| Author | Message | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 121 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
I have a real "rv pad" now! Last year I put in filtered water near the septic hook up and this weekend a friend set up a panel at my house to have another 120 outlet, a 30amp and even a 50amp! Im so excited! He taught me a lot about it all as he was putting it in and even showed me some tools to get before I do the electric on the bus. I gotta admit, it sure seems easy now. Here's some photos http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/hookups%20at%20the%2 0house/ | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 577 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121  Rating: N/A |
The Fluke and the beeper meter are must haves. Looks good. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2065 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
That'll be great and keep the tires from sinking into the ground while waiting for fuel to drop so you can afford to take it somewhere. Looks great! and nice to see it not getting done on the cheap. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
unfortunatley it seems this set up is against code and can create a fire, so it has to go down  | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 489 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.201.171  Rating: N/A |
Teresa, Please don't take it down. After reading what Sean has to say and looking at your photos, it looks to me like all you need to do is add a sub panel from your 100 amp breakers and delete the rest of the breakers that are there. After that, it's just a matter of correctly wiring the sub panel in and adding the correct breakers for your 50/30/20 amp service and then wiring in the proper receptacles. Here in Texas, the RV hookups are required to be weather proof, but I'm not sure what requirements are in your area. Now, We just did all new power pedestals here at our campground, replacing everything from the meter head to the receptacle. I have a bunch of the used sub panels some with almost new 20a 30a and 50a breakers. I also have a lot of new spare wire in 2gauge, 6 gauge and 10 gauge. I would be happy to send you enough to make your installation correct, if Sean or George Todd agree that that's what is needed to fix it. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 124 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
If they approve, sure! Thanks Dallas! I will gladly pay for it and cover shipping. Actually I could use 2 because I have another place I wanted to install the same type of setup as well. As for the code stuff, I really think we are over regulated on a lot of stuff. But I dont want to kill my family or burn down my home with experimental stuff. If it could cause a FIRE then no.... I dont want to do it, but if I risk an outlet not powering something then that is a different story. | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 490 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.201.171 Rating: N/A |
Teresa, In the picture: http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/hookups%20at%20the%2 0house/?action=view¤t=009.jpg What is the top receptacle for? It looks like a dryer or welder hook up, neither of which will be happy with the wire size you are using. Email me.... I can send you a PDF of a correct RV pedestal setup. My Email is in my profile here and at BCM. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, it is for a welder on a 30amp breaker. I have an adapter to fit it that will work with a rv 30amp cord...... | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1091 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.51.199 Rating: N/A |
Teresa, here is the outlet box with the plug the county made me use for the RV a Milbank 63WL cost about 30 bucks and are mounted 24 inches above ground good luck | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
I got a chip in my eye recently, so Im not exactly seeing the best right now...... but, I dont see a box??? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1257 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.47  Rating: N/A |
Teresa, just to be clear, I don't think this all needs to come out. There are just some code issues that need to be corrected. Whether or not the boxes mounted directly to the pedestal are an issue depends mostly on your local code officer. The NEC does not prohibit it outright, so long as no listings are violated. The 20-amp receptacle needs to come out, as we discussed. The wire size may be an issue, as I wrote on the other thread. I can't tell from the photo. The 30-amp needs a minimum of #10, and the 50-amp circuit needs a minimum of #6. That will let you go up to 122°F ambient and still be OK. If those wires are smaller, they will need to be replaced. If the county is OK with the boxes there, they need to be secured and the nipples need to be water-tight. (The box for the 20-amp interferes with the leftmost breaker space, currently empty, and needs to come out.) Proper anti-chafe grommets need to be installed. All conductors need to be properly identified. The smaller neutral wires need to be relocated from the larger lug, which is too big for them, to the smaller lugs below them. You did not show any photos of the dead-front, but that needs to be intact with no extra openings. If your county has a problem with the boxes mounted and/or directly wired to the meter panel, then you will need a small sub-panel and a main breaker for it, with a short run of wire to connect them. 8-space panels are $15, the breaker is probably another $15, and wire and conduit will probably come to another $30-$40 or so. Really, a good electrician can fix this installation in an hour or two with minimal materials. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 127 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
Okay. Taking the 120 out wont be a problem. I will open up the panel and take better photos of the numbers on the wires too. I have to look up what "anti-chafe grommet" means (maybe it is the cushy black gaskit like that is inside the outlet cover?) And I will try to figure out what you mean by "all conductors need to be properly identified". Also I will try to figure out what you mean by "the smaller neutral wires need to be relocated from the larger lug to the smaller lug".... the white wire relocation, I "think" I know what you mean.... but I want to make sure before I do it. What is a "dead front"? I will take photos if I know what it is.... | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 128 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
More pics as promised http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/hookups%20at%20the%2 0house/more%20house%20hook%20ups/ I even included the receipt from home depot lol And I put a tooth brush near a bunch of stuff to give a perspective of size of wire. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1221 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.62.8.233 Rating: N/A |
Teresa, I wasn't going to say anything, until I saw the above post, but here goes. I had concerns over the wire size also, and two wires under one screw on a circuit breaker or neutral screw are prohibited. Anti-chafing means protecting the wires from the sharp edges of the conduit box and the power panel. This can be done with either a "snap-in plastic bushing," or a "chase nipple" and "lock nut." Both are available at either Home Depot or your local electrical wholesaler, ask for the parts in quotes. The deadfront is the metal cover over the wires and terminals with the opening in it for the circuit breaker handles. It got its name because the old panels had exposed LIVE wires and switches, etc, and a newer front is DEAD. G | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
Please, speak up George  Im here to learn, not to get my ego stroked. This panel is close to my house and my house is a mobile home (think matchstick box). I take care of disabled family members who would have a difficult time getting out in case of a fire. I really cant take chances here. Thank you to for the explanations! I just removed the 120 outlet. http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/hookups%20at%20the%2 0house/more%20house%20hook%20ups/017.jpg | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1258 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.40 Rating: N/A |
Teresa, OK, it took me a while but I finally found a wire size in one of the photos. The 50-amp circuit is using 6 AWG wire, which is fine. I could not see any markings on the 30-amp circuit, but it needs to be 10 AWG. "Properly Identified" means that the neutral on the large 100-amp circuit needs to be wrapped with white tape near the end, and the second hot on each of the circuits needs to be wrapped with red tape at both ends. The neutrals for the new circuits were all shoved together under a single large lug, made for wires perhaps #2 and larger. They need to be relocated so each neutral has its own lug, and the lugs need to be the smaller ones for the smaller wires. Looks to me like there is a second neutral lug bar on the right side of the panel, obscured in the photos by one of the 50-amp hot leads, that is completely unused and has the correct sized lugs. The box for the 20-amp circuit should be removed altogether and the hole covered with a "KO Seal" (knock-out seal). The dead-front, now that I see it, looks fine. George, thanks for chiming in. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by Sean on April 15, 2011) | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Registered Member Username: Rv_safetyman Post Number: 327 Registered: 1-2004 Posted From: 67.142.130.19 Rating: N/A |
Just to show my ignorance here, but I am concerned about the 30 amp service. Teresa, you say that it is for a welder and that would be 220V. Then you mentioned some sort of adapter for an RV outlet. A 30 amp RV outlet is 110V I am probably missing something here. BTW, I have avoided posting on this board for a few weeks because of all the thread drift with penguin type talk. Looks like that has settled down, and the forum is back to bus-related discussion. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 130 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
It works like this http://tweetys.com/rvgeneratoradapter4-prong30amp.aspx (Message edited by happycamperbrat on April 15, 2011) | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
ugh! I should add that I made this adapter myself many years ago when my kids and I lived in our RV and for awhile we parked in a friend's driveway and hooked up to their 30amp outlet...... | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 469 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.187.35.208  Rating: N/A |
I'm afraid that's not going to work for you. That adapter is for a 220 volt Twist-Lock connector, not what you have installed. You could cut off the plug and replace it with a dryer plug, but it's kind of pricey to do that. In order to provide 30 amp service for an RV, you need either the proper RV receptacle or to fabricate an adapter for your 30 amp dryer (oops, welder) outlet. Not sure if that would meet code but it could be done safely. You could get one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Camco-55165-PowerGrip-Dogbone-Electrical/dp/B000BUU5YA/ref=pd_sim_au to_1 and replace the plug with one that fits your welder outlet. You would leave one of the hot plug legs unused. I don't know what wire size is used in that adapter. Hopefully, it's 10 ga. and not 12 Ga. Don't start with a dryer cable to make up an adapter unless you check the wire size carefully. They frequently have a smaller neutral than the two hot legs. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
It's not twist lock... Im at work now but when I get home I will dig around to find it and pull it out to take photos. The link I provided was just for an example.... it is a pigtail type adapter. But it wouldnt surprise me one bit if I end up having to redo this too | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1210 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 184.224.98.178  Rating: N/A |
On a side note, hows the eye doing? | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: |
Hi Ace! That magnet trick seems to have done the job! Ever since I used it, my eye has been getting better My son is soooo upset with me because just a couple moments before I did it he was lecturing me about not having my safety glasses on..... hmm, can it be a bus nut right of passage to get junk in your eye? As for the electric, right now Im waiting for help. A neighbor is supposed to come over and help me get another breaker in the panel. Im having a lot of problems trying to push that little bugger into place! And yes...... sigh, as you all knew and I did not..... the 30amp adapter I made was only 3 wires whereas my 30amp that I just installed is 4 wires.... So off to HD I went again and this time I got another 30amp breaker with the correct RV plug which will be dedicated for RV cords. Here's pics of my progress and the tools Im using and stuff. This time I even put captions to explain it. http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/ | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1222 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.62.8.233 Rating: N/A |
Teresa, Probably if the breaker doesn't want to fit, it is the wrong one for the panel. Most panels have excluders to prevent overloading by preventing too many large breakers. Look closely at the stabs, and see whether they have slots in them, or little "ledges," which will either allow or prevent certain breakers from fitting. G | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 134 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
George, Im sure the breaker is right. It has the 2 bottom curved things on my panel and the matching 2 slots on the bottom of the breaker. In fact that part fits perfect. The problem Im having is with the top 2 slots. Mark (the guy who first tried to install all this to begin with) had problems fitting a breaker in that place too and finally gave up (maybe that is why he didnt put a separate breaker for the 120?) The top 2 slots on the bus bar though look like they might be damaged.... I may have to change out the bus bar which will be yet another HUGE learning time for me. My neighbor didnt make it over this eve, so I have to wait still. And yes, I know that bus bar is always hot and not to touch it unless I call the electric company and turn off the power from the street. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1259 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
Teresa, Please don't use the wire from the extension cord inside the panel -- it's not allowed. The #10 THHN you got from Home Depot is the correct wire for the 30-amp circuit. The reason why the two wires from a double-pole breaker need to be different colors is to tell them apart. Yes, they are both hot, but they are different hots -- if you touched them together, you would have a 240-volt short. When you don't have different colored wire, you use tape at both ends. The color at each end of the wire should be the same. They don't have to be black and red; they can be black and blue, red and blue, or even other colors (except white, gray, or green), so long as both wires are different and the colors at both ends of each wire match. By custom, 120/240 panels with only two hots use black and red as the two colors, but it is just a custom and not a rule. Also, by custom, all the red wires are usually connected to one hot bus and all the black wires to the other. The adapter from the 30-amp, 4-wire, 120/240-volt receptacle (14-30R) to a standard RV 30-amp (TT-30) receptacle only has three wires. They must be #10 or larger. The ground on the 14-30P goes to the ground on the TT-30R, the neutral on the 14-30P goes to the neutral on the TT-30R, and one of the two hots on the 14-30P goes to the single hot on the TT-30R. It doesn't matter which hot you use. The other hot on the 14-30P is simply left unconnected. This, BTW, is also how a 50-amp (plug) to 30-amp (receptacle) RV "dogbone" is also wired; only one of the two hots in the 14-50P is used. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Registered Member Username: Rv_safetyman Post Number: 328 Registered: 1-2004 Posted From: 72.171.0.146 Rating: N/A |
Sean, I have seen those adapters and understand the concept of using one leg of a 240 volt circuit. The part I don't understand is the breaker. I have seen the double throw breakers where the two breakers are tied together with a small rod. Apparently if one leg is overloaded, that rod will not restrict one side of the breaker from dropping that circuit. For the 240 breaker with one "handle", I guess that it will trip if one leg is overloaded as well. The one that really scares me is the adapter that uses one leg of a 50 amp 240 circuit to supply a 30 amp 120 circuit. How is the downstream 30 amp service cable protected? Worse yet, a situation where there is not a master 30amp breaker at the entrance into the RV (as required). Jim | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1333 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.183.81  Rating: N/A |
Jim I have seen that scenerio many times also and have felt that when you have the bar across two single pole breakers to make it a 30,40 etc breaker,one side stays hot and SOMETIMES it doesn't kick out and presents a shocking experience. Gomer | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
My neighbor got the breaker in this morning. It went in not too hard for him, I just wasnt putting enough pressure. It's still early morning here and I need coffee and am at work lol. I'll return to this thread after I wake up and catch up with my day | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 1260 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.13 Rating: N/A |
Jim and Marvin, First off, the breaker in the photo is actually a double-pole breaker, not strictly a "handle-tie" breaker, although those also exist. In either case, an overload on any pole of a multi-pole breaker does trip the whole breaker. So this aspect of the installation is not unsafe. In fact, it is quite common to feed two 120-volt loads from a single double-pole or handle-tie breaker, in order to save on neutral wiring. In many homes, for example, the dishwasher and disposer are on opposite poles of a double-pole breaker and the circuit is run with a single 3+1 NM cable. Jim, your concern about the adapter is valid. In Teresa's case, since she has an adapter from a 30-amp 4-wire to a 30-amp 3-wire, there is no issue, since all components are within proper ratings. However, this is not the case with the 50-amp to 30-amp "dogbone" adapter you can buy in Camping World. These adapters are technically not code-compliant and can be dangerous if used improperly. I recommend against them, however it is seldom an issue for most bus conversions since the vast majority of them are legally required to have a 50-amp shore service anyway. (The opposite style of adapter, to combine the two legs of a 50-amp shore cable onto a single 30-amp plug, does not have the same safety issue, since the pedestal will be protected by a 30-amp breaker.) If you have a rig with a 30-amp shore service and absolutely must use one of these dogbone adapters, then, yes, you are relying on the 30-amp main breaker inside your rig to protect you as well as the cord itself. Unfortunately, the breaker in the rig can not fully protect anything upstream to the pedestal. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Registered Member Username: Rv_safetyman Post Number: 329 Registered: 1-2004 Posted From: 72.171.0.146 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Sean Teresa, you have given us all a chance to learn a few things. Some of the comments were probably not all that fun to read, but you will end up with a safe installation as a result. | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 136 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 72.67.16.123 Rating: N/A |
Wow! You mean I tore up an extension cord I didnt have to?! Thanks for explaining "everything" both here and at BCM!! Everybody is awesome!! Jim, you are right..... it hasnt been "all that fun to read" always, BUT the knowledge gained is incredible! Im soooo glad that this has helped other people too! Doing it right instead of hacking it isnt that hard and the liability/safety savings is absolutely immeasurable! Thank you Sean especially! You are my new hero | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 137 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
Okay, I got the welder outlet installed...... but I think Im going to have to redo it once more because I was too cheep to buy another outlet box and i cant get a cover over it! http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/ | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 139 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
Finally got the welder plug in but now Im onto the RV plug and have this extra double pole 30amp breaker. The RV plug I bought is 3 wire, but the breaker takes 2 wires....... so, Im thinking I need to buy a single pole to use with the RV plug..... is that right? edit: drrrr..... I think this question has been answered many times here and at BCM. I'll post again when the box is all done. Thanks everyone! (Message edited by happycamperbrat on April 18, 2011) | ||
| Donald P H (Eagle19952)
Registered Member Username: Eagle19952 Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.202.202.211 Rating: N/A |
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100491809/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/7b/7bec1885-8d60-41ed-b093-  | ||
| Teresa (Happycamperbrat)
Registered Member Username: Happycamperbrat Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2009 Posted From: 173.25.102.41 Rating: N/A |
That first link says: <i>This book from The Home Depot teaches how to rewire lamps, replace plugs, reset breakers, and detach old wires. Learn how to install new fixtures, run cable, and add circuits. Helps avoid common mistakes, select the best materials, use specialty tools. Handy time estimates and materials lists included.</i> I wasnt a "complete" unknown to the world of electric..... I have made and wired many lamps in my day, Ive replaced outlets & ceiling lights & wall switches in my homes, I learned how to reset a breaker many, many years ago, I dont remember the first time I pulled old wiring out of a fixture to replace it....... but it was probably about 15 or 20 years ago. This is all pretty basic stuff in the book. The project in this thread and what lays ahead of me by doing the bus is waaaaaaaaayyyyy bigger then rewiring a lamp. Thanks anyway, I really do appreciate the thought! For anyone who didnt see, I finally completed the project and the numbers are all testing out good. Next week I have an electrition coming out to give the final AOK on it all. In the album I put captions and comments about everything and I tried to document every single step of the way (even my mistakes), so it's kinda interesting if you got some time to kill and want to look http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/ |
