| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.201.133.121 Rating: N/A |
I've worked through some questions that have led me to decide to start over with a different shell. We're working toward a long-term, full-time coach. Several have raised questions about the advisability of using an S-50 engine. Several have issued dire warnings about the engine being "obsolete" and about horrible vibration trouble, but no one seems to be able to speak first hand about such trouble. All the 50s I know make their owners happy, and I think it is a good choice for us. I'm looking for longevity, reliability, efficiency and compactness (as compared to an S-60 or most other 6 cylinder engines). I've asked for, and so far not received, any negative PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with the S-50. All the opinions I've read are, at best, second hand. If you have owned or used an S-50 that gave excessive trouble of any sort, please let me know. I VALUE your experience and input. By the same token, if you've used and LIKED an S-50, please share that experience. I don't buy the argument that the 50 is obsolete. They stopped making them in 2004, but the engine is plentiful and relatively inexpensive. Parts appear to be in abundant supply. They are far less "obsolete" than any 2 stroke, and available power is more than adequate for my needs. It's a million mile engine, and if I start with a good one, it should easily outlast me. Please tell me what you think. I'm all ears. Jim in NC | ||
| Cable (Fe2_o3)
Registered Member Username: Fe2_o3 Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 50.46.185.136  Rating: N/A |
The transit co.I worked for ran series 50 in their New Flyer coaches through the 90's. They had a fierce vibration at a stop when in gear. Shook so much the mirrors were useless unless you could reach them to hold them still. Those bought in the last half of the decade were not as bad, due to a new mounting system. Not a powerhouse, but was a dependable 500 to 700k mile engine if the phantom alarms didn't shut you down...Cable | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1112 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
I owned 5 FL 106 Freightliners with the series 50 320 hp and owned 3 pieces of equipment with 275 hp series 50.A beer hauler in Tulsa had 20 FL 106's we fought for service space at United Engine because the City of Tulsa kept United pretty damn busy with the buses and the series 50 lol fwiw they still manufacture the 2 stroke. No way a million miles 300 thousand then the balance shaft breaks or sooner. Fwiw mine were all EGR engines a joke John Deere has stop manufacturing the balancing shafts and head I say go for it man it is your dime (Message edited by luvrbus on May 12, 2011) | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 75.201.133.121 Rating: N/A |
This is the stuff I wanted to see. Keep it coming, you nay sayers with experience. I've never seriously considered not using an S-50, but I'll look hard at alternatives. A lot will depend on what shell we end up buying. If I find a D3, it should already have something we can live with. If the final choice is a C3, then I'll be back to considering options. It will NOT be a 2 stroke. I'd still love to hear more first-hand S-50 experience. Jim in NC | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 317 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213  Rating: N/A |
Jim what is your aversion to a 60 series? I have one in my 1995 MCI 102 D 3 and just love it Smooth, strong and quite good on fuel On trips from Las Vegas to Edmonton AB, back to Las Vegas and back to Edmonton I got an average of 10.4 Mpg Imp. Granted the coach was empty and light but had the roof raised 8 inches. My brother who is a long distance trucker has owned several of them and very much likes them. Just my two cents worth Les | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
I'm curious as to the desire to repower, I can see it if the old engine is hatched but to repower for fuel mileage would take a lot of miles to recoup the difference, I guess I'm the old 'run what ya brung' guy,, I've got a 6V92 and it runs great, has enough power for me and doesn't mark it's territory, it'll outlast me for all practical purposes but then I'm a poor guy that really shouldn't own a bus anyway. What cornfuses me is so many are unhappy with the engines they have, or they are unhappy with the tranny or something else, it seems more logical if a person is looking for a bus to find the one with the engine and tranny they want, I guess lately I've had to separate my needs from my wants and work from there. I guess if a person can afford it anything is within reach, but for me what I got is what I will have for a long time, good lord willing. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 499 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Now for more pennies, those are canuckies that is, worth more than the down south variety. Not an exact personal experience, because I have never owned one. Last year one of our area transit co sold off articulated Flyers some with 50 engines. I dug up the records for 2 of them, both total miles gone was 353000 miles. Engines were replaced at 320 and 328000 miles. Certainly didnot make it to a high milage, admittedly they had to work pretty hard lugging a 60 footer around. At another transit garage I ended up talking to a mechanic and he mentioned the coming apart of the 50, then pointed to a 6v92 and said "Bullit Proof" Thats my three cents worth and I am sticking to it. Joe. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 500 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Jim Greyhound may have some Cat equipped C3's with 7 speed manual left. If you like Cat | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.250.254.164 Rating: N/A |
Does a C3 have room for an S-60 without body modification? I love the 60 even though it's heavy, long, tall and expensive. I figured a 50 would be much easier to fit into a C3. Maybe they have more room than I thought. Jim | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1520 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.194.80.231  Rating: N/A |
Just as with the 2 stroke DD that "leak forever" the mechanical problems on the 50 seem to come from "mechanics" that have no concept of what they are doing. The balance shaft needs to be properly timed to the engine , not simply installed. DA Book as always needs to be followed. FF | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1521 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.194.80.231 Rating: N/A |
A friend has put together a 4106 with a ZF 5 speed (one OD) with a series 50. Ge is a PRO. Perhaps purchasing a finished running coach would take year or so off the time to hit the road? FF | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
I'm still trying to get a grip on this situation and have arrived at the conclusion that the reason for this repower is that the engine that is currently in use is shot, good as any other reason. Now be patient with me, just because I'm butt ugly doesn't mean I'm smart, in reading this and the previous thread, I'm lead to assume that 6V92's leak oil all over the floor and that S50;s shake terribly. I called an old logger friend that retired years ago but knows a little about detroits having dealt with them for years or so he claims, he said if an engine leaks oil, put some new gaskets in it and if an engine shakes, balance it, seemed logical to me, how would that sit on the balance beam as far as cost compared to repowering. I guess if you gotta remove an engine to work on it, you can just as easily slide a different one in as long as the hookups are the same or can be modified but is there a real advantage to doing this? It just makes sence to me that no factory would spend a lot of time creating a bad engine, that some bad engines may have resulted from the wrenches of people that shouldn't have them? I'm open to correction, I'm here to learn. | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 609 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Dan, Any engine will eventualy leak oil but like you say it's a matter of gaskets usually. I run the origional 6-71 natural in my coach. Yes it's a little pokey and I need to shift a lot on hills but it had a complete inframe done 40,000 miles ago. Though it sweats a little oil around the seams in the last 2000 miles of driving it hasn't lost more than a quart of oil. Bottom line don't rush to repower if it runs well someone will always be faster. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2081 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Remember that DDA two cycles have been around since, at least the 1940's. Parts will be available for a loooong time. How long has the 50 series been around? 10 or 15 years? Many of those leaks are from old gasket design technology, which requires a little extra care and use of the latest gasket and sealing products and also from the crankcase and airbox pressure. There is an item called AIRSEP that is used in boats to keep bilge clean from leaks and was offered for otr engines a few years ago that worked well for leaks. Also, the more ring and bearing wear in any engine will cause increased blowby and leakage. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
My 6V92 doesn't leak for some reason and I know there is oil in it lol, it takes me where ever I'm going and gets me home, I've been all over with it and enjoyed the company of many fine people, just wish the fuel prices would come down, hopefully, the bus will last me as long as I can enjoy it, I was looking at the bay doors and there are 3 good handles on each side so now I'm looking for 6 really strong people to be pallbearers when my ride is over, I figure I'll take the bus with me propped up in the drivers seat, that'll rattle an archyologist when they dig me up lol. | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 186 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.71.202.72  Rating: N/A |
I have a '53 4104 that leaks oil. I have a '68 MGB that leaks oil. I have a '76 Harley FLH that leaks oil. When any of the above does not leave an oil spot, I check the dipstick. Funny story, we were riding (Harleys) and stopped for a beer at the local Biker Bar. We were outside at a picnic table. A bud riding his Honda Valkyrie (sp?) pulled up and parked next to our Harleys. He got off, opened a saddlebag and took out a squirt type oil can. He squirted a few shots of oil under his Honda & tossed the oil can back in his bag. As he was headed for the door, he said "I just wanted to fit in". | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 187 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.71.202.72 Rating: N/A |
I have a '53 4104 that leaks oil. I have a '68 MGB that leaks oil. I have a '76 Harley FLH that leaks oil. When any of the above does not leave an oil spot, I check the dipstick. Funny story, we were riding (Harleys) and stopped for a beer at the local Biker Bar. We were outside at a picnic table. A bud riding his Honda Valkyrie (sp?) pulled up and parked next to our Harleys. He got off, opened a saddlebag and took out a squirt type oil can. He squirted a few shots of oil under his Honda & tossed the oil can back in his bag. As he was headed for the door, he said "I just wanted to fit in". Sorry Jim...didn't mean to pull your thread from your original question. | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
One of the big reasons I'm converting my truck is that it has a Caterpillar 3406B mechanical engine that is still being made. Most any mechanic knows how to work on them. As much as I love the 2 stroke Detroits, finding a capable engine mechanic is getting close to impossible these days. As to the Series 50's-excellent engines sans the balance shafts in the crankcase. Replace the balance shafts every 250,000 miles and the engine will be happy. A few years ago I rode on a bendy bus in Las Vegas with a Series 50. The bus was loaded with people and still had good acceleration. The vibration at idle was NOT noticeable-you just need the right soft engine mounts specifically made for the Series 50. The Series 50 is a tall engine. I would look at a Caterpillar C12, or a Cummins ISM since they are shorter. The current Cummins ISL, which is about 500lbs lighter then the Series 50 is rated at 450hp and 1250lb/ft torque for RV use. The ISL with Jake Brake would be my choice. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.250.238.48 Rating: N/A |
I'm looking hard at the ISL. I love the power to weight ratio. Jim | ||
| JC Alacoque (Jc_alacoque)
Registered Member Username: Jc_alacoque Post Number: 101 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.34.166.7 Rating: N/A |
I would be looking for a 102D3 with S60. Pre EGR preferably. They are in the 30 to 40000 dollar range now. All stainless steel, and you wouldn't have to change a thing in the power train. Hell of a nice bus. Keep it simple. JC | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2083 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.89.177.214  Rating: N/A |
and 40 foot 102D3 with a 7 speed is a less desirable commercial coach. Fewer seats, lower tier drivers wreck clutches even worse than top line used to. And that's if the driver doesn't quit when he sees the clutch pedal. The world has really changed over the last decade. Manual transmissions in the coach industry have gone the way of the Dodo some years ago now. Either an Allison or an automated mechanical. All the same from the driving standpoint, two pedals, put in drive, mash the fuel pedal. Really, once the novelty wears off your 13 speed, you'll typically only use 7 gears or so to get into the big hole anyway. Get the bus brokers working for you, tell 'em what you are looking for, they'll find it. MCI and Prevost have the largest traffic in traded in coaches. happy coaching! buswarrior (Message edited by buswarrior on May 14, 2011) | ||
| John Wooldridge (Moovin_on)
Registered Member Username: Moovin_on Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 166.250.38.210  Rating: N/A |
My S-50 has 650K on it and is reliable, economical, and gets over 10 MPG towing. It does not shake, although the idle is set at 850. Have now driven it about 30K since installation in my MC7, and I couldn't be happier. John | ||
| Jim Huskins (Lostranger)
Registered Member Username: Lostranger Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 72.250.238.48 Rating: N/A |
John, thanks for confirming what I still believe to be the great potential of an S-50. My friend who put one into an MC 9 loved it. It was an entertainer coach and saw much more mileage than we'll be driving in a typical year. After all the discussion, the 50 is still at the top of my list unless we happen onto the right D3. As far as my interest in a 13 speed, the point of having all those gears is to have what you need when you need it. The novelty never wears off of having a super low when you need to pull away from that stop for road work while climbing Cox's Creek grade. Ditto for double overdrive when conditions call for speed. I'm not in a big hurry, but with 13 gears, you can always make the diesel happy. Jim | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1523 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.194.80.231 Rating: N/A |
A series 50 in an MCI with Allison will easily run 10MPG. Acceleration of course depends on conversion style ( slate floors and granite counter top and 400G of black water) might be slower to 70mph. FF | ||
| Jack Campbell (Blue_goose)
Registered Member Username: Blue_goose Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 71.101.166.212  Rating: |
Here we are again, with lots of info that is mostly not first hand. I am on my third year with a 50 in my Eagle. The power is now set at 375hp and runs great. I will not ever see the 375 hp that it is set for, but it sure will use most of it on the hills. I know DD will not let you put the ECM to anything above 320 but it can be done. My Eagle: series 50 with 740 and 3.36 My sons MCI 102A3: series 50 with world and 4.10 I change both of these over one 3 years ago and the MCI 2 years ago. I don't think you will ever see 10 MPG, but my Eagle gets 7.5 and the MCI about 8.5 MPG Would I do it again. YES Jack | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1115 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
I just sold a 350hp 50 series with a B400 from a Eagle as I said on the other post it was removed for lack of power and was replaced with C-13 according to the hand held 6.3 mpg it is hard to hide the true fuel mileage on a electronic engine,a series 60 475 hp will get about the same mileage as 50 series 350 hp in 30,000+ bus,the C13 is getting 5.8 mpg in the Eagle but he is 1 happy camper with the setup. I put the Pro Link on a lot of the 10 mpg+ engines according to the owners that were 6 to 7 lol (Message edited by luvrbus on May 15, 2011) | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1225 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 184.212.203.186  Rating: N/A |
Clifford, you might want to get your pro link re-calibrated, or byy a new one! LoL | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1117 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
LMAO Ace I have a friend that his 8v92 DDEC IV blew and a ouffit in Oregon convinced him to install a ISM Cummins 450 hp at the tune of 36,000 bucks his 8v92 was getting 7+ and we check his new engine 5.3 big improvement wouldn't you say lol A 60 series is the way to go if you are going to do a upgrade MHO good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on May 15, 2011) (Message edited by luvrbus on May 15, 2011) | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 98.28.100.21  Rating: N/A |
Most of what you see dripping from a two stroke detroit is actually not from a leaking gasket but from the slobber drains. These drains allow unburnt fuel to drain from the air box around the sleeves. The dripping will be worse when the engine has worn rings as the crankcase oil will migrate around the pistons and spill out into the air box. It is also common to see crankcase vapors condense and migrate out from the oil fill. As stated in another post any engine can leak oil as seals and gaskets get old this adding to the normal drips from a two stroke | ||
| JC Alacoque (Jc_alacoque)
Registered Member Username: Jc_alacoque Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.34.166.7 Rating: N/A |
The 7 speed Eaton/Fuller on the S60 in the '95 D3 I used to drive for the hockey team has a really low 1st gear. It will start up a cliff at iddle. 7th at 65mph is about 1500rpm IIRC. And there are enough gears to keep it in the 1200 to 1800rpm sweet spot where the torque is. The clutch will last a life time if not abused. I alvays started in first gear, unless from a rolling stop. A good,solid drive train if you like shifting gears. Oh, and those S60 came with a Webasto for engine pre-heat. You could heat the cabin with it too. JC | ||
| John Wooldridge (Moovin_on)
Registered Member Username: Moovin_on Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 166.250.38.210 Rating: N/A |
More info on my bus. It is pretty light (29000 lbs) 3.73 rear, 10spd Eaton w .75 overdrive. My mileage is correct; derived mathematically, not from a gauge. We tow a 3400 lb Subaru Forester. Tires are 11R24.5. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1524 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.194.80.231 Rating: N/A |
A well set up DD 2 stroke will give about 16 hp for every gallon burned. A very modern 4 stroke (usually on a ship), electronic injection , 30,000 psi fuel system and operating at exactally the right load and RPM may get 22 hp, some even 24!. Real world , a Ser: 50 might crank out 20 hp/gal, IF it too is operated well loaded at the right RPM,(today its 1200-1300 rpm for 80,000lb trucks). The biggest problem with engine swops is the up grade usually adds big HP , that does get used. While the new engine IS more efficient , if the coach now runs up hill at 65 instead of 40 , there IS a cost in fuel, that the difference between 16 and 20 will not cover. Also not observing the requirement to change out the rear axle to match the engine will cause a modern engine to operate very inefficiently. That old DD 2100rpm at 75 mph , is unacceptable. OTR , (over the road) trucks today are specking a 2.64 rear axle , and a tranny with no OD. Sraight thru costs less in power losses. Dual rear axles (both driven)are less popular as a lifting axle can carry the same weight loaded , and is more efficient lifted when the load is light, saves on tolls&tires too. The big truck Mfg. are working their buts off to get a 10mpg truck. I wish them luck , as many of the ideas will work on bus campers, tho the lack of miles on the usual camper makes items like Wide Singles , out of the question. FF | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1119 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
Most series 50 with the B400 with a 0.65 overdrive don't get your mileage 8 is about the most I have saw with the Pro Link | ||
| Don Fairchild (Don_fairchild)
Registered Member Username: Don_fairchild Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 99.30.65.76 Rating: N/A |
fred you are wrong, A well set up turbo two-stroke will get 20-21 hp per gal burned even a well set up natural will get 18-19 hp per gal. from personal experance I would not own a 50'S engine. What a piece of crap engine. Don | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1120 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
Whoa Donald did you not read that is a million mile engine LOL | ||
| John Wooldridge (Moovin_on)
Registered Member Username: Moovin_on Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 166.250.38.201 Rating: N/A |
Would you guys mind sharing what experiences you have had that makes you so negative on the S50? As for the prolink, I have a silverleaf setup that reads the same data as the prolink reads, and it just showed me 10.2 on a 150 mile trip. Towing the car. I drive 55, maybe that is the difference. | ||
| Jack Campbell (Blue_goose)
Registered Member Username: Blue_goose Post Number: 151 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 71.101.166.212 Rating: N/A |
Don if you are going to make such a statment you need to back it up with a few facts. There are those that would say the same about a Ford. Some would say the same thing that had never driven one. I think that I drive more RV's than most any 10 people on the net. Last week I drove 5 different coaches. 3 new ones and 2 used. In the last 5 years I have put almost 300,000 miles on motorhomes. Some of the trips are short and some are across the country, Florida to Washington. I HAVEN'T DRIVEN ANYTHING THAT WAS OVER 24 FT THAT GOT 10 MPG. I have to charge for the fuel that is burned so I check every trip. In my own coach I started with a 8v71 then put in a 8v92. After 6 years and 80,000 miles with the 8v92 and it's heating problems I can say what a piece of crap that was. Don't think I have ever heard the 50 series was a million mile engine. Don't know why you would check for fuel milage with a prolink. There are lots of things that will make it incorrect. When I changed the HP of my 50 series the prolink tells me that I am getting 2 more miles to the gal and I know that isn't so. So far I have put less than 25,000 on the series 50 in my Eagle. By record keeping not the computer I am getting 7.8 MPG. The engine had about 80,000 miles showing on the ECM when in the city bus. I haven't used any oil and had no problems with the engine. I will say it again, would I do it again YES. Jack | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1121 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
Don's is from working on the 50's mine is from owning 6 of the 50's never had one last for long,the 11.1 series 60 with the standard 350 hp is buy far the better engine and yes I have owned those also.If you like the 50 series and it serves you well good. A friend of mine was VP of Stewart and Stevenson he was the one that installed the 50 series for Greyhound years back and those engines didn't last he told me they all were replaced before the warranty ran out. Lot's of law suits over the 50 series diesel and the natural gas engines so they had to go.FWIW I made DD remove 2 from my BoMag Recyclers and install 6v92 engines I could not afford the down time with 50 series on a piece of equipment good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on May 16, 2011) | ||
| John Wooldridge (Moovin_on)
Registered Member Username: Moovin_on Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 166.250.38.201 Rating: N/A |
Aren't the MC12s with the S50 still in commercial service with Greyhound? I know they have excessed out at least some of the 12s w 6v92s, but haven't heard about any of them with S50s being excessed. You can't get a S60 in a MCI 7,8,or 9 without serious surgery on the body. Too long and too tall. The s50 is a relatively straightforward repower. My engine is set at 315 HP and is from a Freightliner FL. It is a 1994 model, so is pre EGR. | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 285 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 75.195.187.11  Rating: N/A |
(You can't get a S60 in a MCI 7,8,or 9 without serious surgery on the body.) Bernie did. . . http://www.bernhardbus.com/60_series_mc9.html (Message edited by ednj on May 16, 2011) | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1813 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20  Rating: N/A |
Jim - The transit property that I retired from had 30 Gillig Phantoms: 10 had 6V92TAC/HT748 powertrains. 10 had L10/ZF engine/trans combos. 10 had S-50/B500s in the tail. As you know, transit buses spend a LOT of time idling - stop, go, stop, go, all day long. The two-stroke 6Vs were the smoothest all thru the power range, and interestingly, much less fatiguing for the drivers over an eight-hour shift. The S-50s shook & rattled the whole bus at idle, but smoothed out above 10 - 15 mph. The L10 Cummins rattled somewhat at idle, but not as much as the four-banger 50. Smoothed out much faster, too, and was least effected acceleration-wise between a full or empty busload. In case you aren't aware, ALL inline four-cylinder engines vibrate at various rpm. The larger the displacement, the greater the vibration. Has to do with the secondary dynamic imbalance induced by the difference in piston speeds between approaching TDC and BDC. Up to about 2.4L in most engines, it's fairly tolerable with decent motor mounts. Above that displacement, gas or diesel, balance shafts rotating at twice crankshaft speed have to be used to tame the shaking. The only four-cylinder engines that are vibration-free are the flat-fours, as used by early VWs, Porsche and today, Subaru in the auto world. Lycoming and Continental build flat fours and sixes for light aircraft use, and have for a long time. In-line and flat six cylinder engines are inherently balanced from the get-go. V6s, OTOH, depending on whether the block is a 60 or 90-degree angle between the banks, may be inherently balanced (60s), or may require off-setting the crank throws for smoothness (90s). So, based on my experience in the transit world, I would opt for an inline six like the L10, M11 or ISL, especially the latter two for a 40-foot coach. (IIRC, the M11/ISL will fit in an MC-9 w/o too much bodywork.) FWIW & HTH. . .  PS: Found this interesting commentary about piston engines you might find worthwhile reading: http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/torsional_excitation_from_piston_engines.htm (Message edited by rjlong on May 17, 2011) | ||
| John Wooldridge (Moovin_on)
Registered Member Username: Moovin_on Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 166.250.38.201 Rating: N/A |
I would say the Bernhard conversion involved some pretty serious surgery! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1525 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.192.0.87 Rating: N/A |
"fred you are wrong, A well set up turbo two-stroke will get 20-21 hp per gal burned even a well set up natural will get 18-19 hp per gal." Even on Canadian 5 quart gallons , the numbers you quote do not agree with DD and their inhouse engineers. From the manufactures charts the fuel usage of a 671ti at max is 18.65 HP/gal/hr. And this is a peak at steady RPM and optimum load not a realistic number for driving on a highway. The biggest looser with a the old 2 strokes is they are very load sensitive, run much below 60% of what the engine was built for and the efficiency drops really fast. Not so with the more modern 4 strokes. FF | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
My gut feeling is that there is nobody that knows more about the old 2 strokes than don fairchild, his engineering shop in bakersfield california is about the only one that can make the old detroits meet the california emissions, now if he could only park his truck lol. | ||
| Don Fairchild (Don_fairchild)
Registered Member Username: Don_fairchild Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 99.104.174.173 Rating: N/A |
Fred, what is the page or performance curve # you are taking this info from. You have used a 6-71TI, is that a marine engine. If so they have a diffrent fuel curve because they are always under some load as long as they are in gear. As you know the higher the rpm the harder the wheel's dig into the water, unlike an industrial or automotive engine. Danny boy, I just sent you a pm. How is Allice's wonder land commimg along. Wher are you guy's going to be in late june early July Don Don | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
How do I find my pm's lol, I sent you an email (Message edited by cody on May 19, 2011) | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 507 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Jim It rained today, and decided it would be good idea to clean my desk. One of the things at the top of the pile was the paperwork that I referenced to in my post above. In looking at the data of all six artics, I am finding that the S50 went further than the 6v92's There were 3 each with 692 and 748 transmissions and the other three had the s50 with B500. Two out of three of both series of engines were replaced, but the s50's went about 50k miles further than the 692. 330 verses 283k miles. None of 748's were replaced but one b500 at 323, testifying to the ruggedness of the 748 which has been mentioned on this board before. This is real world data under very heavy duty conditions. The above posts were my 3 cents worth,since Les allready had put in his 2 cents, so this will have to be my 4 cents worth. And the pile on my desk has not shrunk by very much. Joe. |
