| Author |
Message |
bruceknee (12.76.100.115)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 8:10 am: | |
I saw a ceramic paint ad somewhere, has anyone used it? Does it do insulate and reflect heat like the ads say that it does? Thanks
Bruce |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 8:13 am: | |
I have used it several times on buses, it is a very worthwhile sun heat reflector, forget about the "insulation" value. |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (216.67.216.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 4:29 am: | |
Just buy a good quality elastomeric roof paint.
The supposed R-value of a few scattered silica balls can be hardly measurable. Whereas the reflective quality of any really white roof paint will work at keeping a whole bunch of heat out of the interior of your conversion.
Those little balls will also hold the dirt. Some have applied a clear coat over it, but it is more work for little or no benefit.
Peter. |
FAST FRED (65.154.177.53)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 5:19 am: | |
Other folks may have had more luck with cerramic coatings than I have.
They indeed might insulate , but with an R7 per inch , the thickness of a business card isn't much insulation.
What does count is how WHITE the color is , as that does the heat reflecting.
The ceramic leaves a finish like #200 sandpaper, that is a dirt magnet.
The resulting color is less than less than White on White , so it gets warm inside in the summer sunshine .
Toplac (International) is highest rated marine paint ,
Consumer Reports (Aug 03) rated M.R.Bruder as top pick of acrylic house paints, 9 years.
The Southern house trailers and leaky teakys swear by the rubber goo stuff , but I find it chalks , and leaves streaks of old dead paint down the sides.Found at Home Depot ect.
FAST FRED |
Jack Perry (Jpwinks) (166.153.127.95)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 5:46 am: | |
What FF speaks is the gospel.
10 years ago I was Factory Deal for the "ceramic coating", I decided to use it on EVERYTHING I could find...Buildings, roofs, school bus roofs, and MORE. It is as tenacious as a pit bull, durable as a tank and will adhere to almost anything, and achieve/pass almost every claim/standard/test on the label.
BUT...in MHO (after thousands of gallons used) I can say that because of the surface texture of the finished product it would be unsatisfactory and would NOT pass as the BEST solution. It will hold dirt and airborne pollution quickly which in turn will exponentially reduce the light reflectivity, which in turn will exponentially increase the heat gain.
There are several excellent paint/coatings in the marine and home industries that are less expensive and will do a much better job of reflecting over a longer period of time without maintenance.
I am doing a science experiment with a good quality (less than >$20 per gallon), commercial, exterior high gloss, polar white, latex paint. So far it has passed my expectations, but it is too early to come to any conclusions.
jpwinks
1983MCI m9 |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 9:03 am: | |
Watch it Jack, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker spoke the gospel too, think he is still in jail. We all know FF never furnishes references for his opinions, this is no exception.
I would strongly suggest to others to test it themselves, who knows, if the right brand applied correctly with the clear coating that allows dirt to stick the very same as the rest of the bus, your experiences might be the same as all the university tests, individual tests, and government tests. Also, I can't find the prices, but I feel these 65foot luxury yachts that use it as a MARINE product are not just cheap get-by boats either, and Steve Marten seems to be a person that is smarter than the average bus converter, see the following quote:
"Marten Yachts has lead the world in ground breaking innovations and shared in the glory of the many Marten built yachts that have won international regattas. Steve Marten once a world dinghy racing champion and Olympic competitor, an America's Cup and Around the World race innovator and his race bred crew now build luxury performance cruisers that not only gain attention for their looks on the water but for their outstanding ability to scythe through it.
Hy-Tech Ceramics are being used in deck paints to reduce lower deck temperatures while providing a sound deadening, non-skid surface"
Anybody know what one of these boats costs? |
one eyed madbrit (216.67.216.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 9:15 am: | |
Don,
What are you saying? Firstly you say it's no good apart from the refective properties and now you are going against those who have said just that same thing.
Why on earth would anyone want to "Test it themselves" and waste their money, when others, including an ex-dealer, say it's not the right thing to use.
It's snake oil, how on earth can a few silica balls do anything to assist in the R-value? They are barely single thick over the roof.
Great for a "no skid" surface on a boat, but that's about all.
Fine if ye like to swab ye decks me hearties.
One eyed madbrit. |
ralph7 (208.155.122.135)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 9:57 am: | |
I redo my WINNIE roof with the white elastic stuff [kote] every other year, now it streaks in 2 yrs.an turns dirt collector as it dries. I am ready for swimmim pooool paint. But it,s a '79 an had NO maintance. What I read is white white. would like to get true epoxy white we used in USAF, but it's DEADLY! GM had a white that was much whiter than Ford,dad painted '56 T bird an it is white. |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
I guess I was not clear. I find the INSULATING value to be zero, the REFLECTIVE value to be extremely high.
In other words, on the outside, properly installed and of quality ceramic paint, there is a world of difference. I highly urge people to try it themselves and then judge. A mirror will reflect heat very well, but there is no insulation value there.
Many have been turned off from phony claims of R value, and have dismissed the reflective value also. If you plan to be in the sunlight on hot days, it is very effective. In the shade or even probably smog areas, maybe NO value. I had a bus with a white roof, stripped to the bare skin. Intentionally painted only part of it with ceramic beaded paint, many people came inside and felt the difference. They ALL have it on their buses now. Mine is over 6 years since application, no chalking, no dirty look, and I did not even use the clear protective coating! Still looks like the deck of a multimillion dollar Marten Yacht. I bet you HE tried it out too! |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.239.48.59)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 11:03 am: | |
Okay, I guess I have to take a divergent view here. I say paint the roof the same color as the bus and just properly insulate the ceiling. That is what I did and even though the roof gets hot the heat is not able to penetrate the insulation. I also think that ceramic coatings are a waste of time and money if used on the inside of the bus. If you are not going to add or replace the poor factory ceiling insulation then you should paint the roof white or use a light roof coating.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
pete (64.12.96.105)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 11:09 am: | |
the coating has no r value to it..no coating had an "r" value to it, they have reflective properties..they take and reflect the UV rays off the coach,winnie,steele building..whatever you put it on. I apply industrial roof coatings for a living..the last 12 years..
the only thing you have that has an "R" value to it is the sprayfoam or insulation on the inside of the bus.
anyone who tells you that a roof coating ceramic or not has insulative ability in fantisizing |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
Well said Geoff and Pete! |
FAST FRED (65.150.247.112)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 10:54 am: | |
"We all know FF never furnishes references for his opinions, this is no exception."
For what its worth , or in this case NOT WORTH,
the failed product is called INSULADD (close sp.)
Why someone would desire this info to be posted is beyond me , but here it is.
FAST FRED |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:57 am: | |
Good Reference, see it below! Thanks Fred, I had plumb forgotten that the Military as well as mariners had tested it and were as amazed as I and many others are. It has been said that mixing it yourself just don't work very good, impossible to get it evenly distributed. I never tried to mix it myself though. http://www.insuladd.com/military.html |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.35)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 11:59 am: | |
Good Reference, see it below! Thanks Fred, I had plumb forgotten that the Military as well as mariners had tested it and were as amazed as I and many others are. It has been said that mixing it yourself just don't work very good, impossible to get it evenly distributed. I never tried to mix it myself though. http://www.insuladd.com/military.html |
FAST FRED (63.234.22.42)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 5:19 am: | |
Be very way of the references , in some cases there comparing a cerramic painted roof with a tar paper roof.
Some comparison!
White paint VS Black tar.
FAST FRED |
Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.230)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 8:18 am: | |
Hi Fred,
"White paint VS Black tar." Is that similar to comparing a boat to a bus conversion?
Thanks, Sam Sperbeck
La Crescent, MN |
pete (205.188.209.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 2:30 pm: | |
god fred...we are so misunderstood... |
FAST FRED (63.234.20.132)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 6:06 am: | |
White paint VS Black tar." Is that similar to comparing a boat to a bus conversion?
Depends , The coaches that just sit rotting in a yard ARE similar to the boats that never leave the dock, and suffere the same maladies.
Usually system failures or fuel growing bugs , and he tank getting full of crap.
The folks that actually go camping MAY have somthing in common with the boaters.
The PP (Power Pole to Power Pole) folks use similar house hold items like fridges , freezers and ice makers ,electric fry pans, toasters .
The Boondockers are more like the sailboat folk, that want NEVER to hear the stinking engine (or genset), yet want a good (cold beer frozen food) lifestyle.
I would say that both groups have a lot in common , if kept with their operational peers.
Boaters have fAR more hassles ,
such as the difference between US 240V (3 wire)and European (2 wire) 210V.
Mostly solved with a universal charger and big batts , big inverter and DC gen set.
FAST FRED |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.37)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:34 am: | |
And even more alike Fred, back to the original topic, world famous super class Yacht builders like Steven Marten and coach converters BOTH use ceramic bead paint on the surfaces that the sun hits.
My friend just went from Charleston SC to tip of florida and back in his sailboat, NEVER once turned off the diesel genset. I don't know beans about sail boats, but somebody isn't telling it right. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.135.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:38 am: | |
Don,
"Rag Wagons" go to extrordinary lengths to not run the genset.
I run in both crowds, but my wind-powered friends are quite snooty about it.
Gary |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.37)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 9:23 am: | |
Well, that is what I assumed too, but when I asked him, he seemed to imply that you got to get out into the big pond to play with the sails, a trip down the coast is not OK for sails, and when stopped, he felt he needed a genset for AC and stuff. I will never understand boat guys I guess. |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.50)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:04 am: | |
I know squat about sailing, but it seems to me a trip down the coast with sails is what sailors have been doing for like, THOUSANDS of years.
Brian |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.135.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:16 am: | |
If I ever check out of civilization (A distinct possiblilty) I may do it in a sailboat. once they are rigged and provisioned, there's not much cost to keeping them going.
My 30-ton beast with TWO 8V71s on the other hand costs a fortune to operate.
Gary |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.17)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:33 am: | |
I guess as it is explained to me, IF you want to go to Hawaii, you get to use the sails. If in proximity to land, the motor is the only way, seems the wind might blow you onto the coast or something you don't want to hit. Just ruined my fantasy of sailing around to save money. If you shop the sailboats, you will notice they make a lot of fuss over the propulsion engine. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.135.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:45 am: | |
Sailing around the world should not be a diminshed fantasy, it's still as inexpensive as it should be, however, Cruisers do place a lot of importance on their engine, it gets you in and out of places.
There are some new lines (Hunter comes to mind) that are motorboats with sails on them. We were once sailing and I heard the roar of a BB chevy motor. I was amazed to see a "Sailboat" roar off with it's sails furled. Just plain weird.
A great many cruise along the coast, but in bad weather, the saying is: "When in doubt, go out".
Gary |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 1:21 pm: | |
'Boaters have fAR more hassles ,
such as the difference between US 240V (3 wire)and European (2 wire) 210V.'
http://www.shorpower.com/
A little bit more information on the difference between European and American voltages, which as FF says, can create numerous problems for any one in the boating business.
The standard European voltage is 50 hertz, three phase, 380/220 volts, four wire, wye. 380 volts from phase to phase and 220 volts from phase to neutral/ground. In a few countries it is 416/240 volts. There is no low voltage, 120 volts as is common in this country.
This difference opened up a whole new market for my company several years ago when the large mega or super yachts began proliferating. The European manufactured boats had problems operating in US waters and US manufactured yachts had problems at the marinas in Europe and most other countries where the standard power was 50 hertz.
The link shows some of the equipment we designed, manufactured and distributed to the international yachting market place. Arguably some of the most sophisticated electrical equipment ever designed for the marine market place, and at the time, absolutely nothing else that could compete with it.
Richard |
FAST FRED (65.154.177.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 5:52 am: | |
"builders like Steven Marten and coach converters BOTH use ceramic bead paint on the surfaces that the sun hits."
Perhaps they do but they would have far fewer hassles than a coach owner as the crew washes the decks a couple of times a day.
Scrubbing dirt off the roof is bit more work than I want to do daily on a coach.
Sailboats cruise down the East coast in what is known as the ICW , Inter Coastal Waterway.
The numerous turns and bridges make sailing very difficult.
Hard to sail back & forth waiting for a bridge to open at a specific time.
Sailing in unrestricted waters is great fun , and in many cases the sailboats will be at a higher relative speed.
Due to the bow wave making action of foward progress most boats travel at "hull speed".
Hull speed is 1.34 times the square root of the waterline legnth. The bigger the boat the farther apart the bow & stern waves, At 1.34 most boats do not have the power to plane , so effectivly thats top speed. (Double the power for an extra knot)
so a 25 ft boat would easily go 5 (sq root ) and might go 6+ or so (sq root X 1.34)
Our 50 ft has almost a 49 ft waterline , so goes 7 really easy , and 9+ IF you wish.
At 8 (a fairly easy push) we burn just under 4 Gal per hour, but she is light enough to push to 10 , alas at 12 gal per hour.
Since the wind is FREE , and every sailor attempts for top speed , sailboats frequently will be going at 1.34 , where the power boat guys wont pay extra to go a bunch faster than 1.1.
I have sailed from NY to the Carib a number of times , using only 2 hours of engine operation (belted mechanical Eutetic plate freezer) every 3rd day.Also 2 alts charged the batts while the freezer did its thing.
Worked for Me ,Although the current boat is just to visit the canals , Erie , Trent Severne (Canada ) ect, and has no offshore crossing capabilitys.
( only 200 gal fuel doesn't go far).
FAST FRED |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 7:56 am: | |
Interesting, I did not know that, I guess I assumed that if you had a 40 mph wind you could cruise about that fast. I still think sailing on open waters is the last real freedom and adventure we have left.
I WILL tell Steve Marten to cancel my order for the 65 footer of my dreams though, damned if I am going to wash down the decks several times a day, not at my age. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:51 am: | |
Actually, "Downwind" sailing is the least powerful way to sail. As you pick up speed in the boat, the "Apparent" wind is reduced. It is the safest and most peaceful way to sail, but not the most fun, nor the fastest.
Your maximim speed is dictated by your hull configuration, sail area and sail configuration.
Sails are not really windbags (Those are called skippers) but airfoils. the best sailing is running at a diagonal to the wind.
You can actuually go faster than the wind.
Gary |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 3:23 pm: | |
What Fast Fred was pointing out about speed being related to the length of the waterline has some effect in motorhomes, too.
This is why some people with small (18 foot) ones that drive 70 only get 5-7 mpg, and only weigh less than 5 tons.
At 35 feet, 13 tons and 70 mph, we are getting nearly twice the mpg. It's not all because the diesel is that much more efficient than the gas engine. The wind resisteance on those short rigs is terrible.
I think that this is why towing toads does not bring down the mileage worse than it does. The tow effectively lengthens the rig, offsetting some of the rolling resistance and weight penalties.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
FAST FRED (65.154.176.244)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
Mostly I think we get better milage cause a gallon of Diesel fuel weighs more than the same amount of gasolene.Weight is energy.
And because our engines were optomised to the coach , rather than a car or light truck engine working its self silly.
FAST FRED |
mark (66.43.13.44)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 12:07 am: | |
weight is energy? !!... Great! Fill your bays with stones, concrete rubble, etc!
Seriously Fred, that seems like a far fetched statement to me. And how much more does a gallon of diesel weigh than a gallon of gasolene?
Makes no sense to me!
I thought the difference was more related to the higher torque rating and the gearing of buses.
I'm no engineer, but I have a friend that knows a guy that has a brother -in -law who IS an engineer!
Just my $.01
mark
gillig636D |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (66.229.97.200)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 12:47 am: | |
Mark -
Gasoline = 6.17 lbs/gallon, 124,000 Btu/gallon
#2 Diesel = 7.05 lbs/gallon & 140,000 Btu/gallon
So Fred's comment was accurate - we all know that a 3/4 ton pickup with a diesel gets better fuel mileage than the same truck w/ a gas engine.
Here's an interesting site link that you might like to take a look at:
http://www.rxp.com/DieselFuel.htm
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 8:08 am: | |
The gospel according to Fred then says we are really being silly for not fueling up with water! Somehow it seems to me that BTU's count more than weight. |
H3JIm (68.105.98.247)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
I believe Fred is correct (even without a source). It not that weight alone provides power, it's that diesel is a denser fuel than gasoline and contains more BTUs per gallon - per the previous post. The weight is a reflection of diesel's greater density. |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 10:03 pm: | |
Hmmm. Hydrogen seems to pack a pretty big bang for the buck and it has a negative weight. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.135.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 10:44 pm: | |
Haha.
So is it BTU per weight unit? or BTU per Mass unit?
Gary |
mark (66.43.13.91)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 11:33 pm: | |
thanks, RJ
I guess I was on the wrong track regarding "weight equals energy."
No offense, FastFred, okay!?
thanks for the 'edjamacation'
mark
75gillig636D |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.17)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 7:32 am: | |
Well I am old and need an explanation, clue me in Mark. It seems to me that BTU's are energy, and weight has nothing to do with the amount of energy in a gallon of something. What am I missing here?
If the statement read "the reason we get more miles per gallon of diesel is the diesel contains more BTU or more energy", I could buy it. |