| Author | Message | ||
| FAST FRED (65.154.176.44) Rating: N/A |
The latest issue of Fine Home Building has an article on the dangers of glass fronted toaster ovens, As many folks are forced to attempt to cook with only a 15A supply , I have seen these in coaches. They must NOT be built in or within 6 inches of anything combustable. Now that the "safety" issue of the "Total Electric Coach" has been finally put to bed , perhaps more campers will chose the propane 4 burner range with oven & broiler, instead of dangerous gadgets. FAST FRED | ||
| Greg Roberts (Gregeagle20) (24.175.216.76)
Rating: N/A |
Fred, You make it sound as if having a total electric coach is somehow more dangerous than having a partial electric coach that also has propane appliances. Wouldn't a properly designed and built total electric coach actually have a better safety record than any coach that has propane? Do you actually have statistics to support your comments or is this just your choice? | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.45)
Rating: N/A |
Probably not, is not the Fast Fred style to use statistics. We are all still waiting for his statistics that show car dollies without brakes are illegal in most all states. I saw a coach burn in seconds from a propane fire, and open flames have been known to catch things on fire. I never seen a toaster glass destroy one yet. I did not notice any recall links to them either in his post. I also wonder just who "finally put to bed" elec in a coach? Expect more statistics for that? | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (24.207.240.13)
Rating: N/A |
I think you missed the point here. Electric and Propane as heat sources (room heat, cooking, whatever) are all safe or unsafe. Electric HOUSES are not any more safe than propane, natural gas, or heating oil systems. It is all about how you use and maintain the items used with an energy source. The toaster oven issue is an old one. Lots of HOUSE fires start there. Same with bread toasters, electric hair driers, and any other portable high-current device. Check the NFPA web site if you want stats. I don't think you will find anything meaningful on this subject. As for one safer than the other, my personal experience as a firefighter is that both will kill you when used improperly. As for a comparitive issue to contemplate - you can bet that insurance companies would "rate" propane as an additional risk in houses or motorhomes if there were any significant difference in safety (spelled money-spent-on-claims). That should be a strong indicator. Factors which enter into payment of claims by amount or frequency are part of the rating scale. BTW - I may or may not agree with FF or anyone else around here, but listening to others is a good way to pick up information and FORM YOUR OWN OPINION. My $0.02 worth Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.28)
Rating: N/A |
My points exactly Doug. Please don't take offense as a fireman, but I have seen several "fire experts" incorrectly diagnose fires. I once watched a kid set fire to a garage with a match, the "fire inspector" came in and decided an old auto antenna with a 3 foot lead hanging from the steel roof, not even plugged into things, was the culprit. "Electrical fire" he said with a know it all air as he pointed to the antenna lead. Seems like if there are wires anywhere with the insulation burned off by a propane fire, it becomes electrical. I hope modern methods allow more accurate findings that that, and I am sure there are a few dumb individuals in any profession. My opposition was to the statement that "Now that the "safety" issue of the "Total Electric Coach" has been finally put to bed - -". I don't really see it yawning or even laying down! | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
I just happen to have my Son-In-Law here with me (The Fire chief) and he leans toward an all-Electrical coach being safer, based on the number of RV-Related fires that were due to pilot-light problems, etc... This is considering that either way, you are following safe, accepted practices. A coach wired with Romex and Wire nuts, is asking to die in fiery flames, the same as LP with Flaky fittings or improper ignition sources. Gary | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230) Rating: N/A |
Hi Gary, "A coach wired with Romex and Wire nuts, is asking to die in fiery flames,..." That kind of generalized statement makes me cringe. Lets see you or your son-in-law (the fire chief) back that one up with facts or statistics. I agree with Don that if no other source can be found for a fire "electrical" seems to be the preferred whiping boy. Geezzzes, how did we get back on the topic of romex. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
"Romex and wire nuts" is my statement. Solid conductor wire and wire nuts are only acceptable in staionary applications. I didn't make that up, it's code. I no longer have access to NEMA codes, It's also in ABYC regulations. You don't use romex or wire nuts in automotive. RV's, busses are automotive. It's not my rule, but I did think it was common knowledge. It's interesting that you zeroed in on my coment about romex, and totally got my point upside-down. Our point was that electrical was, if all all else is equal, safer. Erik (The Son in law) has many years of experience in fire departments in recreational areas, most of the RV fires he's been dispatched to were LP-Gas related. Gary | ||
| DaveD (64.235.199.44)
Rating: N/A |
I would double check the applicable codes (which were developed with representation from NFPA, electrical regulators, manufacturers and other stakeholders) before stating that Romex solid wire is prohibited for ac circuits in an RV. It's been used in a lot of manufuctured RVs. Proper sized wiring, with insulation rated for the intended use, solid, secure connections and proper overcurrent protection will go a long way to reducing both the risk of electrical shock and a fire. My in-laws used to gave a travel trailer with a fuse panel. Visitors who were staying in the trailer thought they solved the problem of an electric heater blowing the 15A fuse in the trailer by replacing it with a higher rated fuse. This resulted in destuction of the outlet, the wiring to the fuse panel and the panel itself. It's a wonder the whole thing didn't go up in flames. FWIW Dave Dulmage | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Beltguy) (67.234.239.249)
Rating: N/A |
Question on wirenuts. I have a couple of locations where I have used junction boxes and stranded wire with wirenuts. Since I am still working on the electrical system, should I change the connection to crimped ends and machine screws? If it makes a difference, this is 10 gage wire for the AC units. All of the remaining wiring is stranded with crimped ends including the outlet connections. Jim Shepherd Evergreen CO '85 Eagle 10 | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60) Rating: N/A |
my holiday rambler mh has solid copper 14 w/ground for 110vac... the ground wires are crimped together.... there are only 4 duplex plugs, so each wire terminates at a plug... the only wire nuts ive found have been where the air conditioners are wired in....the 12vdc wiring is all stranded with wirenuts... some crimped trminals at the fuses.... | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (24.207.240.13)
Rating: N/A |
My copy of the National Electrical Code (I think it is the 2001 edition or thereabouts - don't have it at home) says that solid conductors are still OK in an RV from a code perspective. Words on this board from several don't like that, but RVs have had them for a lot of years. I have seen RVs, campers, trailers, whathaveyou go up in smoke for a variety of reasons, but most of them, regardless of the actual source of ignition, can be labeled as "poor maintenance of important systems", be that a wiring system (which needs maintenance in an RV in case you didn't know) or an LP system. All wiring systems, including marine systems, need to be checked thoroughly, as do LP systems and other stuff, just like the motive equipment in our coaches needs to be checked and serviced. Anything that moves is more prone to problems. This is what I am leading to when I said before that any system can be deadly. BTW - The only marine systems I am using are the 12V type. I am using armored flex with solid wire for my 120VAC stuff, stranded for my 12V stuff. At least that way is is somewhat encapsulated and will ground to a known location. Another thought - when it comes to a total electric coach, the thing I would be most worried about would be overloading the park system and suffering from low voltage in the coach. This is really dangerous as that increases the amperage draw and can cause failures in appliances and wiring systems. Something more to think about. Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Greg Roberts (Gregeagle20) (24.175.216.76)
Rating: N/A |
Pros for LPG: Energy dense, inexpensive, longer fair weather boondocking, more quiet coach in fair weather. Cons for LPG: Ignition source, less reliable appliances, explosion hazard, CO posioning hazard, DOT tunnel & ferry etc. hazard, cryogenic burn hazard Pros for total electric: Energy dense diesel fuel for genset, less of an ignition source, reliable appliances, not an explosion hazard, No risk of CO poisoning, not a cryogenic hazard, DOT has no issues with the all electric coach, no chance of cryogenic burns Cons for total electric: more noise during fair weather, shorter fair weather boondocking Depends on what is important to you really but there are more hazards available with the gas. | ||
| jmaxwell (66.81.42.139) Rating: N/A |
Gary: You and Eric had best check a few manufactured RV's and an RVIA standards book if u can lay your hands on one. You will find that most RV are wired with Romex, including most in the 500K-1M range. I have run various RV's for over 35 years, all had Romex, and none ever had a 110v wiring problem; fixtures, appliances, etc., yes, but not the wiring. I also have had propane in all of those units and the only propane problem I have ever encountered was a leaking in-line leak detector in a Holiday Rambler. Regardless of what u have, it is an absolute necessity to frequently check these things to insure their integrity and continued safe performance. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Jmaxwell, I wish you would thouroughly read a post before you decide you're going to argue with it. I see a pattern here. Erik (with a K) didn't comment about electrical methods. He has responded to numerous RV fires related to LP Gas, none with Electrical fires. Also, if you're using RVIA as a benchmark, IMO you're setting your standards pretty low. Gary | ||
| FAST FRED (63.234.23.183) Rating: N/A |
"We are all still waiting for his statistics that show car dollies without brakes are illegal in most all states" Towing FLAT,or on a dolly has weight restrictions in EVERY state, for no brakes.Canada too. The Jan issue of MOTORHOME will be on the stands in under a month , argue with them. I have always felt the acceptance of the TEC (Total Electric Coach) in coaches is from 2 factors. Many campers have NO experience , but sell the famly digs and love the concept of the "Fulltime" lifestyle. They run from PP to PP (power pole), usually squatting in a destination campsite for a full season. Transiting is only done visiting pull thru campsires and hopefully 50A 240V. Or 'Heroically" spending a "free" K mart night destroying the tiny batt set with a square wave inverter & cheapo Sears house fridge. Additionaly as the trial lawyers power increases the number of law suits increases rapidly. When a camper burns the Mfg has deep pockets so gets suied.There are many more $5.50 hr workers that can hook up electric wires than take the time to learn to install a system that needs skills & workmanship.That there are safe travel trailers or motorhomes still running propane for 40 years , is of no importance. For the serious camper (weeks of boondocking not a day or two) the huge expense and maint bill for a endless running noisemaker (or thousands of pounds of batteries)Equals non electric systems as the choice, with propane the easiest to get RV acceptable parts to build. AS always , your camper should be YOUR WAY! FAST FRED | ||
| Greg Roberts (Gregeagle20) (24.175.216.76)
Rating: N/A |
Fred, You make it seem as if you really have statistics to back up your comments. I would really like to know the source of your data so that I can weigh the facts for my own education. Can you share please? | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.26)
Rating: N/A |
I wonder if there is a list somewhere. The thought that bus conversions are all parked back in the boondocks for months at a time after climbing the rock strewn hills, navigating streams and squeezing thru the forests and meadows seems to be the dream of many. The list I want to see is of the Propane distributors with four wheel drive GPS equipped trucks that can follow your set of coordinates and make economical delivery on a weekly or more often basis to that isolated site. Most prefer a quiet efficient genset, that will outlast the bus driver by many years, and don't burn down the whole damned forest because of a branch against the fridge or water heater flames. Besides it still seems silly to me to light a fire to make something cold! | ||
| Stan (24.67.45.35) Rating: N/A |
After years of reading this argument, I solved the problem. I sold my bus (both propane and electric), bought a tent, Coleman cooler and campstove. I am now set up so that nobody on this board can tell me I'm doing it wtong. | ||
| realbusowner (68.35.160.19) Rating: N/A |
Please, give fast fred a break. He is way too busy inserting his opinion in every thread on this and other boards to be able to verify his information. He knows very well that many unsuspecting fools will believe him because its in writing. BS is cheap but professional opnions are documented. When i read this board i condider the source and those who claim to know everything about everything are usually ignored | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60) Rating: N/A |
wow....its kinda like burger king... have it your way..... i'm a power pole rv'er... fulltime... cause i dont want to rent an apartment or condo....i like the downsize of my motorhome...easy to keep...if i want a change of scenery, move to another space.... i'll probably never own another piece of property... i have my boat... a 37' chriscraft... and my bus..an '81 mci-9... and a holiday rambler motorhome....ive fulltimed for 6 yrs.... learned as i went...but each person here has different goals and motives.....mine have changed....so posters like "realbusowner" do nothing except drive people away... i suggest you apoligize or go away if you dont like this free forum....jim | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230) Rating: N/A |
Hi Don, Maybe you haven't thought of it this way, but, with the exception of hydroelectric, someone is lighting a fire to generate the power for you to cool your all electric coach and refrigerator. It may not be directly converting heat to cool but it is converting heat to cool nonetheless. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent,MN | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230) Rating: N/A |
Hi Gary, I don't know what NEMA codes or ABYC regulations are but I do know what the National Electric Code is. Please read section 551 in the NEC (deals with recreational vehicles and campgrounds). Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Greg Roberts (Gregeagle20) (24.175.216.76)
Rating: N/A |
I don't see any reason to personally attack Fred and he has many good practical things that he has shared. But I still would like to know the refernce that he may be using that has convinced him that a total electric RV is less safe than one that contains electric AND propane. I can understand prefering one or the other for various reasons but safety records are what they are and have nothing to do with opinion. Point me in a direction towards the resource Fred as I really am interested and surprised. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.45) Rating: N/A |
Even if someone could produce statistics of safety comparing a propane vs. a TEC, they would be terribly inaccurate. Think about how many TEC factory RVs you have seen. I have never seen one. Someone may give an example, but I don't know of one. Even the high dollar bus-like RVs usually have an RV fridge that runs on propane or a propane grill in the bay. My point is that with hundreds of thousands of RVs on the road using propane and only a small handfull of TEC created by private parties, there is no basis for statistiacal analysis. I used to work in RV repair. And I have seen scary LP installations i.e. kinks in copper, long unsupported copper runs etc. and I have seen scary wiring situations, i.e. corrosion, loose wire nuts on solid wire, way undersized wires, charred ground blocks etc. So my opinion is that neither a TEC nor propane RV is any safer than the other. Both are unsafe if good maintenance and installation techniques are not practiced. The "code" does permit solid romex and many, many factory RVs use it, but I chose to use stranded instead. I did use wire nuts on stranded in a few places like the 10ga. to 8ga. junction coming out of my genset. Other connections are with crimped connectors. The idea of solid copper twisted around a screw in a moving vehicle bothers me a bit. Just my way. Scott | ||
| bob-m (68.35.160.19) Rating: N/A |
I have a totally electric 4104 the only batteries i have in the coach are the 2 8d s. I have a house refrigerator (side by side) and a house type electric stove and oven (220) have a 15kw generator powered by a 2-53 detroit with a hospital zone muffler and a 100 gallon tank uses about a gallon per hour. When my insurance carrier evaluated my coach they made an exception to their policy of not insuring home made units because of the lack of propane or gasoline. I hope they don't contact fast fred i guess he knows more than they do | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.154.176.51)
Rating: N/A |
Jim Shepherd, My coach has wire nuts for the fan motor or each of the toe kick and wall electric heaters (6 total). The manufacturer recommends yearly cleaning an lubircation of the fan motors and this facilitates removing them. These can be seen through the heater grill. There are no other wire nuts in this professional conversion. There is a terminal block at each location and each wire is terminated in a 3/16" round fitting and joins its mate under a nut on a terminal strip. I would not like wire nuts in hidden locations. I have seen a romex with THHN stranded wire, but it is never on sale an the building supply stores. No cheaper than conduit and THHN stranded wire. | ||
| FAST FRED (65.154.176.40) Rating: N/A |
My point was that many folks get on this board , or write on BC about the "dangers" of a propane camper.And how there going to create a "safe" TEC. I personally have never seen the danger , in propane (correctly done) , just as I see little danger in a TEC (correctly done). Unfortunatly to do a TEC coach the safest (for me) the self serving RVIA trash code must be used if at all with great care. No mooving vehicles in the world can use their wiring practices. My preference is for aircraft or marine proven items. The TEC concept works great for the PP folks , I am doubtfull about the ability to go boondocking sucessfully for long tho. We don't know yet if the fire in DML was caused by unsuitable equippment (house or house trailer stuff in an RV) or by the lack of safies on the selected fire starter. Or by some other cause. But for the folks that SCREAM a TEC is safer than any propane system . I am hopeing its a learning experience. The insurance co probably will not be anxious to release much of their statistics , as it would be too easy to come up with a cost vs payments table , and see how profitable their businesses are. As to "realbusowner" "and to be able to verify his information" save up for a bus ride to a library , and have the nice lady there read the Jan issue of Motorhome to you. Nice of you to add to the usefull knowledge and constructive Opinions found on the boards. FAST FRED | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (208.186.37.186)
Rating: N/A |
As far as I am aware, both methods of heating and powering a bus/motorhome/etc have their good and bad points. BUT what it all comes down to is whether the systems are maintained. Propane systems do not just burst into flames, especially with the fail-safes built in. They have had to be built to a much safer standard than their Electric equivalent. The Electric systems need just as much maintence, but this is often forgotten. People forget that the build-up of dust and fluff can ignite when that element gets hot. I don't think any figures will prove one way or the other as there is the "Human Factor" involved. For example: You can have 100 all electric coaches owned and operated by fools compared to 100 propane coaches operated by experts, which ones are going to burn more often? The answer could be the expert's ones because they think they know it all and do little maintenance, whereas the fools know they are incompetant and therefore follow the appliance maintenance instructions exactly. Peter. | ||
| Jim Wilke (12.46.52.74) Rating: N/A |
Peter, what are you thinking??? 1. Fools NEVER know they are incompetant! If they did, they wouldn't be fools. 2. And...a true expert KNOWS he & his equipment is falable and acts accordingly. (Maintenance, checklists, backup plans, vigilance while operating equipment, etc.) Jim-Bob Somewhere between 1 & 2. | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (208.186.37.186)
Rating: N/A |
Jim-Bob, Damn, you saw straight through my "example", thought I would get rumbled, but not that quick.......... LOL. You win the prize, full dispensation for whatever system you have in your bus........ Peter. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.22) Rating: N/A |
OK, so here is a practical question: If you must leave a bus unattended in freezing weather(let's say for a week), but want to protect the bus from freeze damage, what is the SAFEST way to maintain unattended heating in the bus? (lets say we want the minimum temp inside the bus to be 50 deg. and we don't expect the o'nite lows to go below 15 deg.) a) Webasto b) Electric portables c) Toe Kicks d) RV Furnace e) RV Catalytic (vented) f) RV Catalytic (unvented) h) Dickenson diesel range i) Other diesel stove j) mini nuke reactor k) geothermal l) other? Scott | ||
| chris-d (68.35.160.19) Rating: N/A |
use thermostatically controlled portable electric heaters two to one fast fred doesn't own a bus | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Why all the venom toward Fast Fred? The guy is posting his observations, and he's not saying anything that is outside the bounds of reality. Wether or not I agree with him (Actually I'm rigidly Ambivalent on this matter) I like to read what he's got to say. Hell--as far as I read he hasn't taken a strong position either. There are numerous notable and interesting contributions to the list from people that don't have a bus. Take a pill for chrissakes. Gary | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
Scott, based on my actual experience, I would go for a Webasto and a genset with an automatic start that starts it when the batteries get down to a certain level. (This is in case you do not have shore power.) With a full tank of diesel fuel, you can go several weeks like this. The Webasto must have a heat exchanger of some type in the bays where the water tank and pumps are. I operated this way last winter here in West Virginia. I kept the thermostat set on about 45 degrees and the Webasto performed flawlessly the whole time. I also have (had) electric toe kick heaters, but there was no heater in the bay, and the electric heaters did not seem to circulate the heat as well as the Webasto did. I guess if I had used the electric heaters DML would have burned down last winter instead of last week. Richard | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Sam-- All the links I can find try to sell me an NEC Codebook, same as NEMA or ABYC. I have access to ABYC regs when I need them, but none of the others. When I was an Apprentice as a Millwright/Electrician, we didn't use solid conductor wire on anything, because of the high-vibration environment. When I worked in the RV industry we DID in fact use "House Wire". This among numerous other cost-cutting measures helped us to decide that our coach will be built by us, rather than minimum-wage goofballs. If you want to use (Or have used) Romex and wire nuts, best of luch to you. I'm doing my best to build something that is better than I can buy. Gary | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (66.229.106.83)
Rating: N/A |
Chris-d - FWIW, Fast Fred does own a bus, a 4106, in fact. It's all right to have an opposing viewpoint, that's what makes the boards so interesting. But personal attacks simply because you disagree with an opinion are unwarranted and unnecessary. Didn't your parents teach you that if you can't say something nice about somebody, don't say anything at all? RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| R C Bishop (128.123.221.190)
Rating: N/A |
Glad to have you back, RJL...  RCB '64 Crown HWC | ||
| Tony (216.207.2.105) Rating: N/A |
Good Job RJ | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230) Rating: N/A |
Hi Gary, You ask,"Why all the venom toward Fast Fred?" I think some of us feel his statements are "saying anything outside the bounds of reality." An example: "...the self serving RVIA trash code must be used if at all with great care. No mooving vehicles in the world can use their wiring practices." In my opinion that statement is outside reality because hundred of thousands of RVs have been manufactured under the "RVIA trash code" Now, as for you, I will view any future posts from you in the same light as the posts from Fast Fred. When you made your statement "A coach wired with Romex and Wire nuts, is asking to die in fiery flames,..." you put your self in his catagory. You futher discredited yourself when you responded to my post asking for facts or statistics to back up that statement by responding with more wrong information. By the way, what are the NEMA code and the ABYC regulations and how do they relate to bus conversions? After you made those incorrect rebutals to my request for facts or statistics you didn't post an apology or correct your previous post. If you had you would have regained some credibility. Everyone makes mistakes but it takes courage to admit that you are wrong. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Sam, I'm crushed. I actually live to have guys like you follow my methods to the letter and regale me as the ultimate authority on all things mechancial and electrical. Also, feel free to classify FF's statement together. He and I are in complete 100% agreement on these statements. (Incidently, FF and I have never communicated directly) RVIA (Recreational Vehicle Industry Association) Is a national trade association that represents RV manufacturers, conversion vehicle manufacturers, and suppliers. It is Trash code, made up by the guys that are subject to the regulations. (Some here know what I'm talking about.) It is in the interest of profitibility of the members of the Industry, not in promoting a higher level of craftsmanship nor greater longevity of the coach. So, back to FF's post. I read Fred's "No mooving vehicles in the world can use their wiring practices.." to mean No other kind of vehicle than an RV (FF Correct me if I'm wrong). Go find me an automobile that uses solid-conductor wiring. there isn't one. (I work in the Automotive harness Industry). I further agree that I want my coach built on ABYC Standards, that I am familiar with. (I don't know anything about Airplane consturction) Also, this is a governing body with a very long history of safety, and represents the safety of the boater and not the interests of the boatyard. Now--I don't give a hefty hairy rat's ass if I "Win or lose" an argument here. but it seems you are looking for some kiind of affirmation. As I said originally, Solid Conductor wiring in any automotive application (A Bus is an Automotive application) is not OK. Plain and simple. I also mentioned that I don't have a codebook here. The last time I had one, RVs were not mentioned. So go ahead and wire your coach with "Home Depot" wire. Whatever you do, don't think about every place you wrapped it around the screw terminal. Gary | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (208.186.37.186)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, If solid conductor wire is not okay, then do tell me what you are going to use for your 120 volt circuits? You can't use marine wire, because it is not code for vehicles, some have used multistranded drop cords and others have said that is dangerous. What are we poor individuals to do? Peter. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
I'm going to use Marine wire and if I ever get called on it, I'm going to look them straight in the eye and tell them it's a land yacht. Seriously, Stephen above already gave the right answer. Sorry, MY OPINION of the the best way to do it. Gary | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60) Rating: N/A |
i'm planning on using tinned stranded wire for all my 110vac circuits.... terminate each run to an appliance or plug... no junctions what-so-ever....in pvc conduit, no less....and seperate runs, in additional pvc conduit for the 12vdc lights.... i'll have 1 gas burner and 1 electric element in my range-top...and a mirco/convection oven...i plan on crimping/soldering terminals as necessary....i kinda like the way chris-craft did it on my boat.... only gonna have 6-8 circuits... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Hey Jim, the way you mentioned, is how I am doing the roamer, but for the bus....I dunno. I may end up tinning and wrapping. Sorta wishy-washy on that detail. Stephen's THHN is consistent with my training. I may end up doing that. Also, so/sjo (Extension) cord is another alternative that works. I too am installing PVC Couduit, I'm trying to have things as re-enterable as possible. Gary | ||
| Dale MC8 (69.19.175.129)
Rating: N/A |
OK, I've been following this thread and have read several posts asking about the ABYC code with NO ANSWER. You may be right, but just what IS the ABYC code? Dale | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230) Rating: N/A |
Hi Gary, I think by now we have agreed that we disagree, but you still haven't offered any facts or statistics, nor have you explained what the NEMA code and the ABYC standards are and how they relate to bus conversions. Specifically I would like to know what the letters NEMA and ABYC are acronyms for. If you would like to read section 551 of the National Electric Code you can see it at your local library or your city electrical inspectors office. As to my post regarding Fast Fred, you asked "Why all the venom toward Fast Fred?", and I gave you my opinion. Obviously you don't agree so feel free to live with your version of reality, it just differs with mine. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent,MN | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60) Rating: N/A |
gary....i traded into 6 rolls 500' long of 14 ga. tinned stranded marine wire...4 colors.....kind of a lopsided trade.... i got rid of a '79 wagoneer that i had about $200 in....1 of my better deals, i think....so thats what i'm using on my mci-9.... and im going to re-wire the roamer while i'm at it....repower the roamer.. retank the roamer....replate the roamer..... | ||
| Ken Turner (198.81.26.38)
Rating: N/A |
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=ABYC+code%2F+rv&btnG=Google+Search DROP the "RV" off the search title to re search And get a little diferent info... In my opinion ..what electrics AC OR Dc used on pleasure boats and bigger vessels,Would be superior to what is used on the Sticks n staples (I was a merchant seaman for over 50 yrs) NO fires......... Ken | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
ABYC: http://www.abycinc.org/ American Boat and Yacht Council NEMA: http://www.nema.org/ National Electrical Manufacturers Association. They are a standards-based forum for electrical equipment. I actually work for a living. I don't really have time to run to the library to settle arguments, especially for something as juvenile as this. I did some searches on the net on NEC Article 551, and usually I'm able to ferret out what I need but in this case, I can only get Hookup instructions for Inverters, various RV electrical components. EVERY one that I saw specifies Stranded Hookup wire as well as vague references to Article 551. However, I did come up with this reference: In: http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/electrics/chapt10.htm I see: ...wiring in your coach... ...use multi-stranded, flexible wiring whenever possible. Solid conductor wire, which is suitable for stationary usage in buildings, is susceptible to fatigue and failure when subjected to the flexing and vibration.... Hmm sounds familiar.. In any case, even if somehow, in the incredibly poor judgement of the NEC, they have since allowed solid conductors for RV use, it only serves as evidence of how poor the quality of RV Standards are. You have stated I have discredited myself by indicating that Romex and Wire nuts do not belong in a moving vehicle. You further post that I need to post an apology to regain some of my credibility. I'm not sure that is agreeing to disagree. I think you're looking for some kinda brownie points for picking a fight on this list and citing reference that I have neither the time or the inclination to research beyond the confines of the Internet, thereby winning an argument or something. I've been doing electrical and mechanical work since I was about seven years old. It's as second nature as driving a tractor is for a farm kid. Solid-Conductor wiring, Especially secured with wire-nuts does not belong in a moving vehicle. Plain and simple. I am advising to err on the side of caution, you are advising to forgo caution and take the cheap route. I'm pretty comfortable with my position on this. What a dumb argument. Gary | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Jim--Great score. Too bad you didn't get some 12ga in the bargain. 14 is good though you just have to watch how many devices you have per circuit. Are you going to basically replace the roamer's existing system, or are you making changes? Paper fuses won't pass survey, if that's an issue. Gary | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60) Rating: N/A |
most of the wiring i've pulled apart is tinned, stranded wire... 14 ga...i'm going to add a searchlight circuit....and another circuit to the v-berth for an rv style air conditioner....and change the fuse panel to breakers from the screw-in glass fuses....all i have is the older 3kw ccv onan....i will completely rewire the 12vdc stuff....it's been patched, spliced....i'm looking for a modern instrument panel... i found some 3126 cat diesels... may use those....if i do, theres an annunciator panel for engine controls....deutz connectors on all connections.. helps to work for a cat dealer sometimes..... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Hey Jim, Sounds good. do you have a "One Mile Ray?" searchlight? You're going to put a rooftop air on the foredeck? I already have magnetic breakers on my 56', too many in fact, I'm going to salvage some of them for the bus. I also need to find a modern busbar (Not the old phenolic thing) that is modular, not coming up with anything in my surplus locations though. From one of my sources, I scored about 20 rolls of misc cauge and color automotive wire. This will cover most of my low-voltage coach stuff. I will probably use Marine Romex for the 110v stuff. Monday night is sushi night, it's time to go eat bait. Later, Gary |