| Author | Message | ||
| Randall Hays (69.4.195.73)
Rating: N/A |
Has anybody ever done any spot welding on bus siding instead of using rivits? | ||
| TWO DOGS (67.209.132.27) Rating: N/A |
either rivit or pop rivit it | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.117.139.135)
Rating: N/A |
Welds don't stand up well to the flexing the skin will do going down the road. | ||
| Randall Hays (69.4.195.206)
Rating: N/A |
I am not talking about spotwelding in just a few places, I would be doing the welds in shorter intervals than the pop rivit's are placed on the skin. also I will be using 1 3/4 by 4 inch steel with X braceing to support the bus. Just trying to find out if it will work ok? | ||
| randy humburg (Rands5302) (65.56.221.156)
Rating: N/A |
bus has to flex welding will not let that happen | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.44.103)
Rating: N/A |
Rivets, or if u want smooth skin, Sikaflex or similar bonding agent. Spot welding does not work. Aside from the fact that it does not allow the necessary flexing as has been said, have u considered what your finished product will look like after you have pulled it and stretched and buckled it at every weld point. I saw it tried w/18 ga, against all advice; same guy now has riveted aluminum skin after he spent several weeks grinding and cleaning up his framing, not to mention some trips to the salvage yard to dispose of all that 18ga sheet steel. | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (198.81.26.45)
Rating: N/A |
I believe any competent welder or metal fabricator will advise against attemping to spot weld the siding. Brian | ||
| Adame (129.82.229.195) Rating: N/A |
I visited the Neoplan factory a couple of years ago and watched the assembly process. The siding was clamped to one end of the bus and stretched with a simple winch. Then a couple of guys spot welded the sheet on. The welds were placed very close together, maybe an inch apart along each horizontal member. They kept a constant tension on the sheet as they went along. The spot welders they used were not the typical clamp type. These had a single contact and the forging force was applied directly by the weldor by leaning into the weld. These were strong little guys. They were clearly building a stiff structure. This body construction wasn't designed to articulate around the welds. I think I'd advise against trying this for a few reasons. | ||
| Randall Hays (69.4.195.237)
Rating: N/A |
OK folks I got the message, thanks, now just which kind of Sikaflex is the best since they have about a billion products (ok slight over blown) :-) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.140)
Rating: N/A |
Check the archives for product, number and who to talk with......  RCB '64 CROWN Supercoach (HWC) | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.57.160)
Rating: N/A |
Adame: My Neoplan was re-skinned at the factory 3 yrs. ago. Only welded as u say along the horizontal members, so that effectively is top & bottom. Bonded w/adhesive on vertical and diagonal members. Some type of butyl rubber type adhesive. Tough stuff, window frames installed w/same stuff and were they a bear to cut out. They must buy it by the tanker truck load, because it is thick in places. Squeeze out build-ups of 1" thick in places and sticks to everything they use to build a bus. | ||
| NEO/Russ (64.24.178.45) Rating: N/A |
It's nice that we have so many experts on here that know all about engineered structural members. "bus has to flex welding will not let that happen" "I believe any competent welder or metal fabricator will advise against attemping to spot weld the siding" I have an '81 Neoplan double decker with 260k on it that ran off road and tore up front sheetmetal and frame. I'm replacing and using zip gun to cut spot welds off damaged areas. About every 3/4" - 1" and they hold. And this chassis is so stiff that if I jack the right front corner the left comes off the ground with it. I've seen rusted Neoplans with 850k that were still stiff and I took apart a 48' Neoplan 4 axle KSC bus that was rusted and when I had the carcus towed away after cutting off front pair of steering axles and tag what was left still wouldn't twist. I'm not saying you don't have a point for an novice to spot on a few skins with welds every 2" over welded in tubes that aren't designed in, but done right THIS WORKS! And like Adame says, replacement by the same factory is done different than original, but still welded. | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (69.34.195.205) Rating: N/A |
Well, Russ, since you apparently are an expert on engineered structural members, perhaps you could explain why some OEM's chose to use rivets in the first place? Certainly, some manufacturers use spot welding to attach their sheetmetal. Still, as Adame and Jmax clearly explained, Neoplan uses quite a sophisticated system... your sucess in replacing panels on your bus is commendable, and it may even last as long as the original system would. Yet, I don't believe that was the issue... as I understood it, the issue is taking a siding panel that is intended to be riveted, and instead spot welding it in place. I'm not saying, you as an experienced welder, couldn't replace panels that were once spot welded with panels that are now zip welded into place. What I am saying is that it is not advisable to try and spot weld a panel that was meant to be riveted in place... Two completely incompatible attachment systems AND... I believe any competent welder or metal fabricator would agree. Brian | ||
| NEO/Russ (64.24.179.40) Rating: N/A |
I agree, welding (spot, stitch or complete) on a structure that was not designed to spread the loads could cause problems such as stress risers and failure next to the modified area. That was a point I was trying to make, but re-reading my response I can see that I wasn't as clear as I should have been. All chassis are designed to have an amount of torsional rigidity. The responsible engineer makes this determination based upon the application, the terrain, greatly upon the type of suspension and the loads carried. Solid axles, unstressed baggage areas and large window areas do not require as stiff a chassis and rivits or adhesive would be a logical choice. Very stiff chassis that use independent suspensions (i.e. Neoplans) can use welding as a proven means of fabrication. Basically my point was for readers not to condemn welding for ALL applications, as was being inferred. As with so many items in conversion, the builder needs to know the reasons why something may, or may not work for them. | ||
| Jayjay (205.188.209.8) Rating: N/A |
Well Brian, Russ might not be...but I am,...and I have done it! I have extensive construction experience in structural members, and I'm a certified welder, and I have certified in several nuclear facilities. (The most stringent testing procedures in the U.S.A.) I just spent the last 9 months in Las Vegas,NV welding all of the siding, and more, on a raised/stretched '05 Eagle. The President of the Eagle Owners Ass'n also lives near there and his Eagle is done the same way. B&B Bus Conversions does theirs that way too. Most OEM's years ago used riveting because it is cheap and easy to do. Aluminum skin over a steel frame is also part of the reason to use rivets. Good welds need proper metal preparation and skillful operation of the equipment. ALL new buses (regardless of manufacturer) are of welded/composite/adhesive construction.) No one rivets a bus together anymore, and haven't for at least 6 years. It is a viable, strong, ascetically pleasing way to build a bus or a Freightliner, or an ocean liner. They even weld airplanes nowadays, instead of rivets! I even have equipment to weld PVC, CPVC water pipe together, instead of using cement or glue! How many of you who said "no", have ever tried it? I've done it (several times) and my recommendation to Randall is to "Yes...do it" Cheers...JJ | ||
| Gus Haag (Mrbus) (205.188.209.8)
Rating: N/A |
Hey JJ, You sound like the guy who worked in the bus shop for us, who said he could weld anything from a broken heart to the crack of dawn, and make it stick. Never saw him attempt the broken heart, but like you, he surely could weld. Hang in there. Gus Haag | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.160.215.107) Rating: N/A |
JJ, I think it is obvious to one and all that your skill is extraordinary. It seems that you COULD weld the crack of dawn... and Tony Orlando too, if you put a mind to it! But realistically, the average Joe is not going to have anywhere near your qualifications. Do you really advocate spot welding for panels that were previously riveted? Did you spot weld the Eagle you mentioned? I think Russ says it best "...welding (spot, stitch or complete) on a structure that was not designed to spread the loads could cause problems such as stress risers and failure next to the modified area." There is the potential to have pieces of siding falling off as the coach cruises down the road! Brian | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.160.215.107) Rating: N/A |
Hey JJ, you didn't know I'm in Vegas? I'd have loved to come by and check out that Eagle. Brian | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (204.248.119.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi Brian, If there is enough flexing between the bus framework and the skin to destroy spot welds, wouldn't that also cause rivit failure or enlarging of the rivit holes in the skin so that you would have failure there also? Looking at the sides of our 42 year old former Greyhound 4106 with most likely over a million miles on it, I don't see that that has happened. Also, looking at our Prevost Le Mirage XL with just under 900,000 miles on it, with different type construction, I don't see any loose rivits either. Could it be that these busses are rivited simply because that dissimilar metals don't lend themselves to welding or for ease of panel replacement? I don't know the answer, I am just throwing this out for consideration. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| madbrit (67.136.96.46) Rating: N/A |
"It seems that you COULD weld the crack of dawn... and Tony Orlando too, if you put a mind to it!" Actually, there were 2 "Dawns" with Tony, but the challenge would be to weld up the crack where the sun shines out of.......... LOL. | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.160.215.107) Rating: N/A |
I had thought of dissimilar metals as well Sam, but I believe the simple answer is that riveting is inherently more forgiving of torsional stressing. And that is not to say that welding can't be used to create very strong structures. Brian | ||
| Telestar Emery (142.59.209.189)
Rating: N/A |
Every uni-constructed vehicle is spot welded or welded. Every non uni-constructed vehicle is bolted or riveted. The riveted panels are "not" an integral part of the uni-construction. The main reason for the riveting is for ease of pannel replacement and cost! Cheers, Emery | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.160.215.107) Rating: N/A |
Emery, I'm thinking you are probably right, ease of panel replacement is a strong incentive to use rivets. Funny thing about my coach the frame is integral to the coach body and the body/frame is all welded construction AND I'm pretty sure it is considered to be unit construction... but the side panels are all riveted... Brian | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.160.215.107) Rating: N/A |
Damn, I just reread your post again Emery, forget the last part of my previous post, my eyes saw what you said, my brain didn't decipher it till I re-read it. Brian | ||
| Telestar Emery (142.59.209.189)
Rating: N/A |
LOL! Hi Brian, I have made a couple of posts in the hopes of being helpfull. In some of my posts I have miss-spelled some words and the punctuation doesn't come out right some time. So, some of them are hard to read and comprehend as I don't use a spell cheeker oops! checker! You could take a uni-constructed unit, remove all the skin pannels, and weather permitting put a million miles on it. Assumming someone wanted to do that. Take care Brian, and God bless ALL! Emery | ||
| Jayjay (64.12.113.46) Rating: N/A |
Brian, it doesn't take a lot of skill to use a spot welder. That is a real upside to them. Clean metal, and lots of pressure, and keep the head square to the work face. The Eagle was done with a combination of spots and rosettes. The rosettes and square tube framing were done with a Miller 251 Mig (digital), and TriMox Gas. Siding was 16 guage PaintLok, and the 14 ft. slide was done with parts from a motorhome. 4 point hyd. jack system. The 8V71/Allison got dumped and a 441 Cummins with an Eaton-Fuller Road Ranger got stuffed in the back. It'll squall the tires in low!!! Weld spacing was from 1 1/2 to 3 inches. I also worked on a Mann over in Blue Diamond, just off S.R. 159 on the way to Pahrump. Properly done spot welds are as strong or stronger than rivets, and they both stretch and separate in a like manner. I agree that ease of panel replacement is part of the reason to use rivets. I wish I had known you were in 'Vegas. Actually, I lived on Moser Dr. in Henderson, just off Boulder and Sunset. Hal (?), the President of the Eagle Ass'n also lives in Henderson, and has a most gorgeous ($22,000.00) paint job. Hey Telstar...no one cares about your spelling, were just glad to have you on "'Board" Stick with us. Cheers...JJ | ||
| John Rigby (24.174.233.93)
Rating: N/A |
JJ I lost your e-mail. Please e-mail me at johns4104s@yahoo.com Thanks John |