| Author |
Message |
jake freidenberger (64.91.28.5)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 2:58 am: | |
I am still looking at buses, and have been wondering which diesel is preferred, I want adequate power, without giving up reliability |
jmaxwell (66.42.93.132)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 1:55 am: | |
If I were shopping for a bus again I wouldn't even consider anything with a diesel that was not 4-cycle. Those of us w/detroit 2 cycles are going to get to keep them, but EPA and their state counterparts are going to exact a price for the privelege. If you go to www.busbuys.com you will see that EPA forced the State of NJ to liquidate their fleet of relatively modern 2 cycle DDs in favor of "green" buses. Nobody is going to right out admit that, but if u listened to the confirmation hearings on Christie Whitman, EPA, you would know why ABC has '89 Eagles w/6v92 DDECs for 18k. CA has already effectively outlawed them and is only haggling on what the price of the privelege of keeping them will be! |
Geoff (64.1.253.144)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 12:00 pm: | |
Its not just 2-cycles that are on the hit list-- it is all older diesels. The New-Age diesel engines are cleaner burning, those of use with the older 2 and 4 stroke diesels will have to put catayltic converters and soot mufflers on our rigs (eventualy). |
madbrit (216.67.203.32)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 2:00 pm: | |
There was a lengthy discussion on this matter last year on one of the BBs. It was assessed that the soot traps, etc. would only be required on commercial vehicles and not on privately owned RVs.
If you live in California, who knows what they will do after their fiasco with the 45ft RVs.
I would buy the latest vehicle I could afford or one with a bad motor and install one of the new style motors.
Peter. |
Donald Peter (Don) (172.161.113.253)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 3:08 pm: | |
I think a lot depends on what you plan to do with your bus. We bought our 6-71 powered 4104 a little over a year ago. It was mostly converted by the previous owners and suits us just fine for our "part time" RV lifestyle. We are using it about 6 months out of the year and travelling about 8000 miles/year. Sure, more power would be nice on the hills, but I have other things to spend my money on. I doubt that I'll find myself legislated off the road in my lifetime. -- Don |
jake freidenberger (166.93.105.73)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 11:06 am: | |
Ok... thanks for the input, these boards are great! But.. what diesels are considered 'new'. I dont know much at all about diesels and really appreciate your help.. thanks jake |
RJ Long (24.130.101.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 2:18 am: | |
Well, Jake, let me see if I can really "corn-fuzzle" your synapses:
There are basically three major HD diesel manufacturers found in coaches: Detroit, Cat, and Cummins.
For years, THE bus engine was the "71" series Detroits, from the late thirties thru the early eighties. Built in several configurations, these 2-stroke units are extremely rugged and reliable and practically unbreakable in RV service. The ID nomenclature is quite easy: the first number equals the number of cylinders, the next letter, usually a "V", indicates a "V" block, the number "71" is the cubic inches per cylinder, a "T" means turbocharged, and finally, an "A" means after-cooled. So an 8V71TA is an 8 cylinder, v block, 71 cu/in/cyl, turbocharged and aftercooled. A 6-71 is an in-line six cylinder.
In the late seventies Detroit followed the old hot rodder's adage "When in doubt, bore it out". Although a newer design, the "92" series were based on the 71s, but were 92 cu.in./cyl via a bigger bore - the stroke remained the same.
Being two strokes, the 71 and 92 series are available in both RH and LH rotation, which is something you have to pay attention to when replacing a coach motor. Most "T-drive" coaches use RH rotating powerplants, the "angle-drive" GMCs (and others) use LH ones. If you put a RH in a GM w/o reversing it's rotation, you'll get four speeds in reverse!!
Detroits latest (and, some folk think, the greatest), is the Series 60, a thoroughly modern 4-stroke, electronically-controlled, overhead cam, in-line six-cylinder HD diesel designed for both power, fuel economy, and lower emissions. Introduced in the middle eighties, it has gone on to be one of the most popular engines ever produced, not only in coaches, but in 18-wheelers also. Numerous stories abound about units with over a million miles on them w/o ever even having the main bearings replaced, let alone major engine work. Most are 12.7L motors, and can put out up to 500hp in coach configuration.
The Series 50 is just 2/3s of the S-60: it's a 4-cyl w/ balance shafts that shares most of it's parts with the S-60.
I'm not that familiar w/ the S-30 and S-40 units, but I understand that they were originally International Harvester designs that Detroit now makes under license.
(The new 4-strokes are NOT available in LH rotation, unfortunately. . .)
The 71 and 92 series have reputations for slobbering oil everywhere, which can be true if the unit's not maintained properly. Some wags have compared these Detroits to a male dog - always "marking" his spot when he stops. ;-) This is not an issue with the current engine line.
Caterpiller has been around a long time, mostly known for their construction/farming equipment. You know, the infamous "Caterpiller Tractor"! But they've built engines for on-highway use too, and many truckers swear by them, (some swear AT them, just like they do Detroits. . .) MCI has used Cats, and Cat's 3208 model was very, very common in school buses.
Up until the S-60 came along, the trucker's favorite motor has been Cummins' line of six-cylinder HD diesels. The 220, 250, Big Cam, L10 and M11 are all favorites, with the latter finding it's way into numerous coaches, VanHools in particular among highway models.
I've been out of the industry for a couple of years now, so I'm not that familiar anymore with the individual models in Cat's and Cummins' families. But they're all good motors, with the in-line sixes being the smoothest.
The easiest way to tell if it's a "new" generation motor is to find out if it uses electronic engine controls, rather than manual ones.
As for reliability, any one of these powerplants will outlive you in RV use, IF they're properly maintained and were in good to excellent condition when you bought it. Buy the book! (Pun intended)
All three have websites - good place to browse for info.
Hope this helps, sort of a "Diesel Primer 101"
RJ
PD4106-2784 |
jake freidenberger (Jake) (166.93.108.186)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2001 - 10:35 am: | |
Thanks to all for the info.. you are a great help!! jake |
buslady in stupid Calif (152.163.195.191)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2001 - 8:22 pm: | |
I have known hardly any 671s (the flat version under a Crown) that marked their place, they were properly maintained. They are the most reliable engines I know.
It is inappropriate for the California legislators who are trying to ban good reliable diesels off the roads, they always show a Crown, the SAME clip, on the news when they talk about it...it's obviously a poorly maintained bus. 671s DO NOT spew that much black exhaust out as long it's maintained right! And it's also not true that the fumes get inside the bus. If the bus is working right, this WON'T happen and can't. You can't even OPEN the windows in the back of a Crown.
Buslady |
FAST FRED (63.215.229.150)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2001 - 6:55 am: | |
What the TV folks show is either a very poorly maintained coach , or some fool that stuck huge injectors in the engine hoping for more power , but just screwing the fuel milage and belching "Bucky Balls".
And wearing the engine out at a super fast rate due to oil dilution.
AT least there not installing a BOMB and blowing it up on camera ,as they have repedly done in the past.
Remember the NY Times motto
"all the news that fits"
there libreal left wing template.
FAST FRED |
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