| Author |
Message |
Jim Shepherd (Beltguy) (67.234.217.32)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:23 am: | |
With Richards terrible experience and after reading the bus fire report from Finland that was referenced in one of the threads (interesting reading), it begs the question as to where to get a good fire detection system for the engine compartment. My bus has something, but I don't trust it.
Anyone have a recommendation?
Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
'85 Eagle 10 |
TWO DOGS (66.90.210.42)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 11:34 am: | |
Dragsters have a fire bottle...so do indy cars,in the engine bay... |
Jim Shepherd (Beltguy) (67.235.113.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
I guess I was after a detection system rather than a suppression system. However, you bring up a good suggestion.
I will be going to a large race equipment show (PRI) in a couple of weeks and will keep my eyes open for an economic system. If I find anything, I will let the group know.
Before I retired, I worked with several Fuel team in Drag Racing and followed the technology a bit. As I recall, there are two types of systems on the market: Halon and “wet”. The funny car drivers had a problem with Halon, because it took away their ability to breathe. The wet system uses water and a foaming agent as I recall. Both systems are pretty costly. In drag racing the systems are triggered manually by the driver.
The wet system might not be good for a bus because of the freezing issue in the winter.
I contacted one vendor and the 5 pound Halon system runs about $340. A good site for more information is:
http://safecraft.com/
I noted on their site that they have a race trailer system that would work for us. It is a Halon system with temperature activation.
Jim Shepherd |
TWO DOGS (66.90.210.169)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:36 pm: | |
bet ol' Richard would have spent 340.00 !!!! |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:51 pm: | |
The NJ TRANSIT buses (some of them ) had a halon bottle self-contained that would trigger in high heat conditions inside the engine compartment. I don't know what the outcome of the experiment was since I left there in the middle of the test if I recall.
In past posts, there were two things I saw that I am incorporating into my coach. 1 is "port holes" to squirt a fire extinguisher in the engine compartment from a couple of different angles, and another was to have a hose from the house water tank/pump that could be used in an emergency like an engine fire. 100 gal isn't going to stop a big fire, but you could keep one from becoming a big fire. I am also putting shut-off valves in the two lines (fuel and return) from my main tank. I am also installing smoke detectors with a LOUD external alarm.
These may sound like a little bit much, but they are really inexpensive and easy to do in the construction process.
I am carrying 2 dry chem 10lb units and a CO2 unit inside with an extra 10lb Dry Chem in a compartment. I think I get my paranoia from boating, since in a boat, there aren't many places you can go to get away from a fire except overboard. That can be a problem between Bimini and Ft Lauderdale.
If there is a permanent system for an engine compartment, I certainly would have to take a look at it. DML was a huge loss, and I would prefer to avoid Richard's experience.
Doug
St Louis MC9
NJT 6442 |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
Halon works by removing all oxygen, thereby preventing combustion. It was typically used in computer rooms that could be sealed and you had to be at the door when you activated it or you would not be able to breathe.
However, Halon has been outlawed similiar to F12 freon and for the same reason, I believe.
Richard |
Jim Shepherd (Beltguy) (67.235.113.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:04 pm: | |
The sad thing is that Richard's fire would not have been handled by an engine system. However, the Finland report notes several engine compartment fires and we have all heard of many engine compartment fires including a couple caused by power steering hose failures (not noted in the Finland report).
Jim |
Jim Shepherd (Beltguy) (67.235.113.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:15 pm: | |
Sorry to keep adding messages.
Richard, I thought Halon was outlawed as well, but they still offer Halon systems for racing.
You bring up a good point on Halon. It works best in a confined area and our engine compartments are not confined - especailly if the engine is still running and the fan is pushing air. Wet systems does a good job of preventing fash back. We just need to find a way to have a freeze proof liquid.
I will talk to the vendors at the show to see of there is an option.
Jim |
BrianMCI96A3 (198.81.26.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 3:02 pm: | |
If halon is still in use and legal to be used in a conversion, seems to me it might be a good choice for a coach.
But with it's oxygen robbing properties ONLY when it is unoccupied, which for many, is most of the time.
Perhaps a halon system that is activated as part of an buglar alarm... set the alarm from an outside key pad or switch and it sets the halon system... or a seperate keyed switch near the alarm.
I wonder though how effective halon would be for a smouldering electrical fire of the type that Richard had?
I assume it would knock it down, but would it be able smother one completely?? |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
I can't remember what the deal was, but there is a reason that marine engine rooms don't use halon. Both of mine have Big Ol' CO2 bottles. I think a surveyor told me that a diesel engine can actually run on the stuff--doesn't make sense though.
Whether Halon or or CO2, it would still not kill the root cause, the electrical fire, but it would prevent the material from catching on fire.
I still think a siren or something connected to a smoke alarm would prompt the humans to take action before significant loss occurred.
Gary |
NEO/Russ (66.83.53.142)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 3:50 pm: | |
Gary,
That's correct. They stopped using Halon in diesel powered boats because the engine ran away on the fumes. Good stuff, poor application. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
That's what was in my mouldy skull, but it doesn't make sense. How can anything that puts out fires, also be a combustible.
Must be new math.
Gary |
Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.43.24)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:03 pm: | |
Hi folks,
Halon has been known to have killed a number of people who entered an extinguished fire area below decks where there was no oxygen to breathe. They would have immediately fell unconscious and died from oxygen depravation. It would have the same devastating effect if it were allowed to be used inside a bus (with sleeping passengers, say).
I like Jim Shephard's idea of a sprinkler system on the bus. Jim, it can be a pre-action dry charged system, which would prevent freezing in the lines. This type of system has been successfully used in underground parking garages in colder areas for many years. The vessel which would contain the pressurized water source on a bus could be thermostatically controlled to remain above the freezing point.
The fire service has been a strong proponent of residential fire alarm systems for a long time. Locally, a new home would only cost about $5,000. more with a sprinkler system in it. I'll bet a similar system for a bus would only cost a fraction of that.
And I'll bet you a hundred bucks that Richard's bus would have been saved with such a system.
Regards,
Ian Giffin
www.busnut.com |
David Anderson (168.215.176.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 6:47 pm: | |
Has anyone tried this stuff listed below?
It looks like it might fit an engine compartment application.
http://www.firefreeze.com/site/index.cfm |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 7:26 pm: | |
The following was copied from this site.
http://www.h3r.com/halon/
Is Halon legal?
While the production of Halon ceased on January 1, 1994 under the Clean Air Act, it is still legal to purchase and use recycled Halon and Halon fire extinguishers. In fact, the FAA requires all commercial aircraft to exclusively use halon.
Is Halon an environmental concern?
Because Halon is a CFC, the production of new Halon ceased in 1994. There is no cost effective means of safely and effectively disposing of the Halon that has already been produced, therefore recycling and reusing the existing supply intelligently and responsibly to protect lives and property is the best solution.
Richard |
Jim Shepherd (Beltguy) (67.234.197.153)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 8:04 pm: | |
David, I went to a different site and found a product also called cold fire - not sure if it is the same cold fire on the site you flagged. I went to cold fire, because I met the inventor while he was working with NHRA to test his product. He finally got it approved on their fire trucks and then into the fuel drag racing cars as an alternative to halon. I saw first hand how well the product worked.
I wrote them a note telling them about our application and asking if they had ever looked into a non-freezing solution. Have not heard back from them.
I didn't do too much looking at the site you listed as it loads very slow on dial-up. The site I went to was:
http://www.coldfiresales.com/cold_fire.htm
Jim |
Johnny (63.159.193.65)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 6:56 pm: | |
What about carbon dioxide? |
FAST FRED (63.234.23.162)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2003 - 5:39 am: | |
Both manual pull and automatic engine room CO2 instalations were std on gas boats for many decades.
Check with a local boat breaker (if your near a coast), used it would be very inexpensive.
The CO2 bottles are usually about 4 or 5 ft long , heavy , and more than just one is most common.
The good news is nothing to clean up, after the fire is out.
Compare that to dry powder where you will be replacing switches , gages and relays.
FAST FRED |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.154.176.85)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
There was an aviation design that ran tubing to the likely fire source spots and put a fitting made to fit a fire extinguisher nozzle at convenient locations. This would allow for directing CO2 or Halon to the source of a fire in a closed compartment. Might be good to direct a line from the CO2 tank to the propane compartment, the generator compartment and the Webasto/aquahot compartment as well as engine intake for emergency shut off. CO2 in large quantities is a bad idea around people in enclosed living spaces, though a small tank could save dinner in a kitchen fire. |