
Most likely a Teflon lined hose with a stainless braid. A quality hose of this type is desirable!
Tom |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.86.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 7:00 pm: | |
My supply line coming from the compressor is one of the stainless braided ones.
Gary |
jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 7:23 pm: | |
tom is right.... most hose places will make a "high heat " hose from the teflon lined steel braid covered hose... and put jic or compression fittings on it... 3-4' is enough.... |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.145.6)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 8:30 pm: | |
Well, in fact, as Tom mentioned stainless steel braided teflon hose IS highly desireable, it's a step UP from steel or copper, just as stainless steel braided STAINLESS STEEL flextubing is a step up from that (not to mention fiber optics and worm holes!).
Again, the issue is what it costs the OEM. Most of the trucks in OUR fleet are Internationals, and low bid at that, hence the steel lines, obviously Freightliner is a higher end product, as are all of our coaches.
Either steel or copper are the MINIMUM in that circumstance, no one faults an upgrade, the idea is to keep someone from using plastic there. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.86.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 8:32 pm: | |
I'm a little sketchy about this particular line though--it spent some portion of it's life physically laying on the Turbo.
Gary |
Stan (24.67.45.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 9:00 pm: | |
Gary: When working on your brake system and see something that you think may be a problem, Replace it. The additional peace of mind is worth the cost. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.86.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 9:16 pm: | |
That's sorta what started this thread. I'm running across spliced lines and stuff.
gary |
Jerry (198.81.26.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 30, 2003 - 6:51 pm: | |
If copper is used Do I remember correctly making doubly sure copper and aluminum doesn't touch each other -- electrolis between the two can corrode the two in VERY short order. So not only to insulate the two passing through buldheads etc but prevent the two coming in contact with each other anywhere. |