| Author | Message | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.87.158)
Rating: N/A |
Once again, in another thread, this time on the wiring issues, I hear this warning about the home converter being sued because he sold a vehicle that was not built to within code. I really cannot see this happening unless the converter has told the buyer it was a professional job and conforms to all relevant codes and even sticks a "borrowed" RVIA sticker on it. If this sue thing was true, what about all the hot rods and custom vehicles being bought and sold, you don't hear of someone buying an even mildly modified car and suing because the previous owner had changed it from stock, so why with a bus conversion? How many times do we read of the guy who sells that rust free bus on Ebay, and when it gets there, it is rotten. Does the buyer sue, most often not, partly because it is too expensive to sue an individual in another State and partly, they know they should have really gone and looked before buying. There are mainly honest sellers but also many crocks too. If you had changed the roof a/c and it later leaked onto the new owner's prized Chinese rug, would you expect to be sued? If the new microwave was too heavy for the cabinet built for the old one and eventually it fell, causing physical or bodily damage, would you expect to be sued?..... No of course you would not. Same as if you buy a used car and something fails because the previous owner meddled with it. This is the risk you take buying a used item with no warranty or guarantee. This is why most of us word the Bill of Sale with things like: "Sold as seen, tried, tested and approved, no warranties or guarantees implied or given." You can add other things such as stating that the purchasers have been informed and are aware of the fact that this vehicle has been constructed by an amateur and even though this construction was carried out using what was considered the best products for the relevant purposes, this vehicle may not neccessarily confirm to any Federal or State construction codes. There are lots of different ways to word this disclaimer and you could do well to have it worded by an attorney if you are that worried about being sued. Don't forget to have the purchaser sign it and even have it notarized and have it written on the same page as the rest of the Bill of Sale, so to prove purchase, they would have to produce this signed statement of awareness. I am taking the option that a lot of you are bound to have done, and that is to photograph everything I do, especially that which will be behind walls, so that if and when I come to sell the conversion, I can show the guy what I had done. Then, if he buys it, he will have been warned. Let the buyer beware. Peter. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.139)
Rating: N/A |
From a recent email to RTS BusNuts: I've been through this "RVIA Standards" question before and the facts are RVIA is a voluntary association of RV manufacturers. In other words, the RV manufacturer joins RVIA and promises to abide by their standards-- if their vehicles are found to be non-compliant, they are booted out. Unlike, say, housing codes, as self-converters of buses we are not subject to inspection and regulation by anyone. However, if you sell your conversion and it is unsafe a lawyer might make a damage suit for your negligence should someone be injured, but then again, you are not a manufacturer of motorhomes for the general public so your liability would be less. But I am sure everyone *wants* to build something safe. http://www.rvia.org/media/CVNews/p0212.htm or http://www.rvia.org | ||
| Nick Russell (66.82.9.18)
Rating: N/A |
Unfortuatly, in this day and age, you can be sued for anything. I can sue you because your posts upset me and cause me emotional distress. I can sue the fellow in the next bus becuase he glared at me when I started my generator under his open window. Can I collect? Probably not, but I can still waste a lot of your time and money in the process. I owned small town weekly and daily newspapers for many years and was sued several times. One was because I printed a story about our high school principal who was busted for selling drugs on campus. (I thought it was a newsworthy story!) He insisted I made it impossible for him to get a fair trial. Another was the son of a fellow who ran down two highway workers in a construction zone. The driver was Joe Smith Sr. and the son was Joe Smith Jr. (not the real names, so you Joe Smiths leave me alone!) I identified the driver as Joe Sr., gave his address, age, and the name of his business. Son still claimed I damaged his reputation. Another time, two high school kids got in a fight in front of a grocery store, and one of them got knocked into our newspaper coin vending rack, breaking the plexiglass front and cutting his ear. His parents sued me for his hospital bill! In none of these cases did the plaintiffs win the suits, but my attorney still got paid by me, I still wasted a lot of time in court, and though I counter-sued for attorney fees, none of them ever paid me a cent. So yes, you can be sued, and even if you win, you will lose to some extent. | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.117.139.135)
Rating: N/A |
It all goes back to the guy/woman who sued Mickey Dees for having hot coffee. | ||
| TWO DOGS (67.251.50.33) Rating: N/A |
Don't sell it !! lets all make a pact...to be burried in our bus :0 =:0  | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.117.139.135)
Rating: N/A |
I don't know about being burried in mine 2D but I'm planing on burring it when the time comes. I wanted one for too long to sell her, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.87.158)
Rating: N/A |
Yes, I know one can sue someone for anything, but the point I am trying to make is that no matter how you build your conversion or what you use, it would be very hard to make any sort of liability case actually stick as long as you sell it as an amateur conversion. As long as you are not deceiving the buyer, it is up to them to either get an appraisal, and/or have an inspection. Just like buying a house. Peter. | ||
| Jayjay (205.188.209.8) Rating: N/A |
Peter, I realize I am the one who raised this spectre, and as a generalization, you are correct about the amateur conversion. You most would most likely be sued, only when a serious injury or death occurs, and the injured party can prove negligence or malicious intent to defraud. Intentionally suborning accepted standards for workmanship or material quality would qualify. Many Experimental Aircraft Association builder/pilots destroy their hand-built airplanes, rather than face the prospect of litigation down the road in a wrongful death suit. I have been an expert witness in two cases of this type, and it is truly a sad thing. Very acrimonious and ugly. I sold a man an obviously used, damaged, salvageable plane. He flew it for a month, then decided he wanted his money back. I told him I wasn't WalMart, and hung up. He sued for $250,000.00 (plane value was $15K) and it took 4 years and $9,000.00 to walk out of a court room and hold my head up and say " See folks, the jury agreed I wasn't a crook!!! But no one was around to hear...or care if they did. Like I said in the other post..."it's a sobering thought." Perhaps making it a mausoleum on wheels is a viable alternative after all. Cheers...JJ | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.57.160)
Rating: N/A |
When I look at all the work yet to do, I already feel buried in it, especially about 1/2 hr. before quiting time for the day. Let em sue; I can prove I put all my money into the damn bus, so what the hell is he going to get? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (66.229.97.200)
Rating: N/A |
Peter - I have heard that in England, if I sue you over something, and then lose in court, I not only have to pay my attorney's fees, but I also have to pay your attorney's fees and the court costs. Is this correct? RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| FAST FRED (65.150.247.97) Rating: N/A |
Sounds like a great IDEA , but with Trial Lawyers running for the White House , and almost all members of congeress liars for hire , I doubt it could happen Here! The Trial Liars spend more cash on political purchases than even the Teachers Union !! Will be interesting to see if the homebrewer that built DML gets chased by the insurance co for incompetence. FAST FRED | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.87.158)
Rating: N/A |
RJ, I am not sure as I fortunately had little dealings with the Court system. But I do know that costs are awarded, by the Judge at the hearing and I think that as it is the Court that awards them, it is pretty much said that whomever has to pay, will pay or be in contempt of Court. The whole idea is that it stops the individual from bringing a frivilous lawsuit without having legal counsel and then owing nothing if they loose, but it costing the other party a fortune to defend themselves as they have an attorney. Hence there are few private lawsuits in England. Peter. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.52.14)
Rating: N/A |
Fact is, we have relatively few "successful"lawsuits here also. The guidelines for "Standing" can be stringent in certain States and jurisdictions which eliminate a lot of frivilous ones. Of those making it to trial calendar, abt. 85% are settled prior to trial. And yes, losers do bear costs in most circumstances and jurisdictions. In a Nation of 330 million people, there is bound to be the exception, and that gets sensationalized way out of proportion to it occurence in everyday events. For example, the infamous Mickey D boiling coffee suit; everybody seems to ignore the fact that internal memos that Mickey Ds tried to conceal and suppress revealed that they were well aware of the danger they presented and they ignored it in favor of making sure the coffee was hot and figured their pockets were deep enough to prevent retribution for it. They rolled the dice and lost. | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I'll be darned - I agree completely with Fred! I have absolutely no use for attorneys! I think that a law degree should ban someone from being a candidate for political office for life! Talk about conflict of interest! I currently work for attorneys. I am part of the legal department. Our attorneys are the corporate types that have to defend us from outsiders that sue us. In a large company, this amounts to quite a lot. They have a new philosophy about law suits - we will settle the ones where we are responsible for something and the plantiff is willing to settle for reasonable amounts (actual losses MOL), and we fight the rest tooth and nail - even if attorneys cost more than the original suit amount (it does happen - a lot). This makes us an unappealing target and cuts down on the suits. Disney used that concept and it is a rare situation where Disney gets sued and someone collects (compared to the exposure). I was one that agreed with JayJay about the suit for how we build a coach. If someone were seriously injured or died in a coach that we build, you can bet that somewhere, there is an attorney that would sue you. The cost to defend yourself will cost you dearly. Juries will award damages based on a comparitive responsibility decision and it is virtually impossible to prove something didn't exist. (I.E. in the DML loss, how can the original convertor prove that there was no defect). All the plaintiff has to prove is that a defect existed, and it was PROBABLY the builders fault that it existed. They can come up with some creative reasoning. One idea to isolate yourself somewhat is to create a company with, say, yourself and your wife as stock holders. The company owns the coach and is the official convertor for legal purposes. When the coach is finished, you keep the company going (usually less than $100 a year - think of it as insurance) and then, when you sell the coach, the company is selling it. You then disolve the company and pay off the shareholders. Of course, you should obtain legal advice (I am not an attorney) on how this can best be done (so much for a disclaimer). Insurance companies are some of the worst since they will try to recover some of their expenses in paying off a claim. You need to have a bulletproof contract and even then, you are not really protected. Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| john marbury (Jmarbury) (65.100.118.14)
Rating: N/A |
The point is not wheather McD's knew that there coffe was hot. Of course it was hot. The absurdity is that someone can put a cup of, obviouslly, HOT coffee between their leg and when it spills, get over a million $$$. Comes back to the current propensity to sluff off ones own accountability and responsabilty onto someone else. If you can make tons of money in the process, so much the better! CRAZY in my opinion. John | ||
| Dont sue me! (66.238.120.14) Rating: N/A |
Blame the trial lawyers, the court system, and congress. Did you know that the way product liability laws are written if an idiot takes the safety guards off a piece of equipment and hurts himself the manufactuer is still held responsible? Did you know that trial lawyers have the second biggest lobbying force (AARP is first) in congress? Lawyers are getting rich, and we are paying for it. | ||
| John the newbie (206.15.139.45) Rating: N/A |
Grief. You buy something that was misrepresented by the seller and later get hurt... You call the seller and ask for some sort of reimbursement for damages suffered and money lost, due to his misrepresentations. The seller tells you to take a hike... You have no other recourse for some sort of reimbursement, than to take it to court for it's decision regarding the seller's responsibility to reimburse you. A woman burned herself with a cup of coffee with burns that went through layers of her skin, right down to her bone. It sold to her by an establishment that'd been warned many times prior, that their coffee is being pressure-boiled and too dangerous to handle. The establishment ignored the warnings by the various departments of health in various communities. The woman asked for reimbursement for medical bills and the establishment ignored her requests. She went to court and the establishment was found to be negligent. Instead of merely paying her medical bills, the establishment had to pay legal fees, court fees and reimbursement for "pain and suffering", travel time, lost time, etc... | ||
| FAST FRED (65.150.247.7) Rating: N/A |
You failed to note that the "victum" was an old lady that was being taken for a spin in her grandsons new power car. Is hot coffe the problem or, the kid showing off for granny? The kid had no money , McD did , so Mc D got suied. The democrat version of "justice". And we get stuck with lousey coffe! UGH! FAST FRED | ||
| bob--m (68.35.160.48) Rating: N/A |
The McDonald's coffee case is much misunderstood. My buddy was the trial judge. The jury was upset with the attitude of the New York McDonald's execs and hammered them. The judge reduced the verdict the woman who was burned got low six figures not the seven figure verdict. Liability suits are a two edged sword they keep manufacturers on their toes and protect us from bad products but they also create a flock of trial lawyers. If you need one you love him but otherwise you put a bounty on their heads. In my 20 plus years as a lawyer I'd say juries are generally very tight with money awards. Big money usually means big damages. Remember some trial lawyers are also busnuts | ||
| John the Newbie (206.15.136.99) Rating: N/A |
Sorry to disagree and even sorrier to continue off topic, but no cup of coffee purchased by humans to be consumed, should ever be capable of burning through layers of human flesh right down to one's bone. McDonald's was wrong for not heeding health department warnings; they disregarded the safety of their customers, and they were found to be guilty of gross negligence. By the way, as far as I know, the woman has not yet received any payment. McDonald's appealed the decision and amount of award. When people take responsibility for their actions, there isn't any reason to force them into a court. To go back to topic.. I had a short in the AC wiring in our '85 Winnebago Elandan. After a week of searching, I found the romex cable had shorted against the metal grid of the closet outer wall. The manufacturer ran the wire, unprotected, between the closet wall and outer RV wall. Vibration wore a hole through the romex. In our '87 36' Georgie-Boy, the AC wiring didn't short out, but during remodeling, I found three sheetrock screws through the romex casing at three different locations. They used sheetrock screws to hold the underpinnings to the floor structure and managed to pierce the romex. Luckily, the piercing hit only one wire or the other without shorting. Potential danger...? I also found on that same vehicle, that they had used welding cable for the run from the coach battery to the Genset. The welding cable was not designed for continuous exterior use and had deteriorated and shorted in various locations between chassis and floor. Potential danger of fire was greater than with the AC, since the hot lead from the coach battery feeds the genset starter without fusing. The point? Any assumption that a manufacturer can do a better, safer or more thorough job than anyone here on this forum, is folly. I don't think I've read a post yet, where I felt the guy couldn't do better than a manufacturer. We take the time to do it right. I'd feel safer buying a used conversion from anyone here, than a new RV from a well known company. And... that's why I'm looking for a bus! Thanks Fred. Your bus related posts are always very informative and right on target! | ||
| Johnny (63.159.185.62) Rating: N/A |
"Sorry to disagree and even sorrier to continue off topic, but no cup of coffee purchased by humans to be consumed, should ever be capable of burning through layers of human flesh right down to one's bone." I want my coffee about 5 degrees short of boiling. Hotter water=better coffee. My old Farberware percolator (probably not heating as well as it did 20 years ago) makes 175-180 degree coffee, as checked with a thermometer. If it's just hot enough that the lid on the cup is close to melting, that's about right. McD's coffee went from fair to tepid and undrinkable after that asinine suit. | ||
| Jayjay (205.188.209.8) Rating: N/A |
A Ladyfriend of mine is a wheel in ATLA, (The American Trial Lawyers Ass'n) and when I called her about this thread, she said that 82% of all litigation is settled (before trial) for the face value of the insurance policy! ...JJ | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
I can't give this off-track thread up. Like Fred says - its like politics and religion. I agree that someone needs to keep manufacturers honest and so forth, but the cost of doing so has priced so many things we in this country need to impossible high prices. Health care is driven by that as is other insurances. On the other hand, massive limits do deprive those subjected to intentionally bad products. Finding that middle ground is difficult! Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Carroll (68.155.48.187)
Rating: N/A |
Doug, according to a GAO study I read medical malpractice premiums make up less than .58% of total medical cost in this country. If you are going to blame the high cost of medical cost on someone, try starting with the doctors and hospitals. On the other hand most people in this country didn't mind the states suing the tobacco companies with the resulting outrageious awards in those suits. Fast Fred and others try settling directly with the guy who runs into the side of your bus and see where you get. The only reason there are offers for settlements anywhere near what most of us would consider to be reasonable in most cases is the threat of a lawsuit. | ||
| Scott Whitney (69.35.6.233) Rating: N/A |
Can someone please explain just exactly how it is possible to serve coffee in a non-pressurized vessle, such as a cup, any hotter than 212 deg. F.? I can stick my hand into a pot of boiling water, (albeit very briefly), and not get burned. Can't quite see how coffee can burn down to the bone, as it cools off as soon is it is spilled. Sure it hurts like an SOB, and if your wool sweater is soaked in it and not removed, it will continue to burn, but down to the bone? Come on. One a side note (what I heard and may not be true), but the employee who served the coffee was named in the suit too. Their future wages garnered for the rest of their life. You'd have to move to Belize just to hide your income and live a normal life. . . Where is the justice in that? | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
The GAO study does not take into account the whole picture. I know that Doctors pay a bunch higher percentage than that, of their gross income. Certain specialties pay even higher. It also does not take into account uninsured pay-outs (which are substantial) since no insurance company can take that into account of a loss (it isn't their loss or liability). BTW - if you take into consideration the way that the GAO calculates expendatures for things like medical care, it is not just what the end user or insurance company pays the providor, it takes credit for each time money changes hands, as this is a valid economic measurement. As a percentage of gross income, doctors pay 3.2 percent in malpractice insurance ON AVERAGE. Specialties are higher as mentioned. Hospitals are over 5% average. Places like neurosurgery, OB/GYN and Emergency Department (ER) premiums are much much higher. Where is the low insurance costs to counter that? Hospice is low and so is home health care. Now for the indirect and more difficult to determine part - that of how costs are driven by C.Y.A. tactics. A MD is going to test for everything possible, not what is most likely and go from there. They have to create a believable and defensable position in case they get sued. I am getting too far off track. Just look at the bill for your coach insurance and your automobile insurance. The suits are liability for crashes, not bad medicine, but it is still a big chunk of the cost. All comes out the same way - we get to pay it! It makes sense to somebody. My $0.02 Doug St Louis MC9 The GAO reflects an accurate economic picture (MOL) but don't take the numbers at face value - the way they are derived makes the opicture much different. | ||
| FAST FRED (63.234.21.82) Rating: N/A |
The study does not seem to take into account the EXTRA tests , examinations and procedured the doc's take to prevent future law suits. I figgure covering their buts is about 40% of the cost of medicial practice.Perhaps doubble that! FAST FRED |