| Author |
Message |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.142.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 8:55 pm: | |
There was a 2" flexible hose running from the former poop-chute into the engine's fresh air intake, ahead of the air filter, I assume to help take away odors.
Now that there's no chute there, could I be fortunate enough to connect the free end to the top of black tank for venting? Would that be enough? Would it cause the engine to wonder what kind of air I'm feeding it?
This was prompted by Don's explanation of running the vent to wheel wells with future plans to plumb into fresh air intake. |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:18 pm: | |
It would if you dumped a volatile fuel through the toilet. I would think that it would work pretty good, otherwise.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Bill Gerrie (216.185.73.9)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:24 pm: | |
Chuck
There is no real reason that it wouldn't work. The air intake is open to the top when the engine isn't running so the fumes would rise and disappear I would hope. Anyone following you would think you have a different type of diesel fuel by the smell if they got too close. It may not be according to code but it would work. Bill |
John Feld (Deacon) (150.199.209.16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:24 pm: | |
The original design was for coach's that stayed running on the road. What happens when you park for a few days? If the engine is not running would it still pull the vent air?
John 4104, 4106 |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:57 pm: | |
John makes a good point, AND if the fumes would vent through the air filter to atmosphere when the enging isn't running, will you then have bacteria hanging around in your air filter? And will maybe methane collect there? waiting to go boom?
Brian |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.41.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 12:10 am: | |
Finally, a replacement for those propane injection systems. Like John, I wonder if there is enough free flow of air when the engine is not running. Other than that, it should work and I don't think your producing enough methane to matter. |
Phil Dumpster (24.16.189.48)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 2:00 am: | |
The original post mentioned it was connected in before the air filter, hence when not running the black vent tank would have a clear path to the outside via the engine intake vent.
As long as you don't dump gasoline into your black tank, it would work fine.
Fortunately, engines aren't concerned about the odor in the air they take in. It gets burned in the engine anyway so you probably wouldn't smell it in the exhaust, and the exhaust has enough noxious odor to it already. |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 8:17 am: | |
Thats correct Phil, this method was not one of my wild ideas, many coaches with bathrooms were built that way for years without any problems I was aware of. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 9:28 am: | |
What do you think is the volume of gas generated in a black tank on a continous basis? I suspect it is very, very low.
I also suspect that the most important purpose of the vent is to prevent pressurizing the black tank with gas build up. As long as the tank is vented to the atmosphere continously, I really do not see how the volume of gas could be significant enough to create any concern.
In a home style toilet, the volume of water flowing during a flush might have the possibility of building up pressure in the sewer line. Maybe even enough to blow back thru a sink trap. Especially if the sewer line was partially blocked and there was no vent line.
However, the RV type toilet actually opens the black tank to the atmosphere during flushing, so I see no possibility of pressurizing the black tank during flushing.
Richard |
John Feld (Deacon) (150.199.209.20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
My concern is not with the amount of gas that might be present, rather the smell that might be vented to the outside from the air intake vents while parked. Isn't the purpose of a vent higher up to dispense the odor, it isn't pleasant to park next to the porta-potty.
John 4104, 4106 |
Marvin (65.35.118.179)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 2:45 pm: | |
.
What about using "Air Admittance" valves like
home builders that do not want roof penetrations.
They are made by Studor and available at Home Depot. |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.37.185)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 3:22 pm: | |
Air intake vents, by design,do nothing to address venting the accumulation of odors and gases in a tank. They do aid in drainage problems on long runs and that is all they are designed for and just about all they will do. |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (69.3.74.201)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 3:35 pm: | |
Well, I haven't heard a "NO WAY" yet, so as I get closer to tanking I may hook up this first and then if it proves insufficient poke a hole thru the roof.
As always, I'm crouching on the shoulders of giants. Thank you for sharing your insight.
-Chuck |
DaveD (64.235.206.80)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 4:21 pm: | |
Air admittance valves work due to a drop in pressure as a line drains, so wouldn't be suitable for a black water vent.
Motor coach holding tanks would normally be serviced on a frequent basis, likely emptied daily in many cases. RV tanks, on the other hand may go longer between emptying. I wouldn't want germ laden foul smelling air venting from my engine compartment while I was in a campground, or worse if I had to work on or around the engine.
A properly installed vent through the roof shouldn't leak anyway. Through the roof vent pipes meet the applicable codes and are relatively simple to install.
My opinion, anyway.
Dave Dulmage
(MC-8) |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 4:59 pm: | |
I still maintain, that if you are venting all this foul smelling gas, either from the roof or from the engine intake or from the wheelwell, you are going to find someone from the campground explaining to you the proper way to treat a waste tank. I have lived in campgrounds for a total length of time of only 2 1/2 years, but that has been my experience, and vented from the roof has usually been the worst offenders. I have had to "suggest" ways for people to stop bad odors several times. With the swirls of breezes and air currents, it still stinks when it comes down from the roof, and often becomes pressurized when driving down the road with certain wind and window opening conditions. At least one converter I know of used two roof vents to try to overcome this, and sometimes it STILL happens.
There is certainly nothing WRONG with a roof vent, but why make another hole that CAN leak, when it is not needed? I feel the main purpose of the vent is for pressure equalization in the tank, both during filling it and draining it. |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.165.58)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 5:13 pm: | |
"...and the exhaust has enough noxious odor to it already."
PHIL! Wassamatter with you?!
As TwoDogs said awhile back, "I LOVE THE SMELL OF DIESEL [exhaust] IN THE MORNING!" |
gary Stadler (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 7:32 pm: | |
If you go thru the roof, it's simple to eliminate pressure when driving... just cut the pipe sticking out at a 45 degree angle with the long side facing toward the front of the bus. This makes the vent act like a venturi when you're driving, and puts a nice vacuum on the system. When the wife flushes the pottie while underway, air goes IN the pot and OUT the vent like it should, and there's no chance of smelling a thing inside. I've done two busses this way and it works extremely well... simple... effective. |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 11:51 am: | |
Gary's idea sounds great except I'd want a rain cap for any vent poking out of the roof.
Okay Don, I'll bite, what DO you suggest is the best
way to stop "bad odors"?
Brian |
gary Stadler (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 1:13 pm: | |
Why on earth would you need a rain cap for a vent that goes into a big poo tank?
Oh.... Heavens... you're right!@!@!@!@! If it rained five inches and ya had a non capped vent pipe over your 50 gallon pooh tank, ouch, your water level might raise....um.....1/32 of an inch...???
Hee hee, no, cap really not necessary unless you plan on parking the bus under a waterfall...
My take on stopping "bad odors" is to feed my pottie and grey tanks a nice dose of (LIQUID) "Eco-Save" after I dump. The stuff is the best i've found, recommended to me by this board a few years ago.
It works GREAT and I've never once smelled my pooh, even sitting weeks on end in the hot desert with almost full tanks.
Fetchable from JWH Distributors, Box 195, Santa Rosa, CA 95402. (800) 950-9666 or (707) 579-0643.
Their web site:
www.eco-save.com |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 7:11 pm: | |
I know of lots that DON'T work, but the one I liked best is DuPree TREATZALL. Read about it here: http://www.dupreeproducts.com/
Several of us ordered a few CASES of it we liked it so well, looks like kitty litter, works wonderful and fast, have used ONLY that for years.
I am not sure of the slanted top being correctly called a venturi, but some have made a "conventional" venturi, by putting a "T" fitting on top with proper sizing. (Also stops premature tank dumping from all that rainwater filling the tank) |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.40.154.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:24 pm: | |
"Why on earth would you need a rain cap for a vent that goes into a big poo tank?"
Well, what if you happen to WANT to park under a waterfall? hmmm?
Actually I was more concerned with leaves, pine needles and anything else that might find a way into
the 'poo tank' and potentially cause problems.
Brian |
john w. roan (Chessie4905) (69.162.16.88)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 7:55 pm: | |
Just think... With the waste tank vented to the air intake, you won't have to go outside in the cold to use ether. Just spray into toilet and start. Make sure you turn on bathroom vent for a few minutes afterwards or warn the wife.(: |
pete (205.188.209.8)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 9:19 am: | |
ok....call it a construction workers question here but ive tried to follow this idea here...is the intake is sucking the air out of the tank..where the hell is the fresh air going to get INTO the tank so you dont collaps the tank? if its comming fron the drains and toilets....god forbid someone sits on the damn thing goiong up hill..
"Just spray into toilet and start" this is the line of thinnin i got here...
help me out with this one..
pete |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.220)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 9:52 am: | |
Hmmm. I had assumed that the suction would not be very great, as most of the air to the intake comes from outside the bus. I'd better crank her up this weekend and see if the vacuum on that hose is more like a Hoover or more like a Dustbuster. Good point, Pete. |
mark (66.43.13.31)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 6:27 pm: | |
I heard about a woman that 'flushed' while she was still on the potty (in an airplane)...
The suction pulled about 6 feet of her intestine out.
Heard about it on Paul Harvey...must be true.
mark |
JJJ (172.174.42.6)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 9:29 pm: | |
Yah, & my neighbor built his own septic tank...His lady was on the latrine when the top of the septic tank caved in & created a guysewer at every drain in the house...
JJJ |
Tim Brandt (Timb) (12.8.192.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:04 am: | |
Mark
Have you ever heard of a show called Mythbusters on the discovery channel? They tried to replicate that scenario |
Rodger in WA (64.70.24.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:46 pm: | |
I may get some flack on this but here's my input.
My bus was converted when I bought it. The black/grey tank is vented with 1/2" pvc pipe exiting the top of the tank and routed down the side of the tank through the bay floor with a tee fitting oriented fore and aft under the bay floor. I didn't like this arrangement and it was my intent to change it, but I decided to try it first and see if routing it through the roof was worth the considerable tear out work required.
Over several years of use, the through the floor arrangement has proved 100% satisfactory. The only time I've noticed even a whiff of sewer smell is when adding rinse water via the rinser with the dump valve closed. My reason for closing the valve while adding rinse water is to get a few gallon of water in the tank before redumping in order to more completely flush out the tank and sewer hose.
In campgrounds with dumps at the parking site, I don't use odor control chemicals but I dump the tank every other day. Only when I don't expect to dump every couple of days, I use chemicals.
We've noticed narry a holding tank smell in the coach, ever.
On two occasions, I've allowed myself to be distracted and inadvertantly overfilled the tank while adding rinse water with the dump valve closed. The consequence was a little dirty water onexiting the vent pipe unto the ground, which I quickly diluted with water clean from the fill hose. That seems preferable to flooding the coach or spewing dirty water out of a through the roof vent should the tank be overfilled. |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.43)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 11:07 pm: | |
No flack, just satisfaction that "here is another one that works quite well that way", without a hole in the roof. I was worried that the small size would cause problems, but when draining I suppose the p traps just gurgle and allow air to replace the liquid, nothing wrong with that. |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 11:24 pm: | |
If dirty water was spewing out the roof vent, you would be in a world of hurt it you tried flushing the toilet. I think your sinks and shower would be overflowing also. LOL
Richard |
DonTX/KS (66.82.9.67)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 7:57 am: | |
Well Richard, only until the bus was full of water, THEN it would have no other place to go but spewing out the roof vent, right? :-) |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 8:15 am: | |
Yep!
Richard |
john w. roan (Chessie4905) (69.162.16.88)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 10:00 pm: | |
If you vent it to the air cleaner BEFORE the filter between filter and intake louvers, You should never have a suction problem unless the louvers are too small for the coach.Sorry if my humor offended. |