| Author | Message | ||
| dougthebonifiedbusnut (24.62.99.43)
Rating: |
Was driving home today,thinkin about the wheels on the old crown.The left hand nuts are on the left side of the bus. If you are looking at the way the tire is rotating(going forward)it seemed to me that the reason for the left hand thread was to insure that if thenut were to become loose the opposite reaction of the nut to the rotation would keep the nut from coming completely off. If my hypothesis is correct than I would think the left hand thread would be on the right side.I have always thought the overall effect is neglegable anyway which is why you dont see left hand threads used in heavy trucking. | ||
| John Feld (Deacon) (204.184.224.30)
Rating: N/A |
Heavy truck do have left and right nuts. Your reasoning is correct, and it has saved many a wheel from comming completly off. john | ||
| Abajaba (12.217.194.92) Rating: N/A |
The left handed nuts are on the left side of the vehicle and the right handed ones are on the right side of the vehicle, of vehicles with stud piloted wheels. On hub piloted wheels the nuts are all right handed. From personal experience trying to take the lug nuts off the back of a bus on the left side, with stud piloted wheels, do not turn the wrench the wrong way even with an impact wrench. Things don't happen like they are supposed to. 8-/ Al Butler | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.213.91) Rating: N/A |
WELP...everybody jump on me ,but,I always heard that was an old wives tale...I know they did that on old cars...but the new ones are all r/h... | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
The left hand thread nuts have an L stamped on them, and I can assure you, from personal experience, that they will not go on the right hand studs. LOL Richard | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.212.95) Rating: N/A |
understand that...the NEED for L/H threads & bolts is what I was talking about...some say it does not make any difference.. | ||
| Ken Turner (205.188.209.8)
Rating: N/A |
A distillery In Vancouver BC decided that they would put together a Clydesdale six horse hitch pulling a large dray wagon to advertise with. They completely dis assembled the wagon to repair and paint.ETC On the maiden voyage while crossing the Pattello (sp) bridge which is a high, long, busy major hiway bridge two of the wheels came off ( the wagon loaded with wooden barrels weighed about 3 tons )And six disoriented clydes on the busy bridge. It turned out that the workmen had put one axle on the wrong way or baasakwards and the axle nuts came off. Horse drawn vehicles also have left n right axle nuts.... You guys didn't know this was bus related .Did ya ? | ||
| Tony (64.215.196.125) Rating: N/A |
How about that, I bet that Is why they put the lefthanded nuts on the left side of Buses, only I believe that It would be a little different than the wagon, I can see why the wagon would have lefthanded but cant see why the bus would | ||
| Ken Turner (205.188.209.8)
Rating: N/A |
AS the wheels turn, (going forward)the friction between the nuts and wheel.. if any..Has the tendency to tighten the nuts > PS. OOOPS I was thinking of AXLE nuts as opposed to LUG nuts, But I think the theory would apply to lug nuts too...... Viberation ? http://members.tripod.com/Pipesusmc/Image1.jpg I'M getting old /senile I think ! www.pipesusmc.net | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.218.105) Rating: N/A |
on one axel nut...that is the correct theory...on 6,8 or 10 lug bolts it DOES NOT MATTER....That's my opinion.. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
I have never understood it myself. Mopars had LH nuts until the early seventies, then just quit. The way I look at it, the lugs have the opposite effects of the spindle nut. Gary | ||
| Tony (64.215.196.125) Rating: N/A |
Thank you two dogs you are the first to share my feelings on this matter | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.127)
Rating: N/A |
I think that the reason that it matters on heavies is that stud piloted means that the weight of the vehicle is carried on the studs. If they were the least bit loose, they could walk off the studs as the weight started shifting from stud to stud. Hub piloted wheels carry the weight on the hubs, so even if the nuts were a bit loose, there would be little or no tendency to walk off of the studs. They are merely clamps. Just my two cents. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.135.51)
Rating: N/A |
I think that my bird has RH studs all around, I'll check when I get back to the shop on monday. It is stud piloted. Gary | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (69.34.171.174) Rating: N/A |
Gary, if you have stud piloted wheels I'd be surprized if you have RH studs on both sides. Two D it is not an old wives tail, We have trucks from the 70's right on up to factory fresh rigs waiting to be assigned that have LH thread studs. Brian | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (64.134.135.51)
Rating: N/A |
I'll check tomorrow. We're checking out of the hotel, heading for the DTW to fly back to Oakland this evening. Actually, I've only removed a wheel from the curb side so far. Gary | ||
| John Feld (Deacon) (150.199.209.45)
Rating: N/A |
I have a very hard time imagining that this conversation has submitted any cold hard facts to refute the engineering and testing done on vehicals to meet saftey standards of the manufacture or government. If your specifications for your coach calls for LH/RH studs & nuts, then whats the problem, use them. There is no problem locating the proper parts. This is a safty issue, not a parts issue, or what looks good to you. Consider this, you have a wheel failure, you or your wheel kill someone. Upon investigation it is determained that you had installed improper studs and nuts. Your insurance company may decline your claim, You have just killed someone, no difference than murder in this case as you had known of the proper parts to use. I have seen this happen. John 4104 | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.43)
Rating: N/A |
Not sure if that was the point John. I thought it was inquiring minds just wanting to know. Knowing just WHY some cars for instance, using the same wheels, use LH on the left on some, RH on the left on others. I am sure if it were a safety issue, we would all be driving with LH studs on the LH side. Do you have any references to indicate it is a "safety issue" or the result of "engineering"? It just COULD be that your insurance claim might be in trouble because you did NOT change from LH to RH. I am an inquiring mind and want to know. | ||
| John Feld (Deacon) (204.184.224.23)
Rating: N/A |
Don, inquiring minds will do their own research. Your questions would best be directed to the manufacture or National Transportation Saftey Board. I am not going to debate the issue, or attempt to prove what I spent 40+ years learning, nor care what 'cars' do. I stated my opinion, based on experience operating heavy equiptment on the highways all over this country in excess of three and a half million miles. In the course of driving those miles I have witnessed many people that 'thought' something would be safe, and seen the carnage of their mistakes. Make no mistake, buses are heavy equiptment and should be treated as such. In the case of the insurance claim problem, I'm happy to say it was not mine, but sad to say the 7 year old boy died in my arms. We can control every loose nut, except the one behind the wheel. John 4104 | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.22)
Rating: N/A |
I am lost here John. Some kid died because the nuts were screwed on backwards? | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
I do not think it is within the ream of possibility to put a right hand threaded nut on a left hand threaded stud. Richard | ||
| dougthebonifiedbusnut (24.62.99.43)
Rating: N/A |
Hey John, I think if you read my origanal post you will find that according to you Im not correct.I can tell you that I believe nothing and question everything.My feeling is that YOU question nothing and do everything just because.In my mind thats the differance between innovative people and passive people.By the way are you related to Ace by any chance. | ||
| John Feld (Deacon) (204.184.224.23)
Rating: N/A |
Esentially that is correct. It turned out that when the truck rearend was repaired the shop had installed new studs on the wrong sides, and an outside left wheel came off and went thru the windshield of an oncomming car. I was following that truck at the time, not a pretty sight. And no, it was determained that the reason was not failure to re-tighten the wheels after 50-100 miles of driving (which should always be done when wheels are re-mounted), the driver had done that, and admitted to the knowledge that the studes were inproperly installed and continued anyway. The owner-operator lost everything, the shop went bankrupt, and a family was devestated. I don't mean to sound argumentive to you, I just have no tolorance when it comes to saftey, or saying something that might give the impression thats its ok to do something that could have grave consiquinses. I have no doubt that you feel the same way, I'm just concerned that someone might take a look at some of the banter above and conclude that they could ignore sound saftey practices. If the factory used all RH studs than it was engineered that way, some are. If it uses both RH and LH then there is a reason for it. The highway is no place to experiment. John 4104 | ||
| John Feld (Deacon) (150.199.209.21)
Rating: N/A |
DML...I can find no mention in the above postings, mine or others, that mention putting a right hand threaded nut on a left hand threaded stud. Gary...I see no reason for you to begin to use derogatory inuendo towards me. You have every right to question anything you wish. Nor do I say that every time you defeat the given standard you will loose a wheel, but it only has to happen once at the wrong time and place. I'm sorry I even posted to this site, my mistake I guess, I will refrain from posting again. John 4104 | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (69.34.171.174) Rating: N/A |
John, c'mon, you have to have a little thicker skin than that... While I understood what you meant (I've seen studs installed on the wrong axle, thankfully caught before it left the shop), I don't think that type of thing is something the average guy would know about. Plus as a rule I've found busnuts have, what I might term, a "showme" attitude. Brian | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.38)
Rating: N/A |
DML was referring to my cryptic post, where I really meant of course that someone had installed STUDS AND nuts, threads opposite the direction originally manufactured. I see nothing to debate or argue about, all I wanted was some valid reference to the mystery of why things are the way they are. Do you have dates, locations, court case number or anything we could read about that case? | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.127)
Rating: N/A |
Packards and Buicks, I believe, used LH on the left side in the fifties. One used nuts, the other, bolts. I'm sure there were others. I took it to mean that they were better built. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.38)
Rating: N/A |
The little mopar stuff, Valiant Barracuda for instance used LH on left side. So much for that one Tom. As a senior citizen, it seems to me best I can recall, it WAS important, then slowly disappeared. Old wives tales die hard I guess. | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.38)
Rating: N/A |
The little mopar stuff, Valiant Barracuda for instance used LH on left side. So much for that one Tom. As a senior citizen, it seems to me best I can recall, it WAS important, then slowly disappeared. Old wives tales die hard I guess. | ||
| TWO DOGS (66.90.211.235) Rating: N/A |
The whole reason that practice started was because of wagons AND the center axel nut...anybody with any imagination can see why the axel nut might work off if the wheel is turning counterclockwise...the thing that scares me...all the college educated engineers for YEARS after that...thinking that the lugbolts on a , car,truck,heavy equipment would work off...ONLY ON A CENTER AXEL NUT....(think about it)... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
" Gary...I see no reason for you to begin to use derogatory inuendo towards me. " Say What? Me? What on earth could have been interpreted as derogatory inuendo? It's discouraging when the most innocent post starts a fleme war. You are right by the way, I do have RH and LH studs. I just haven't had to pull any wheels on that side and never noticed before. Gary | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.44)
Rating: N/A |
So Gary, just WHY do you have LH studs on the LH side, huh? | ||
| John Feld (Deacon) (150.199.209.38)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, My deepest apologies, I attributed this post to you: "Hey John, I think if you read my origanal post you will find that according to you Im not correct.I can tell you that I believe nothing and question everything.My feeling is that YOU question nothing and do everything just because.In my mind thats the differance between innovative people and passive people.By the way are you related to Ace by any chance." I must learn to control myself, again, my apologies to you, it was DougTheBonifiedNut that made the post. DML, You are correct in requesting verification, however, I do not have the time to go back almost 30 years to search out court records that I would need to go to Illinois to find. Freak accident, maybe, but one that could have been prevented. TD, Many manufactures use LH treaded bolts and nuts on rotational parts, rear-ends, transmissions, engines, etc. The practice is slowly fadding away, WHY, because its cheaper to produce only RH treads and use a common source. Manufatures factor in the occasional liability claim verses cost of production and reach an acceptable ratio. Does that mean that an improvent is made? Not really, thats why the GMC's last longer than the MCI's or others made today. Is fiberglass and plastic really better than steel and fabric, not really, but its cheaper to make. A LH tread on the left side may still come loose, but it is unlikely to come off, which in turn gives the driver more time to react to a loose wheel. ANY nut that is loose can cause damage to the wheel assembly, hub, rim, bearings, studs, and should be checked on a regular basis. Loose wheels and lost wheels are apples and oranges, both are bad but one is worst. Do RH treads on the left side pose a problem, not normally if properly instaled and inspected. Is there a better way, yes, use LH treaded studs and nuts. What I don't understand is why someone would want to defeat this, price?, the difference is minor if at all. Why not use the best? One of the first things I did was purchase new LH studs and nuts for when I re-build the drums. Old wives tale, no, declining quality! John | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.195)
Rating: N/A |
Okay, you have LH studs on the left side because the nuts are LH, and the nuts are LH because the studs are LH. So there. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
Hey John, No sweat, honest mistake. I first learned about LH threads, at about 7, I think, changing pedals on my bicycle. That made sense to me, the friction of the bearings would tend to unscrew the pedal spindle from the crankarm. I later learned that the Crank Bearing races are also LH thread, but never understood why having a race have a tendancy to tighten itself is more desirable than having it loosen itself. I'm trying to imagine how LH helps in Lugnuts-- I still can't picture it. Gary | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.15)
Rating: N/A |
Here is an opinion I gathered on the internet while searching, inserted for your perusal: "I've been reading other's opinions on this subject for a couple days . . . and now I'll bore you with an engineer's point of view. There are sound engineering principals involved in the choice of left-hand lug nuts on the left side of the car . . . just as the use of left-hand knock-offs on the right side of cars with wire wheels. It depends whether the nut is in the center of the wheel or farther out . . . the loosening forces are generated in opposite directions in these two applications. What has happened is that the accountants have made the final decision on design of the car. It's cheaper to use all right-hand lug nuts. The same can be said of the bronze lug nuts, helical bronze oil pump gears, timing chains, etc. of the earlier cars." | ||
| Tony (64.215.196.168) Rating: N/A |
Thanks Don That's was what I was waiting for, where does that leave you with the Insurance Co. Tony | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.41)
Rating: N/A |
Don, you left out the best part: "Unlike center-lock (wire or mag) wheels, the advantage to using right and left-hand threads on opposite sides of the car (with disk wheels) is small. It only makes a difference if the nut are loose . . . loose enough that there is movement between nut, wheel & stud (however slightl) as the wheel rolls. A left-hand thread on the left side will not come off . . . the wheel will still be loose and the stud will saw its way into the the disk. The final failure will probably be broken studs and wheel will fall off. With right-hand threads, the nuts will continue to loosen, fall off, and the wheel will fall off. I'm not sure which I prefer!!! But, I know I'm with John when it comes to lug nuts, bronze is best . . . unless you have alloy wheels and the galvanic corrosion . . . . . . . . . ." http://www.digest.net/alfa/archive/v8/msg00282.html | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.13)
Rating: N/A |
Yeah, thanks Geoff, something went amiss with my copy and paste technique. Also of interest, unlike the USA sites, the UK Government engineering sites seem to attach no importance or signigicance to LH threads and studs theory, does anybody have an car from the UK with LH threads? Gonna have to check with Europe and other countries for their opinions. | ||
| DonTX/KS (66.82.9.13)
Rating: N/A |
Yeah, thanks Geoff, something went amiss with my copy and paste technique. Also of interest, unlike the USA sites, the UK Government engineering sites seem to attach no importance or signigicance to LH threads and studs theory, does anybody have an car from the UK with LH threads? Gonna have to check with Europe and other countries for their opinions. Better yet, if anyone is in Japan, Germany Korea and so on, take a look at wheels on cars and big trucks both, any left hand threads? (Export stuff not included.) |
