| Author | Message | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.154.176.85)
Rating: |
I'd like to post this anonymously, but I won't. I ran out of fuel on the way to Thanksgiving Dinner at 2AM in the morning. My fuel gauge had finally quit, but the real problem was that I forgot when I had last filled up and thought it was more recently. I always try to buy fuel in Georgia since it is a lot cheaper. I missed the Brunswick stops because there was no longer a Flying J. Advertised prices were $1.289/gal. Pulled off at the next exit, DARIEN, GA and all prices were $1.599/gal, really high for Georgia. So I left without buying, thinking I had few hundred miles left in the tank. The bus immediately lost power on the entrance ramp and then ran OK again. I pulled off at the next exit but I couldn't make it over the overpass to the station. We had nothing to carry fuel in and could only buy 2 gallon containers. My son and I ferried 12 gallons to the bus in three trips with the help of a local sheriff deputy (Thanks, Libery County!) We were told by truckers and local staff that the engine would restart and prime itself by running it using starting fluid. It would not hold a prime. Finally had to call for a mechanic. I thought he would bring an electric pump and reprime it. He didn't. He just sprayed more starting fluid, and when it did not prime and run on diesel, pronounced that I did not have enough fuel in the tank yet. He towed me to the station, using a light chain with me steering and braking the bus. Filled the tanks and again used starting fluid, foot to the floor until it caught on diesel, then high idle to purge the rest of the air. It worked. Lessons learned. 1. As in flying, never pass up fuel. Add at least enough to make it to an exit with a better price even if the price is outrageous and I think I have enough already. 2. Keep a fuel log so I know whether I filled up or not. I had passed the Georgia line coming home when prices were unusually high last year and elected to wait for a complete fill up, then forgot that I did not fill up as I always do. 3. A passenger in the bedroom can hear engine changes with fuel problems that cannot be heard by the driver. My son was resting and had been hearing engine hiccoughs occasionally for a half hour but did not know to tell me. 4. A Detroit Diesel will self prime if run long enough with enough fuel in the tank. It can be kept running to prime with starter fluid or WD 40. Not the best method, but it works. It may be all you are offered by a mechanic on a service call in some areas, so make up your mind if you will accept this or wait for another mechanic. 5. If we had delilvered another 10 or 20 gallons of fuel to the bus we could have Started it the same way the mechanic did. Tow was unnecessary. We just needed bigger fuel cans. I plan to carry two new 5 gallon oil buckets with the lids unattached for the future. Buckets can be used for clean storage unless needed, then lids will be pounded on and 10 gallons of fuel can be carried per trip. Also need a funnel or extension hose to reach fuel fill. I could have insisted that the mechanic deliver the fuel or go home and let me get another mechanic. Something to consider if he wants to do a long tow for fuel fill up only. 5. It takes 8 gallons to raise the fuel level 1 inch in a wide flat bottom bus tank. With the splash and motion of fuel in the tank, the engine will keep runnig when the fuel pickup is only in fuel part of the time. It is possible to drive the bus to below empty they be unable to start it even after more than 10 gallons of fuel is added. Refuel generously before trying. Truckers and truck stop employees will think it takes less because they have round bottom tanks and 5 gallons raises the fuel level a lot more. 6. I could have used the manual leveling system to tilt the bus to the right side where the fuel pick up is to be sure the fuel pickup was immersed in fuel. 7. Currently I have no fuel gauge or odometer. I have a new speedometer with odometer and trip odometer and it now gets priority installation. 8. An electric fuel pump with proper check valves and in parallel with the main fuel pump would have paid for itself this one time. I talked to a local mechanic about this. he said I had not damaged my engine but that the engine does not lubricate the cylinders as well using starting fluid and recommended WD 40 for running the engine to reprime if I insist on running out of fuel again. He said the proper method is to put an electric pump on the system and reprime without running the engine. | ||
| Phil Dumpster (12.230.214.167) Rating: N/A |
All right, let's see the small army that came out of the woodwork to blast me for using starting fluid to start a cold Detroit on a winter morning come forth and weigh in on this. No doubt you'll hear all sorts of "you ruined your engine" condemnations. For what it's worth, I was in the local Harbor Freight toy store yesterday and in the automotive section they had a "fluid transfer pump" which was all metal (as opposed to the plastic orange ones you see all over the place) looking like the barrel of a grease gun but without the handle or trigger. It has a T handle on one end to operate the pump, and two fittings on the rear, both threaded, one for inlet and one for the outlet. Each had a check valve, the inlet facing in and the outlet facing out. Best of all was the price - $7.99. I was thinking of how trivially easy it would be to plumb one into the fuel lines back by the engine and fashion some way to mount it to the ceiling of the engine compartment, along with a bypass valve. Normal running position would be to have the valve in the open position. To prime, close the bypass valve and start pumping until you feel the diesel flowing through the pump chamber, then give it a few more pump strokes for good measure. Then open the bypass valve and start the engine. I had a Mercedes diesel years ago which had a small plunger operated priming pump built into the check valve assembly coming off of the main engine-mounted fuel pump. You unscrewed the handle about a half-dozen turns which closes its bypass valve, and then pump it repeatedly until you feel the change in resistance and sound indicating you were pumping diesel instead of air, then you screwed the handle down which both locked it in place and opened the bypass valve. According to my Flyer service manual for the D901 coach with 160 gallon fuel tank, it takes a mininum of 20 gallons in the tank to prime the fuel system. Some small boats have a fuel can designed to hold a reserve of a few quarts of fuel in a separate part of the fuel can. When you run out, you pick up the can and dump the reserve into the main part of the tank, and then motor home. Perhaps a second tank of about 20 gallons can be added, with an electric pump plumbed via valves to allow filling it from the main tank, and then dumping it back into the main tank if you run out of fuel. | ||
| Bob (Bobb) (216.232.224.234)
Rating: N/A |
After running my bus out of fuel on its maiden voyage home, I thought that an electric pump built into the circuit would be nice.. a couple of valves to isolate it until needed. My first lesson with the bus included the first night camping in it somewhere in Colorado. The first cold night of the year. The gas station opened at 7 in the morning, and I was there before them. I put 10 gallons into the tank, which by the way is what the MCI manual says is required, and then filled the empty fuel filters. A shot of ether, and a few cranks and it fired right up. Honest, the fuel gauge said it was full. As far as ether goes, when its cold out, it sometimes takes half a small can to get the detroit or cummins powering my graders going.. even after being plugged in for awhile. "Ether" that, or they just won't go. | ||
| FAST FRED (63.233.189.70) Rating: N/A |
Ether in a cold engine is the DD method of startts below 40F. Above 40 its your call. A friend cautioned me that the old WD40 spray in the intake no longer works. The Tree Huggers were concerned about the Voc's ( Volatile Organic Compounds{kerosene}) in the old formula , and he claims the new WD 40 is water bases with penetrants. Haven't checked this RUMOR out , but as it was in the old days, when it was Time , we got a few cases of Freon & a half dozen 30 lb cans ,,, vintage WD anyone? FAST FRED | ||
| Chuck Lott (68.154.17.80) Rating: N/A |
I seems to me that that most common road mechanical troubles are running out of fuel or a flat/blown tire. One of the first things that I learned after buying my bus was how to re-prime the fuel system. I made a trip into Atlanta to Coach Services for a 10 minute tutorial from the nice shop guys.Since then, I've plumbed in an electric fuel pump, for such emergencies. When I bought my MC5 (second bus) It had a neat log book, updated every day the bus was in service. The driver recorded the begining and ending mileage, destination, and fuel purchaced. This was a church bus and their policy was to fill the tank after every day of use. A good policy, although the driver was probably not as concerned with the cost of fuel at a particular station as most of us are. We all have that tendancy to hope theres cheaper fuel at the next exit. I'll definetly keep a log book with my MC8 as soon as we put it in service. I do have a fuel gauge, But I'll use the hubodometer and log book as the "official" gauge. FMCA (as well as others) road service with towing / flat tire and general road help for $80 a year ( and covers all my vehicles) is a bargain for bus owners! Carry a servicable spare tire and cell phone. Happy Bussin! Chuck | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.20)
Rating: N/A |
The reason Detroits are so hard to prime when they run out of fuel is because the fuel pump is a gear pump, not a diaphram type. It will not prime itself if is it dry. Loading the engine up with ether and spinning the starter will not always work, if the pump is dry it will have a rough time priming itself at engine cranking speed. Bob must of had just enough fuel in the system to pick up the prime. The correct procedure for priming the engine when you run out is to first remove the fuel filters and fill them with fuel, then use a priming pump of some sort through the spare inlet hole in the secondary fuel filter housing. The check valve (which every bus shuld have) will keep the fuel being primed going through the engine and return line instead of back through the primary filter and fuel tank. Once the engine starts the fuel gear pump will spin fast enough to pull the fuel out of the primary filter. Doing it the proper way will save wear and tear on your engine, starter and batteries. Also, I think a working fuel gauge is worth it's weight in gold! Never let your tank go below empty and you will never need a priming pump. To me the work involved in putting in a fuel gauge is better than the work of putting in a permanent electric fuel pump that you rarely, if ever, need. Having said that, I do think every bus owner should carry spare fuel filters, a couple of gallons of fuel (old plastic oil jugs work great), and a $20 electric fuel pump from i.e. Auto Zone, along with enough rubber hose and barbed fitting to make the connection to the fuel filter housing. After all, you neve know when one of our friends might run out of fuel! --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.36)
Rating: N/A |
Well Stephen, I guess you will understand why I will say no if you want to borrow my airplane. I had to prime my bus a half dozen times and had no real difficulty, just fill the filters and she will crank up and pick up the prime. You DID change over to screw on filters didn't you? I think the condition of the fuel pump, how much down hill you are parked, how much fuel is in the tank all play a part, but I was always with a full tank when doing it. And old trucker trick: It is very hard at 2am to obtain some diesel to fill the filters, but you have some oil along, right? Fill the filter with motor oil, it works great and seems to work even better than diesel fuel. If you have any pet mosquitos crawling around the back bumper, you may want to put them back inside first. | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.36)
Rating: N/A |
Chuck I get the same coverage on all my vehicles from my primary insurance company, only $6 a year! I even call the same 800 number. You might want to check it out with your insurance company, most offer this coverage for a very low price, includes coming out with fuel and priming the bus even! | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.20)
Rating: N/A |
Donn-- if all you did when you ran out of fuel is fill the filters then you must of shut the engine down at the very first sign that you were running out of fuel. That is learned from experience! If a driver keeps trying to run the engine it will have to be primed. Good tip. BTW, do you really think a tow truck driver is going to be equiped to prime your Detroit fuel system? I doubt it! All they will do is pour fuel in the tank, I would be surprised if they filled the fuel filters, much less had a pump to prime the engine. Detroit 2-cycles are the only engines that have to be manually primed, and how many 2-cycle Detroits are still on the road except in buses? --Geoff | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.50) Rating: N/A |
I felt fortunate that my coach had a fuel gauge when I bought her, until I discovered... in the middle of nowhere... in the pitch black of night... much to my dispair...that fuel gauges sometimes lie ALOT, while they are still working, giving the impression they are working ACCURATELY. Mine was at 1/4 full 19 miles from my intended fuel stop at 3am in late November... Tell me how lucky I was that I had a friend of mine and his dad, following me in his diesel bus, all of us diesel mechanics. I already have the check valves and a 24v fuel pump to prime the engine should it happen again. And, I definitely need to replace either the gauge or the sender. I tested the sender, and found that sure enough, at the bottom of it's travel the gauge reads 1/4... and in the maintenance records I found where the sender has just been replaced. So, either the sender was replaced when the gauge was goofy, or it's the wrong sender... it's probably the wrong sender. We put in about 9 gallons that morning, as I recall, but we were on an up-slope, and because the road had fairly steep drop off the coach was tilted towards the edge of the road on the fuel pickup side, though we were still on pavement in the breakdown lane. AND still it took several tries of filling and refilling the fuel filters... seems to me we cracked opened a return line, too... Probably 20 gallons would have done the trick quicker. Actually, I still feel fortunate my coach has a fuel gauge, but will be very happy when the tank and gauge agree. Brian | ||
| diger-ee-doo (207.109.1.73) Rating: N/A |
Geoff, While I generally agree with most everything you post, and value your experience and opinions greatly, I must respectfully disagree with your above post. Please correct me if you feel I'm missing something here. First, if you connect into the secondary filter, you are only pushing fuel through that filter and the rack, not the pump. Therefore, if the pump is dry, it will stay that way. The engine will turn over from the fuel in the rack, but it won't stay running unless the pump is primed. Second, on some buses, most notably MC9s, the check valve is in the return line, not the supply line, and therefore will do nothing to keep the fuel from going backwards through the supply line to the tank. Actually, in your scenario, this might work to your advantage as the fuel would then fill the pump, primary filter, and supply line, and so could be pushed to the secondary filter and rack upon cranking. In my humble opinion, the best way to prime a bus is with an electric pump installed in parallel with the supply line. Make sure it produces a pressure of 13-18 PSI, no higher. I suggest using ball valves to isolate it, as check valves are very expensive, and prone to leak if they are allowed to dry out, as can happen when they sit unused for long periods of time (e.g. bus conversions). The pump should be installed between the fuel tank pickup and the primary filter, with the optimal placement being at the tank pickup to push fuel through the entire system. Just my opinion. And it's worth every penny you paid for it. | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.43)
Rating: N/A |
Boy are you ever catching it this morning Geoff. I NEVER run out of fuel, so you are probably correct there, when fuel line disassembly is going on, the pump is still full of course. My situations were always in shop with a full tank of fuel, on the level. I tried one of those situations where the nose was waaaaay down hill from the engine, takes a lot to get fuel waaaaaaay up to the engine when the tank is low on fuel too. My 3406B Cat was a manual prime beast too, but Cat was smart enough to put a manual pump right on the filter housing, remember that? Wish DD had been smart enough to think of that, or maybe Cat patented the idea and DD could not do that. | ||
| bobm (68.35.160.19) Rating: N/A |
I use the original a/c engine gas tank in my 4104 as a spare w/ a transfer pump switchable to either my main tank or generator tank. Inexpensive and accurate fuel guages can be made using an air pressure guage. put a small vertical tube in the tank to the bottom. the amount of air necessary to blow a bubble is proportional to the depth in fuel. calibrate the guage by adding fuel with five gallon cans, especially good for odd shaped tanks. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.20)
Rating: N/A |
Hi, diger-ee-doo(?) I don't mind someone disagreeing with me, in fact, I like it because if I am wrong I want to know and if all we need is more clarification, further discussion will bring it out! On your points, when you prime through the secondary filter the engine will start instantly, stumble a bit, then purge the air out of the system. The fuel pump will pick up the prime with the engine running, it is when you are cranking that it doesn't want to prime up. I have used this method for years and it works fine, you just have to keep the rpm's high and not let it idle at 500 rpm as the air is purged from the system. The problem with priming the engine from the primary filter is that it is not as direct, takes longer and if you don't do it long enough you have to do it over again. Also, you have to worry about the fuel pump seals-- if they are old, they may go bad from being pressurized. If they are fairly new, they might just leak a little with no damage. If you have an MCI with the incorrectly installed by the factory check valve in the return line (another topic) then you should pinch off the inlet fuel line to the secondary filter with a pair of vice grips. --Geoff | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.216.23) Rating: N/A |
I had a fuel filter plug up ON the scales in Tenn. YA' talk about some pissed off people !..it always "seems" that you run out of fuel at the wrong time,night,raining,snowing...when it gets 1/2 tank...I'm lookin' for another fuel stop..diesel is like p - - - y....better to have too much,than not enough | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (69.3.74.216)
Rating: N/A |
Brian96 - my gauge doesn't move from 1/4. The sender buzzes. How did you check/verify sender? I have a meter - does the sender vary the voltage to the gauge? | ||
| Henry Draper (146.129.147.120) Rating: N/A |
Hi Folks, I haven't seen anyone put forward my (and others!) solution to this problem yet, so I guess it falls to me! It starts with the wise, oldtimer saying, "Only those with fuel gauges run out of fuel." My Eagle has a fuel guage, but when the dash was redone, it never got connected to the fuel tank sender. (It's a pretty guage though! Not the only disconnected guage on my dash, either! But that's another story.) The guy I bought it from had a weighted cord that he dipped into the tank, listened until he heard the weights hit the bottom of the tank, pulled out and read the tank level. I've used that method every since--about six years and 30 to 40 thousand miles. Have never run out of fuel. So my suggestion is--don't depend on the guage! Checking it manually, knowing your rig's fuel consumption (I average around seven MPG, but use six to calculate how far my remaining fuel will take me) and start looking for fuel (regardless of price!) if I get below an eight of a tank. I try not to get below 1/4 tank. I've taken to heart all the horror stories about running out to fuel and priming the pump. They all help keep me focused on checking that dip cable! Henry Draper '64 Eagle Edmonds, WA | ||
| Jojo Colina (Du1jec) (209.75.20.72)
Rating: N/A |
If you really want an accurate sense of your fuel situation. Get a Floscan and every time you fill your tanks reset the totalizer. It will tell you how much fuel you have consumed since reset as well as the GPH. Now unless you have a major leak or are wrong about your tanks initial capacity you will know what your exact fuel situation is. Keep your current fuel gauge to warn you if you are losing fuel due to a major leak. | ||
| diger-ee-doo (207.109.1.73) Rating: N/A |
Geoff, Thanks for the clarification. If I understand you, you are saying that the detroit fuel pump WILL pick up prime even if dry, given enough engine RPM? Ok, if that's the case (I wasn't aware it would, so that's my "learn something new" topic for today) I can understand your explaination, given a check valve on the supply side. Is there a risk of damage to the pump by running it when it's dry? Curious on your thoughts regarding the "incorrectly installed by the factory" check valve. My understanding is that's the way all MCIs were plumbed. Not saying I agree with it, but curious as to your thoughts. Also, I'm not sure I'd want to pinch off the supply line to the secondary filter. Seems to me that line is pretty stiff, and may contain metal braiding inside it?? I would be concerned it might stay restricted. Good info. I think the most important thing is for each of us to understand how the system works so we can make an informed decision on how to approach the problem individually. I like my priming pump. Don't regret spending the extra time and money. Have used it more than once, and will continue to use it. My only regret is that I put the check valve in, rather than a ball valve. But I've found if I exercise it periodically, the check valve works ok. I'm also curious about your comments regarding the seals going bad from pressurizatioin. My understanding is that the pump should put out less than about 20psi to prevent this, which is why I said 13-18 psi. In thinking about this, I'm wondering how much pressure the Detroit pump produces. I guess I don't know the answer to this, but was thinking it was around 22 psi. Maybe you can clarify this. It seems to me that using an electric pump which produces less pressure than the mechanical pump poses no more risk to the seals than the mechanical pump itself poses. Comments? | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.130.10.134)
Rating: N/A |
I saw a few responses talking about carrying spare fuel in small cans. One point of this post is that it takes a lot of fuel to bring the level up in a bus tank. Don't expect 5 gallons to do it. The capacitive fuel gauge senders are very accurate and can be relied on. Then, like flying, never go to 1/8th tank. Float types are prone to sticking and errors and reallly only give general information. Westberg instruments, in California can supply a capacitive sender for your gauge if you give them the numbers on the back of the gauge. You might tell the wife that if she is napping in the bedroom and hears the engine hiccoughing, tell you immediately. The engine is still primed then, just picking up some air at times. You cannot hear this from the drivers seat. | ||
| T Gojenola (24.237.70.61)
Rating: N/A |
Probably the simplest and most efficient way of priming a DD I have seen is that which is used by the local Cruise/tour bus shops, as well as the DD shop here in Anchorage. Just get yourself a cheap plastic 3-gallon agricultural hand sprayer tank - the kind with a pressure pump on top. It will come with about a 5ft hose and a spray nozzle at the end. You can either replace the hose with another, or change the spray nozzle to whatever barb fittings required. Fill it with fuel and hook the end of the hose up to the primary filter housing and give it a few pumps. Two gallons will fill the filters, the fuel pump, racks and all. Works every time, assuming sufficient fuel in the main tank to reach the pickup tube. I keep one in the rig - $17 including the fitting. | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.50) Rating: N/A |
I just spent about an HOUR typing and an error caused my server to kick me offline just before I posted!!!! AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHhhhhh. This is the upshot of it I know if I didn't have a gauge on my tank I'd figure a way to get one on it. Why has every other vehicle manufacturer of every type for the past 50 years put a fuel gauge on their equipment, but not the bus industry? What is up with that? I'm pretty certain if one of the big automakers stopped installing fuel gauges in their vehicles, they'd become a small company, and quickly. Chuck, most fuel senders work by varying the resistance to ground. With the "key" on or the engine running and the wire to the sender off, run a jumper wire from ground to it. The gauge should peg to FULL. If it doesn't peg full the gauge is bad or the wire from the sender is. To test the gauge involves access to the back of the gauge. With the key on, use a meter and determine which terminal post has power to the gauge, the opposite post should go to the sender, with a jumper wire ground that terminal, if the gauge pegs the needle to full, the gauge is good, the wire to the sender is bad. If the gauge doesn't move, the gauge is bad. If the gauge and wire test good, test the sender, To test the sender make certain the level of the fuel is below the sender. Unscrew the sender with the wire off, carefully remove it and the float (you may have to rotate the sender)to remove it. Reattach the sender wire, clip your jumper wire from ground to the rim of the sender, with the key on, and someone looking at the gauge, move the float arm through its full arc, if the gauge does not move, the sender is bad. If at some point in the arc the gauge needle drops and does not move until you raise the arm again, the sender is bad. I hope that helps Brian | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja) (67.117.218.131)
Rating: N/A |
Geoff: the spare inlet hole in the secondary fuel filter housing sounds like a great place to plumb in a primer pump... just tee it back into the return line? | ||
| Jim Wilke (12.46.52.74) Rating: N/A |
Let me just jump in with my $.02 worth. I carry one of those hand powered "utility pumps". Mine's a Par brand and I have about 5' of 3/8 fuel hose on the pickup & about 3' on the outlet. I have never yet run out of fuel but have opened my fuel system several times including to R & R the tank. I plumbed a 90 degree elbow, a ball valve & a hose barb to the vent fitting on the top of my primary (spin on) filter head. Tried the secondary filter head but found it was REALLY hard to pull fuel through the gear pump! If I am changing filters, I fill them both before installing with the 5 gallon jug of fuel I carry on board. If I have disassembled more than just the filter, I hook the suction to the barb fitting, put the outlet in the fuel jug then open the ball valve & pump the hand pump 'till I get clear fuel drawn from the tank. Then I close the ball valve. Pull the hose off the barb & the rest of the fuel runs down into the jerry jug. No mess, no fuss. The belt & suspenders types can replace the hose barb with a pipe plug. I don't. The hand pump is about $20 for a decent one & has no wires & switches to fool with. It is useful for other tasks too, which I think is important. When I had the tank out, I installed a genset pickup & a fuel gauge. I set the length of the sender float rod so that when it indicates empty, I have 200-250 miles left in the tank. By the way, I have tried WD several times lately & couldn't get the Detroit to even pop. But ether above 40 degrees can & will break piston rings! Jim-Bob | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.213.41) Rating: N/A |
they changed the formula on wd-40 about 10 years ago....I now use liquid wrench to fire up diesels & everything else I used to use WD-40 for...comes in a spray can...neat stuff...those pump-up sprayers are also good to cover a tire with soapy water...tells you quick where the tire leak is..try to do that with a windex bottle & you will be there all day trying to get the big tire wet.. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.53)
Rating: N/A |
This thread is really getting packed with good information! I'll answer my questions. First Peter, since it is short: What you want on the secondary filter inlet is a fitting that you can either cap off or a pipe plug with a hex head you can get off easily the next time around. You do not want to add a line there that goes back to the fuel tank. Perhaps a line that goes to a fuel pump if you want it permanent. diger-ee-do (is that the name of your bus,too?): 1) The fuel pump will pick up fuel IF the primary fuel filter is full and the engine is running. 2) Check valves belong on the primary side of the fuel system, not the return side. What good does a check valve on the return side do? You don't draw fuel out of the return line, and the return line is supposed to spill back into the fuel tank at the top where there is only air. The check valve is supposed to keep the fuel from draining back into the fuel tank, that is what is being "checked". If this doesn't explain it think about how a check valve works in a fuel system. 3) It is okay to pich off a steel braided fuel line-- it won't hurt it. However, if you have fancy stainless steel fuel lines you wouldn't want to pinch it off-- you will damage the plastic tube inside. 4) I use a hand priming pump to prime my engines that I got from Detroit (Donn, they make them, they just don't install them as standard equipment on the 2-strokes). The problem with electric pumps is that they won't force the fuel though the engine like a hand pump will, plus you can pressure check the fuel system (pressure side only) with the hand pump, vice grips, and a pressure gauge attached to the pump (standard eqipment for a Detroit mechanic, 2-stroke variety). 5) The maximum fuel pressure in our 2-strokes is 60 psi. The fuel pump seals are exposed to the suction side of the fuel system, not the pressure side. That is why they will start leaking at low pressure. If the seals are old and weak, by pressurizing the suction side of the pump to the extent the seals leak you are effectively forcing them open. The fuel pump seals look just like front or rear oil seals-- they have a lip and a spring around the inside to keep the lip sealed. Opening up the seals with pressure could weaken the seal (verb) and create a weakness that would later show up as air being sucked into the fuel pump. That is what usually goes wrong with fuel pumps-- they don't destruct, they go bad by starting to suck air. --Geoff | ||
| Johnny (63.159.200.43) Rating: N/A |
"Why has every other vehicle manufacturer of every type for the past 50 years put a fuel gauge on their equipment, but not the bus industry? What is up with that?" My guess is because city buses are fueled every day when they're parked. I've seen some older MDT's with no fuel gauge--you have to look in the tank (or dip it). What a PITA. | ||
| Scott Whitney (69.35.6.233) Rating: N/A |
My tank is supposed to hold about 95 gallons. (althought I'd swear one time I put 120 gallons in it) I get about 5-6mpg. I figure I have about 500-600 miles per tank. So I fill up every 300 miles or so. Makes a bit more fuel stops than I would like, but I know I am rarely more than 1/2 empty and can push my envelope by 100 miles or more if I need to. I can use a stretch or a whizz every 300 miles or so anyway. I also keep a broom stick and dip it manually just to make sure sometimes. I try to keep two full five gallon gerry cans with me too. A fuel gauge would be nice, but a log book works. I enter my miles traveled and gallons used into an Excel spreadsheet and have running MPG and other trip data. Entering the town or city name where I fuel up and the date is a good way to jog my memory of places I've taken the bus on trips etc. | ||
| Stan (24.67.45.35) Rating: N/A |
From way back in the 1950's MCI offered a fuel gauge as optional equipment. Charter busses usually had a gauge. Greyhound didn't need a gauge because the driver didn't monitor the fuel. He drove from A to B and got out of the seat. The service man fuelled the bus if it didn't have enough fuel for the next run. Don't depend entirely on mileage driven for the amount of fuel used. Facing a strong wind can cut fuel mileage in half. | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (12.75.170.141)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Folks: I have been reading this thread & just have to jump in. First to our brother Steve (who has beautiful!!! Prevost,for those who have not seen it), you knew better!!! Now to Johnny & hopefully for the benefit of all, I would offer the follow: First of all, the reason most buses or coaches (and yes there is a difference), in commercial service, do not have fuel gauges is that they are fueled at the end of each day, whether they have operating 20 miles or 500 miles. In the case of Greyhound, for example, the buses (and even before computers) were scheduled to operate "X" number of miles at which time, their passengers got off, the bus went to the shop for refueling, servicing of the restroom, interior cleaning etc. The passengers then got on another bus for the continuation of their journey, and it still works the same way today!!! WITHOUT FUEL GAUGES!!!!! Now!! The converted coach folks are using the same buses or coaches under different circumstances, but the principal is the same, namely they will not run without fuel!!!!! When I worked for operating bus companies and when I ran my own commercial buses, the rule to the driver was 500 miles & then fuel!!! Why???? Because, first of all, the driver needs a break from behind the wheel and also, at the bottom of each fuel tank are a bunch of "grungies" that you don't want going back to the fuel filters. Equally important for those that operate in "Cold Country" during the winter, your Detroit engine fulls much more fuel from the tank than it uses. The returning fuel into the tank is HOT!!!! Now, I know a bunch of us have been out of High School for a long time, but have not forgotten our basic physics course. If you put HOT liquid (diesel fuel) into a COLD sealed container (the fuel tank), then it is going to RAIN inside, due to condensation. So the answer, short of a fuel gauge, is to KEEP THE TANK FULL, and you will save yourself a bunch of grief. Now I had an MC-9 that we operated with a 144 gal. tank. Twice, while owning & operating the coach, we ran out of fuel after using just short of 100 gals. I can only guess that the bottom of the pick up tube in the fuel tank had deteriorated. I personally chased that bus twice because driver's, I was paying didn't listen!!! (Glad I am not in that business today). So, although budgets dictate what we can spend, put off something else, but keep your coach fuel tank FULL!!! It will prevent a bunch of grief down the road. I Hope this HELPS!!!! And Happy & Safe Bussin" to ALL!!!! LUKE at US COACH | ||
| jmaxwell (66.81.213.111) Rating: N/A |
I have a reasonably accurate guage, but I still use the mileage since last fill method. I keep my last fuel ticket on the dash in front of me as a reminder, with the mileage at fill-up written on the face of it, in a clip installed for that purpose. I have a 750 mi. range but always plan my next stop within the hour once I get 500 on it. On my maiden test run after I completed my conversion, I backed up a steep incline on a 1/4 tank (according to the guage, which I since replaced) and there went the prime; I vowed never again if I can prevent it. I also carry a manual pump and 2 6gal. empty water jugs. New bus has a 1200 mi. range, so I guess I can change my habits when I start using it | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.50) Rating: N/A |
Y'know, way back when, I'd heard about the fuel gauge issue in busses, and it seemed reasonable to assume that the idea was to keep the bus topped off... It seems to me in the case of a fuel leak... a holed tank, a cracked line, with a gauge you'd at least have an indication of a problem as it is occuring, rather than when the coach runs out of fuel short of its destination. Quarter of a tank would be the lowest I'd let my 179 gallon supply get, Ummm, make that a HALF tank for the moment, in my case. Brian | ||
| Abajaba (12.217.194.92)
Rating: N/A |
The policy we have with the company I drive for is to fill at 500 miles +/- a little bit. And when we park at the garage at the end of a trip the tank is to be filled. The new coaches have bigger tanks and better mileage than the old coaches that were traded in but the rule is still 500 miles. With our new setups we could possibly do 1100 or more miles. And the other unwritten policy is to fill it to the top if the nozzle is put in the tank. We had one driver that was going to save the company some money and put in just enough to get home. He forgot to factor in city driving and waiting for passengers with the engine running and airconditioning running. He was part way home when she hiccuped and sputtered and coughed and that was it. The company now states in no uncertain terms in the drivers manual that if the bus runs out of fuel the cost of re-starting comes out of the drivers pocket. Some of our older coaches have gauges that don't work as the contact point on the sender has worn out and they don't start to indicate until the fuel level is lower in the tank. This can be interesting when you have a few people on. Ask if everyone can pitch in some money for fuel so that you can get home. Then tell them how big the tank is. :-) Al Butler ka0ies | ||
| FAST FRED (65.154.177.119) Rating: N/A |
"With our new setups we could possibly do 1100 or more miles". Our technique is to use the hub meter and plan on 1000 mile fills . The 135 gal tank HAS been refilled with 125 gal at one time , but thats as close as we have come to pushing. No matter how convient the fuel stop it still seems to take 20 min from engine off to on again. With normal cruse at 70 (4106),I wonder how quiclky the fellows with oversize defuller injectors can refule so often and still make any time ? FAST FRED | ||
| mel4104 (208.181.100.42)
Rating: N/A |
this is what is use to prime ANY deisel engine/get a fitting from your local tire shop that has a 1/4 pipe thread on one end and a valve on the other end , take out the spare plug from the top of your primary filter and put this into that hole, now get a hose of a tire pump[bike-car], and a 1/2 qt. oil squirt oil can , cut the end off the nooel so you can slip the end of the house over the end and clamp on tight, fill the can with deisel and attach the hose to the fitting on top of oil filter and pump the fuel into the filter, besure that you do not run the can out of fuel, refill the can 4-6 times and have someone try and start the engine as you keep pumping on the squirt can. when the engine starts just remove the hose off the filter but leave the tire fitting in place , just put a metat valve cap on it and you are set up if it ever happens again.........mel 4104 | ||
| pete (64.12.96.105)
Rating: N/A |
perfect for this thread.. anyone know where i can get a positive ground sending unit and fuel guage for a 56-4501 scenicruiser? im glad im not the only one who admits i ran the rig out of fuel....the cops and i got a big laugh out of it until we backed up traffic in a construction zone in beautiful downtowm king of prissia pa for an hour and a half..thank god i know a guy who has a big wrecker and i was close to home | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.154.177.207)
Rating: N/A |
Positive or negative ground may not be an issue with a fuel gauge. I would go with a capacitive sending unit which you can cut to fit your tank and calibrate in a PVC pipe full of fuel before installation. A Capacitive sender does not have a complicated mechanism to snake into the tank. Try these folks for a gauge. Westberg Mfg., Inc. 3400 Wetach Way Sonoma, CA 95476-9526 Phone: 707-938-2121 800-400-7024 Fax: 707-938-4968 | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230) Rating: N/A |
Hi Luke at US Coach, I normally agree with your posts, but your post in this thread has a statement that I respectfully disagree with. It is:"...and also, at the bottom of each fuel tank are a bunch of "grungies" that you don't want going back to the fuel filters." If the "grungies" are there, how can it make a difference if the fuel tank is full or nearly empty? The fuel is being pulled from near the bottom of the tank all the time so it seems to me the "grungies" would be picked up in either case. I have heard statements similar to yours before and when I ask for an explanation, no one has had one. Since you have far more experience than I will ever have, I'll bet you can come up with one. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja) (67.115.10.103)
Rating: N/A |
Sam: grungies get sloshed around and get "airborne" when you have a low tank... ask any offshore boater | ||
| Johnny (63.159.152.175) Rating: N/A |
Uhh...so the crap in the tank will get sucked in. Isn't that what the fuel filter is for? | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (12.75.169.80)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Johnny: Am I the only one HERE that gets to the point that some of these threads become silly????? Yes Johnny, the fuel filters will and do on a daily basis collect a certain amount of grungies!!!! And that is why they should be changed everytime the coach is serviced!!!! Did you ever try to get 10 pounds of sugar into a 5 pound container??? What happens???? And that is the way fuel filters work, they will only take so many grungies, they clog up, and then the coach stops, even though the fuel tank may now be FULL!!!! If you are inclined to tempt the fates of the Gods!!! and run your fuel tank to the bottom then have a Ball!! But in my opinion, why don't we leave the Board space open for folks with "Real" problems that need the GREAT!! answers that so many contributors HERE can & will give!!!! Just my take on this "Beat to Death" topic. Happy & Safe Bussin' to ALL!!!! LUKE at US COACH | ||
| FAST FRED (63.234.22.76) Rating: N/A |
The boating folks have a 5gal vacume pump , normally used to suck out old engine & tranny oil, as many boat engines have inacessable drain plugs.(About $45.) One of these with a copper tube can be used to vacume the grunge out from the bottom & with a little bending , all the corners of the coach fuel tank. Of course the drain plug does the same job , but perhaps messier. Brought one to Jacks NY party last year , but no one was interested in borrowing it. Worked for me! FAST FRED | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.36)
Rating: N/A |
Sam, you can make your own experiment to explain it. Just take a glass of water, put in some sand and notice it goes right to the bottom. As long as the glass is full, suck with a straw near the bottom of the glass while sloshing the glass around. You get no sand in your mouth. Now pour out most of the water, imitating an almost empty tank, and slosh around again while sucking on the straw. That crunching sound between your teeth is sand! See what happens in the tank? It don't take much crap to plug a filter. | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.217.254) Rating: N/A |
also keeps ya' regular..... | ||
| pete (152.163.252.163)
Rating: N/A |
so im thinnin my sending unit - fuel gauage question is beyond help? ok..just promise me this..when you see a silver and red scenicruiser on the side of the road and me with a bottle of killians in my hand...stop in for a drink and tell me how beat to death this thread was..lol | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.36)
Rating: N/A |
Well, it may just be a record, we got from running out of fuel to sucking sand thru a straw pretty quick I would say. Sometimes it takes us a week or so to stray THAT far. | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230) Rating: N/A |
Hi Don, Thanks for the explanation, I guess I didn't know what "grungies" are. My thought was based on the premise that 80 percent of the fuel pumped is returned to the tank (I think I read that somewhere) so if you start with a full tank, go 60 MPH and get 6 miles per gallon, in one hour you will have pumped 50 gallons through your filters, burned ten, and returned 40 gallons to the tank. After 10 hours you would have pumped 500 gallons through the filters, burned 100 gallons, and returned 400 gallons to the tank. You would then still have about a third of a tank of well filtered fuel left, so I felt that as the tank got lower the fuel would be better than when the tank was first filled. But, since I didn't know what "grungies" are my thinking is flawed. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN PS, No matter how long or distracted a thread gets, there can still be learning going on. There is a cure for ignorance, it's called education. For stupidity (refusal to learn), there is no cure. | ||
| BrianMCI96 (198.81.26.38)
Rating: N/A |
Pete, I thought it was mentioned before, but I believe if you experiment with a negative ground sender and gauge you probably will find that it works quite well in a positive ground application, the sender works by reading the difference in resistance to ground as the float raises and lowers, don't believe it cares which direction the current takes to ground, just needs to be wired right, BUT thats an educated guess... Brian | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.216.97) Rating: N/A |
go to that "E" place & type in 'sending unit'....133 to choose from | ||
| Jerry (64.12.96.105)
Rating: N/A |
My '06's fuel guage didn't work from the start so I started the dip stick habit early. I used a 3/8" black rubber fuel line hose (easy to see the level on the black and since it is fuel line rubber wouldn't deterioriate so fast) stuck a bold in the end to hear when it hit bottom, filled the tank completly full (with a level bus) to determine the "full" mark -- devided the remaining distance by 4 and used a dremmel tool to engrave 4 "major" rings in the hose to indicate 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 then divided each of those 4 sections with small marks. I taped a chart on the inside of my fuel door to equate what each mark means in gallons and I have RV levels to be sure I'm close to it if a real accurate measurement is needed. Has worked great -- HOWEVER -- ONE IMPORTANT NOTE.... over the years I've done this I'd occaisionally get a full reading even though I knew I couldn't be. Could the fuel still be sloshing around that much? Did the fuel fairy fill me up on the house without my knowledge? Well, I should have known the answer before I actually looked at it -- these full marks occured on quick stops so quick I'd still have the engine running -- and where is the fuel line return fitting located?? yep right over the full fill tube where my dip stick was going by -- well, I thought it was funny. | ||
| pete (152.163.252.163)
Rating: N/A |
Yo Dawg....problem with the " E " place is that a bus tank is 28 to 34 inches deep..you just cant throw on in..thanks for the idea tho.....ill look into the regular sending unit for a bus..maybe an 60's or 70's GMC Hey Luke..you out there? any ideas? pete | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.216.97) Rating: N/A |
YO PETE...JUST NEED A LONGER ROD | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.216.97) Rating: N/A |
it's just a piece of heavy wire 1/8" ....the one the float hangs on.. | ||
| madbrit (65.73.229.236) Rating: N/A |
I used a piece of telephone company cable burial conduit. Nice semi-gloss black, half inch in diameter and shows exactly where the level is. My piece still had a slight curve from where it was on the cable drum and so goes into the tank real easy. Stored it by the side of the tank just inside the access door. This was done in my MC-8. Now I have twin linked 130 gallon tanks with a fuel gauge, ain't I spoilt....... LOL. Peter. | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.216.185) Rating: N/A |
go over to your rod box & get a 1/8 welding rod,place it gently on the sidewalk & get a small hammer & tap the flux off,cut the hanger rod in the middle,braze the welding rod in the middle(1" overlap)....bend rod where it 'hangs' about 2" off floor of tank | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
I'm trying to figure out how you can have a Reverse-Polarity Rheostat. You can buy Stewart-Warner sender kits, new in the box for, I think, around $50. As I recall they can come with a LONG arm that you can trim to length. | ||
| realbusowner (68.35.160.19) Rating: N/A |
Drill 1/4 inch holes in your fuel tank one inch apart on a line perpendicular to the tank bottom starting one inch from the bottom. Fill your tank and watch as the fuel leaks out of the holes. When the bottom hole stops leaking you know you have one inch of fuel remaining in the tank. Then return to this web site and learn something else to do to your bus. If you are quick you can fill the tank up again and braze the hole shut befor the holes stop leaking. You then will be considered an "good old bus boy" by all the readers of this thread | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.218.60) Rating: N/A |
..................WHY....................... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
Ah....realbusowner has struck again. Who was that masked man? | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.50) Rating: N/A |
"I'm trying to figure out how you can have a Reverse-Polarity Rheostat" Gary, keep thinking on it buddy, I'm sure you'll figure it out! (grin) Brian | ||
| Ace (24.28.41.194) Rating: N/A |
REALBUSOWNER is better known as: BOBM according to the pc address | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.210.149)
Rating: N/A |
realbusowner, What type of drill bit? Do I have to worry about sparks from my half inch hammer drill, or do I need to use the cordless? What type of clear plastic could I put in the holes for a sightglass effect? Are there any intank light bulbs available to assist with the sightglass idea? Thank you for this inspiration! :-) happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| realbusowner (64.165.9.37) Rating: N/A |
lectric drill is dangerous, use brace and 3/4 inch wood bit can't find light bulbs so I am going to use coleman lantern youre wolecome | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.135.51)
Rating: N/A |
I'm thinkin' a cutting torch is the right tool for this job. Gary | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.50) Rating: N/A |
Plasma cutter... or maybe an arc torch... Brian |
