| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (67.234.239.45)
Rating: N/A |
There is a good thread going on over at the Woodall site: http://www.woodalls.com/cforum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/13206097/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm Or you can search for the words "fire extinguisher" at the woodall site: http://www.woodalls.com/ The major point made in this thread is that the typical dry chemical extinguisher that is in most of our units is very prone to "caking" with all of the bouncing and that can be a real problem. The thread also discusses alternative fire extinguishers. I have also posted quite a bit of information about fire suppression systems at: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/serv01.htm Jim Shepherd Evergreen CO '85 Eagle 10 Bus Conversion http://rvsafetysystems.com | ||
| CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.126) Rating: N/A |
The Dry Chemical Fire extinguisher is a great unit for its purpose. It is used extensively in the Boating industry. "CAKING" or when the powder compacts from the boat pounding on the waves occurs over time, it doesnt happen over night. The recommended maintenance is to turn the extinguisher over every so often to let the powderloosen and poor to the other side. If you listen closely, you can hear it moving inside. There are other types of extinguishers but they all have a specific purpose and you need to use the right one. Dry Chemical is the all around use unit, oil, fuel, (engine) fires as well as interior fires works well. Is a messy agent to clean up but will save your coach if needed. CO2 extinguishers use CarbonDioxide, work by starving the fire for air. They will put out an oil fire but if the metal is still hot,or a spark is present, the oil, or fuel, will flash back when the air hits the fuel again. Best scenario for CO2 (but not the only use) is to use CO2 in a small enclosed area, the CO2 fills the area, being heavier than air, the gas will float down to the fire and starve it of oxygen, putting it out. Being enclosed, the CO2 will remain in the enclosed area dissplacing the air, preventing air from reaching the fuel thus keeping the fire out. SAFETY NOTE: if in an enclosed area and you use a large amount of CO2, ventilate the area before entering as people cannot breathe without air, the gas that CO2 dissplaces. CO2 Leaves no mess to clean up. Halon is similar to CO2 in operation but is now declaired just as dangerous as CO2 and you must use similar precautions. I also read where Halon will attack and eat hot copper, printed circuits, etc as the Halons action upon hot copper turns to an acid. Imagine, they use this to protect computer systems. A fire could destroy the system by triggering the halon. And of course Water is the simplest and easiest available. Not good to use on oil fires but paper wood, etc, good suppressant. Any extinguisher is good if it is all you have, read up and get the ones you need. "Imagine Your Dreams" cdcdcdcd | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (67.234.181.150)
Rating: N/A |
Cory, you make some good points, but you left out a discussion about the surfactant type of fire extinguishers. The name that most folks think of is Cold Fire, but there are others. It is great for Class A (general combustibles) and Class B fires (liquid fuel) which are typical of bus fires. Halon and Cold Fire/Fire X are the only two types of systems approved by NHRA for onboard systems for all classes including the Nitro Fuel classes which have such horrendous fires. The NHRA Safety Safari truck used Cold Fire the last I knew. The other good thing about the surfactant extinguishers is that they can be easily charged and maintained by the owner. The other major problem with the dry powder extinguishers is that the size is often pretty small and thus, the fire fighting capability is pretty limited. I went to our local RV show this week and the extinguishers they put in the new motorhomes (including some of the big muthers) is a joke. Might put out a stove fire, but would not touch an engine fire or a brake/tire fire. Whatever a person chooses, they ought to go oversize to make sure they can fight a good sized fire in the boonies where they will not have help. Jim | ||
| CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.163) Rating: N/A |
My experience with CLASS A (paper, wood, solid but NOT metals) was to use WATER, Dry Chem could work but water was always deemed best. CLASS B (liquids, gasoline, oils) were primarily fought with Dry Chemical or for industry, FOAM. Dont use water, it will spread the fire as oil and gas will float on top. CLASS C (electrical) generally, CO2 was best, Halon was added later but now is not being made for environmental reasons anymore. You can still buy it but has the problems mentioned in my post above and as the avalable quantities diminish, the cost will increase. CLASS D (metal) you need a metal compound extinguisher. mostly needed in a shop, I don't think this would be a good item for a bus. Vapour gas leaks can be fought with dry chemical units. We did it to a hi psi propane leak in fire school, talk about a hot fire. Again, I dont think a bus conv has this type of hazard. I like the CO2 but not a popular item for the bus conv. I have DryChem but as mentioned above, get a few of them. Keep at least a pair at each door, stove, anywhere you think to store them. They are small, unles you get an industrial unit which is big and cumbersom, and the smaller unit provides only a short blast. I havent seen the type mentioned that is user servicable so I can't comment on them. I view user servicable items with caution, especially on items of life saving devices that have to be available for use at a moments notice and be dependable. If you look at these units, use your judgement on ease of refill and tripple check for dependability. "Imagine Your Dreams" cdcdcdc | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.117.139.135)
Rating: N/A |
I don't know if its practical but what about putting the same system that's in race cars in the engine compartment. It's probably pretty pricy but it would do the trick I would think and it could eleminate adding air to the fire when you open your access doors to try to fight it. Just a thought I had while reading. | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (24.207.240.13)
Rating: N/A |
I bought 3 of the 10 lb size ABC extinguishers for the coach. One up front, one in the bedroom, and one under the coach in the middle bay. I will add something in the kitchen also when I get to that part. I plan to have a garden hose on a reel in the bay next to the water pump as a backup item. For a brake or tire fire where the issue is cooling the fire down, a 100 gal tank of water can be a handy backup. Something also mentioned here before was a couple of "portholes" in the engine compartment to hit a fire that won't allow you to enter through the back. I have one on each side with flaps (old recepticle covers for the 120V AC lights when it was a bus, moved to a good place. Something to think about is to have a pair of leather gloves at each extinguisher. You may need them and they are cheap ($5) at Harbor Freight. Good to open a hot panel door! Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (67.234.211.163)
Rating: N/A |
Nick, I am trying not to "pre-broadcast” my article that will appear in Bus Conversions Magazine. However, I present some statistics from two bus fire studies done by the Finnish government. In reports covering 2000 and 2001 they studied over 60 bus fires on buses ranging in age from 1985 to 2000 as I recall. Over 50% of those fires were engine compartment related. As a result, it does make good sense to think about a mounted engine compartment fire suppression system. Two such systems can be found on my site at: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/prod02.htm I have an agreement from BC that they will allow me to post a PDF of the article on my site after it is published. In the mean time, part of the article is published at: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/serv01.htm Jim | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.43.71)
Rating: N/A |
"Whatever a person chooses, they ought to go oversize to make sure they can fight a good sized fire in the boonies where they will not have help." The fire service has, for many years, Jim, been advocating NOT going oversize because of the inherent safety risk to life. A good sized fire creates good sized smoke, good sized toxins and good sized heat. The 2000 Finnish study suggested that of the 50% "engine compartment" fires, 73% of them were in low floor transit buses which see over 71% of passenger travel. Of those, only 21% of the fires started in or spread to the passenger compartment. All passengers escaped the fires. But that's mostly in transit vehicles with three exits and speaks to good fire resistive materials in the engine compartments. There were no single door vehicles included in the study. Put a spreading fire into the back of a converted bus with the owner holding any sized fire extinguisher and you have a world of trouble - especially if you advocate such a scenario. That 6 or 10 steps to the front of a smoke filled burning bus where the fire is propagating at a rate of 100% every minute that passes, are going to be impossible for a lot of people to make, given their physical shape and the adrenaline rush of the moment. Remember, one deep breath of superheated smoke will end your life. Forget the fire altogether. Leave the RV, call 9-1-1 and wait for the fire department to arrive. Fire services have taught it that way for decades and reduced fire deaths amongst RVers to almost nil. If you have a little fire, sure, save the RV, but if it needs more than a single 5 or 10 lb extinguisher, save your life, instead. Properly insure your bus, follow simple safety practices, including a daily circle check of your bus when it's in use. Get or do regular maintenance. Drive moderately. Don't just buy an extinguisher, learn how to use it. Discharge it a bunch of times. Practice with it. Keep fit, eat properly and excercise. You and your bus will live a long life that way. If it burns down to the ground some day, at least you'll be around to tell the story. And remember DML's bus fire? Just how many people on the bulletin boards thanked God that no one was hurt. I'm sure those wishes included thanking God that no one was hurt fighting the fire, too. Hope you include that in the Bus Conversions article. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Terrance A.Haag (Mrbus) (64.12.96.105)
Rating: N/A |
I would like to add one more tip to Ian's excellent advice, to help and protect the firefighters, please mark the compartment with the propane tanks inside. Sure is nice to know these things when approaching a burning vehicle. Gus Haag | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.117.139.135)
Rating: N/A |
Good idea Gus, how would you recomend? HASMAT label or just lettering on the bay? | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (67.235.113.159)
Rating: N/A |
Ian, you make a very good point. I did not say that in the article, but I will contact Bus Conversions and add that thought since they have not gone to press yet. My focus was not on the interior fire, but rather the more typical brake/tire and engine/generator fire. Here you are on the outside of the bus where you can fight a fire if you have to. Or as pointed out in an earlier post, you can mount a permanent system and simply pull the cable and run away. Again addressing an EXTERIOR fire, a person has to use good judgment. It is possible that the fire would occur where there is no cell phone service and help is not readily available. The surfactant type extinguishers (say a 1.5 or 2.5 gallon unit) have a lot of fire fighting power and enough flow that permits fighting a fire from a few feet away. In my mind, it would sure be worth a try to knock down the fire and save the bus. Jim | ||
| Scott Whitney (69.35.6.233) Rating: N/A |
Yes, where can one get a good quality sticker indicating propane compartment(s)? I put some on mine when I bought my tanks, but a year later, the red die has faded and it is not as clearly marked as I would like. Something metal and embossed or just a good vinyl sticker would be good. Scott | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60) Rating: N/A |
www.grainger.com | ||
| Cory Dane (66.155.188.253) Rating: N/A |
I see people recommend Granger all the time but Granger by my place Does Not Serve the Public. You must be a business for them to even talk to you. I would never go to Granger again | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.205.60) Rating: N/A |
thats funny.... i walk in and buy at the "will call" all the time.... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
I have been buying from granger all over the country, I think I had to use plastic though. Also, it may vary from state to state as to the definition of wholesale. I believe to be a wholesaler in some states, you must not do any business with the consumer. However, almost everything I have bought from granger, could have been bought from elsewhere for less, and usually I find those places. Gary | ||
| gary Stadler (68.7.217.217) Rating: N/A |
Technically you have to have an account to buy from Grianger. Some of the offices are more lax than others. But it's no biggie to set one up, and the benefits of being able to get stuff from Grainger are well worth the trouble! Have fun.... and while you're at it, email McMaster for one of their free catalogs... quite a good source as well... http://www.mcmaster.com/ gary | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.209.10)
Rating: N/A |
Hello all. As a word of warning, do NOT put Hazmat/TDG placards, or anything that looks like them, on your bus conversion to indicate the location of your propane tanks. That is not what they comunicate to your emergency responders, and there are expensive commercial level fines for misusing the Hazmat/TDG system. I am hopefully correct in assuming that no one around here is carrying in excess of the placardable threshold of gas in their conversions.... Up here in Canada, your Dangerous Goods becomes placardable when you get above 500 kilograms/1100 pounds. Those are the ones that have nothing to do with the vehicle's propulsion system. Regardless of personal or commercial use, regulations make no distinction at that amount of product. A knowledgable American expert may jump in here with the US federal HAZMAT details. So, how much generator/heater/furnace/stove fuels beside the vehicle engine tank are we carrying? The federales love to wait for RV's coming through tunnels with HAZMAT restrictions.... Lots to be said for the single fuel, single tank approach? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| john wood (209.137.231.102)
Rating: N/A |
FMCA gives a wonderful fire supression class at their regional rallys. The instructor demonstrates and makes a very good case for the newer foam extinguishers. Don't see them for sale at the local hardware tho. Instructor reccomended having three extinguishers at min. one in bedroom, one in kit and one in a bay outside. He also said that you should try one before you actually need one. Excellent material, highly reccomend attending a seminar when you can. jw | ||
| Johnny (63.159.152.227) Rating: N/A |
I'll be carrying CO2 extinguishers, 2, maybe three in the bus, & one in a bay. I've used them, & they're the best thing short of a fire hose to deal with a brake fire. | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.40.68.6)
Rating: N/A |
Would it be a good investment to put a built in system in with the generator and diesel fired water/coach heater? | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (67.73.204.102)
Rating: N/A |
Nick, having a mounted extinguisher for a generator or diesel fired heating unit (or propane for that matter) does not make sense to me. I sell a permanently mounted racing type extinguisher for around $300. That is a small price to pay for good protection if there is a likelihood of a fire. Engine compartment fires do occur on occasion (some statistics were quoted earlier in this thread) and I am going to install a mounted unit in my bus to be on the safe side. There are no statistics on generator or heating unit fires that I can find. I called Wrico and talked to Bill (Dick is out of the office for the rest of the month). Bill is pretty darn knowledgeable and he has only heard of a couple of generator fires. He said that one was because of a bad installation and one was probably the result of a very dirty/oily compartment. I thought about calling other vendors, but they always get nervous when you ask questions about fires . Generator exhaust systems do not get as hot as engine exhaust and there is only one source of fuel (as opposed to three with an engine – fuel, transmission and power steering fluids). My approach has been to develop a fire detection system that is installed in both the engine and generator compartment. The cost of the system will be in the same range as a mounted extinguisher and can give early detection for both compartments. The development of the alarm system is in the final stages and beta units are being built in the next couple of weeks. In the near future I will be looking for beta testers for this unit. If you are interested, talk to me off line Sorry for the long reply. Jim Shepherd Evergreen, Co ’85 Eagle 10 http://rvsafetysystems.com email: jim at rvsafetysystems (you make the obvious change and add .com sorry, but I just hate spam) | ||
| Scott Whitney (69.35.6.233) Rating: N/A |
Hi Jim, Are Beta testers required to set their engine compartments on fire to test the equipment?  Scott | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_Safetyman) (67.73.184.194)
Rating: N/A |
Scott, I will be asking a few things of the beta testers, but lighting their engine compartment up is not one of them. However, since you brought it up........ Jim |