| Author |
Message |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (69.3.75.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:33 am: | |
YAKQ - (YetAnotherKindergartenQuestion)
Have been to four different stations for diesel in the last several weeks and haven't seen any options for Diesel #1 or #2. The only thing available has been just diesel. Three were 'consumer' stations, one was a truck stop. When I got the invoice from the truck stop, it said Diesel #2.
DaBook says use #1, but #2 acceptable. Is this an old designation or do I need to look harder for a source for #1?
And I'm nervous enough about this beast - I'm not about to try Canola Oil or somesuch for a long time! ;)
TIA as always,
Chuck
(8v71) |
TWO DOGS (66.90.214.101)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:45 am: | |
#2 so far as I know....#1 not available...guess you are talking about the DD engine...yep #2 |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:16 am: | |
I think that in the northern areas of the country, #1 diesel fuel may be available during winter months. I personally have never seen it for sale. I understand it does better regarding jelling and other cold weather problems with #2.
Richard |
TWO DOGS (66.90.214.101)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 11:30 am: | |
When I was driveing bigtrucks...always had POWER SERVICE in the tank if I was up north in the winter....it's also nice to have a gallon of it handy if your fuel filters plug up in the middle of nowhere....just unscew the filter & fill it up with power service....fire that baby back up....in a white gallon jug at all truck stops |
Abajaba (12.217.194.92)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 12:24 pm: | |
#1 is more highly refined than #2.
#1 has lower energy density than #2.
Truck drivers prefer #2 when they can get it as it gives better power out of the noise maker than #1 does.
The exception is when it gets cold.
#2 will gel up sooner than #1 and so what some of the fuel companies do during the winter in northern climates is to blend #1 and #2 to lower the temperature that the fuel in the tank will gel at.
I don't know what type of percentages they run for the blend but I have heard that some of the big companies don't blend until late in the season.
Al
ka0ies
remove any 'x' from email address |
Craig S (65.202.123.254)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 3:04 pm: | |
Up in ME in the winter, we used to mix kero with the diesel to lower the gel temp. Ran this stuff in backhoes, bulldozers and such.
Craig S |
Clifford Neal (65.174.115.118)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 5:38 pm: | |
At what temperatures will diesel fuel begin to jell up? I have been in some cold areas but never had that to happen so far as I know. What would you do if it did happen? Is there a way to warm up the fuel that one should know about?
Clifford N |
TWO DOGS (66.90.213.86)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 6:19 pm: | |
if it's really going to be cold where you are going,and you are not sure,put Power Service in the tank...it will keep it from geling |
john w. roan (Chessie4905) (69.162.16.88)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:07 pm: | |
Up here in the winter...Penna, they put an additive into the fuel to resist jelling( which is the parrafin {wax}that is naturally in diesel fuel). The parrifin starts solidifying in the fuel as the temp drops through the lower thirties. The fuel will start to get slightly cloudy at first,more so as the temp keeps dropping. This wax or gelling will plug the filters. As the temps rise back thru the 20's and 30's, this wax melts or liquifies back into the fuel. The amount of additive they use is calculated for the average anticipated low temperature. once in a while we get a snap overnight low temp of maybe 10 to 20 below zero. Many diesels will end up having plugged filters and be setting along the roads, because of insufficient additive. Hasn't happened for about ten years now, as the winter temps are milder than they used to be. Around here #1 is kerosene but doesn't have highway taxes on it and usually has dye in it. I don't know if this is totally like the #1 in the DDA specs.You can see this phenomenon by putting some fuel in a jar and putting it in your freezer overnight. |
TWO DOGS (66.90.218.183)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:44 pm: | |
number 1 diesel is closer to jet fuel...and jet fuel is just a highly refined keroseen.....lots of times tho...i'd wind up in minn. with fuel I bought in LA. (NOT BLENDED) |
Jayjay (152.163.252.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 9:47 pm: | |
Hey two dogs, as a pilot and aircraft mechanic, allow me to guarantee you that #1 diesel is not even close to Jet-A. (thats why Jet-A is $2.65 a gallon) The only place you will find #1 diesel (kerosene) for sale is in the very northern most tier of states, and in the Rockies...from mid-November until mid-March. Look for specially marked pumps at most major truck stops. Don't use it unless you plan on operations at and below 10/15 deg. F.
Cheers...JJ |
Jayjay (152.163.252.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:17 pm: | |
Addendum: Those of us running older engines with mechanical injectors, needs to remember to use an additive that replaces the lack of lubricating ability of the "new" diesel fuel. The new EPA fuel standards removed a goodly portion of the natural lubricating quality of the old fuel.( I assume something similar to the "oxygenated" gasoline sold during part of the year. A truckers magazine picked up recently at a Flying J, discussed the pitfalls associated with the new fuel . NO, I don't currently have the article, so if anyone has some solid info for us, please speak up. Howe's Diesel Supplement advertises that their product corrects the problem. Any others out there?
...JJ |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 2:33 am: | |
What I recall about these fuels is that pour point of 2D may be as high as a few degrees above zero, 1D has a pour point down to around -40 and jet fuel, which we used to work on the Trans-Alaska pipeline, has a pour point down to -75 or so.
I have seen a northbound semi from the US in BC when the temperature was down to some thing like -40 that was stopped in the two lane highway. The highway crew had built a tent around most of the rig and had one of the biggest bottles of gas setting beside it feeding a burner that was trying to warm it up enough to get it going again.
I asked about it down the road and I was told that it happened every now and then that a trucker would come north with warm country fuel aboard and go down in the middle of the road. However, if they bought fuel in BC, they wouldn't have that trouble.
I checked kerosene at one time and the grade I checked on showed higher viscosity at zero degrees than 2D. I didn't realize then that there were two grades of kerosene, 1K and 2K. They are not the same as any diesel, which you can see by looking at and pouring the two fuels.
We use blended diesels in both for engines and heating here in Ketchikan because straight 2D gives too many problems as its temperature drops to near zero. 1D gives poorer lubrication and less heat, so it should not be used in engines when very warm.
Normally, pot burners use 1D because it vaporizes more easily, but 2D can be used in marine pot burners with a turbo vaporizer. It's real hard to get going, but works fine otherwise.
We just went through getting our boat stove going yesterday when it was about freezing, and it was a pain. After a couple of hours, it was no problem.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
FAST FRED (65.154.177.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 5:15 am: | |
I have always found the #1 at car gas stations , for the VW , Mercedes & Volvo bunch.
#2 is found at the truck stop , and if its not a first early cold snap (catches them with old stock) the local diesel supplier will have added the anti gell to thre diesel.
Howes or any other brand may give extra insurance if your driving from a warm place (like Florida which would not have the anti gell) to Canada .
Enroute North would not be a problem as our DD take 40 to 60 gph from the tank and return most of it nice & warm. But it would be a good idea to fuel on arriving at the cold place , and drive a bit to be sure the new cold fuel is in the engine.
Anti gell changes the pour point cold, but old fuel can still grow bugs.
FAST FRED |
TWO DOGS (66.90.217.88)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 10:45 am: | |
Jayjay....I'm a licenced pilot.....but...so far,nobody seems to get the point I been making...keep a gallon of power service with you...'if' you have a pluged up fuel filter,or, if you get into cold, with questionable(unblended) fuel... that 14.00 will never be missed..and..if you don't use it..it's still good next winter.. |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.165.74)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 12:20 pm: | |
DosDogs, I got it! A gallon of Power Service. Many thanks.
Regarding the fuel distinction, since I can't find #1 down here in TX, I'm not gonna worry about it and focus on the other things keeping me up at night.
Thanks again, folks!
-Chuck |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
A little history lesson on the DD engines many of us have in former transit agency owned buses.
My former NJT coach has a 6V92T engine in to as did most of the fleet at NJ TRANSIT. (I worked there at the time). All of the coaches there were fueled with #1D all 12 months of the year. The reason was to reduce particulate from the exhaust stack which is stronger with #2D. This was under old Clean Air standards for cities.
Now for the difference - #1 Kerosine (#1K) is the same stuff EXACTLY as #1D, except for the dye. (If I recall correctly) the non road dye is red and the on-road (taxed) stuff is green. You cannot legally use untaxed fuel in a road coach. Get caught and you will not like the consequences. If you want to play the game - knock yourself out.
On my former NJ TRANSIT MC9, there is a sign that says #1 Diesel is the selected fuel and that #2D is OK as a second choice. I don't see any place around here for #1, so I burn #2 all the time. When #1D was delivered at NJT locations, a sample was often taken to make sure the color was right. Every so often, it went out to a lab for further analysis for cetaine factor, etc. They were a big user of the stuff. A normal year for just the buses was 12 Million gallons. The trains used a lot more, but that was #3D. Considering that they used 3 to 4 GPH at idle (and they would idle all night long) that is a lot of fuel just sitting. They got thursty when pulling a train.
Soooo - as for impacts like lubrication or affecting service life - I don't know. That is just what they did.
Doug
St Louis MC9 |
FAST FRED (65.154.176.244)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 3:29 pm: | |
Kerosene is #1 diesel with the lube part of the oil removed.
An old boating trick was to add a quart of motor oil to 5 gal the stoves fuel ,just to get home.
Probably poluted like heck , but far EZer than sailing into a slip.
I would happily use #1 diesel , although the lower milage would stink , but NEVER kerosene .
Jet A is refined kerosene that will not turn to thick goo at -50c.
There is no fuel heat in the wings of a flying bus , the fuel heat (if used ) is at the engine to make the fuel control happy.
FAST FRED |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 3:43 pm: | |
Doug, the bulk fuel plants here show diesel and kerosene as being two differnt fuels. There are a few heaters that are rated to use either, but I notice that the units that have wicks specify kerosene.
I was curious about the difference some time ago and I inquired about the price. Our bulk plants were charging less than $1 for the diesel but kerosene was $5 at the time.
Also, I got the information on viscosity from their MSDS sheets, so I believe that they are different fuels.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.209.101)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 11:01 pm: | |
Hello.
Transit in Toronto uses #1D in the fleet 12 months of the year. ~1700 buses worth.
As already mentioned, less smoke than #2D.
Also, a little more expensive than #2D. Along the lines of regular and super gasoline.
The guys on the Sunoco tanker truck that deliver it say the #1D is the same as home heating fuel, just without the dye.
So, there's some more input.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 12:20 pm: | |
Check this link out:
http://www.rxp.com/DieselFuel.htm
I think it illustrates that a lot better than I could argue.
I went into the Chevron web site and it says they are refined to different specs. When you look harder and dig up a spec sheet, you see that they overlap, and one is still the other by refining process.
As for price differences between #1K and #1D - it's all about what the market will bear. JP4 is more refined, but cheaper than Kero. Go figure. Av gas costs a lot more than diesel, and it is "old fashioned" by today's chemical standards (some even still has lead in it). Small (comparitive) quantities and special needs dictate higher prices.
Fred - I would be real worried about using a quart of oil in 5 gal of kero to run an engine - even in an emergency. I would be very worried about what that could do to an engine. Is the risk worth the benefit?
Doug |
TWO DOGS (66.90.210.3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 3:15 pm: | |
I wouldn't....that's about right... |
TWO DOGS (66.90.218.105)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 3:40 pm: | |
that alturnitive is lots better than getting caught in the gulfstream and winding up where people talk funny |
FAST FRED (63.233.189.114)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 5:00 pm: | |
Considering they sell"blenders " that dump old contaminated oil into clean fuel, ( why anyone would is beyond me) a small quantity of fresh clean oil does no harm.
I know many wrenches that love to use ATF to refill changed fuel filter housings , claim it good for the injectors.
Compared to sailing into a slip (done it, but its always a gamble, even with favorable conditions), I'll dump a quart into 5 gal K1 any day.
FAST FRED |
Johnny (63.159.213.99)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 6:24 pm: | |
The military runs diesel engines on jet fuel (I'd assume JP4). I know a diesel WILL run on straight K1 kerosene. |