| Author | Message | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 162 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 98.216.80.83  Rating: N/A |
I don't know if I will give you guys enough info to answer the question but here goes. I am going to install 2, 30 lb propane tanks to supply the heater (35k btu )and a 3 burner stove. I have to run black pipe to the location were the heater and the stove are located(within 3' of each other)The question, will 3/4" pipe be enough to supply the two appliances 12' away from the tanks? Or could I possibly use 1/2" pipe? | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1419 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.178.71  Rating: N/A |
Doug 1/2 " will be sufficient for the job. Make sure of all connections don't leak too! Check it once and then do it again. Just for safety! Gomer | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 503 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 208.80.96.147  Rating: N/A |
Doug 1/2" is more then enough. Put a shut off valve for each appliance. That way you can shut off one to work on it and still use the other one. After the shut off valve you can run 3/8" flexible copper to each appliance. Check your codes to make sure you use the correct pipe. Bill | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 333 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 75.247.140.112  Rating: N/A |
Code in California is the same except on the end of the Black pipe you must put a shut off accessible within reach and flexible GAS LINE approved for LPG and Natural gas only. No copper of any kind. Here they put mercaptan in the gas for the rotten egg smell in case you get a leak but they have found it will eventually cause corrosion in the copper. The bay door while traveling must be unlocked and marked with LPG lettering of at least 2 inches in height. Chromie | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1521 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 97.227.200.86  Rating: N/A |
1/2 inch....in my case,copper; shut offs absolute. I have a shutoff at the connection to the tank...1) from tank to rear bulkhead...2) thru the coach, then a third prior to the stove. Just my way.  FWIW RCB | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 163 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 98.216.80.83 Rating: N/A |
Thanks guys,I plan to put a shutoff before I "T" to the two appliances and then use the flexable line to the appliances. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1540 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 75.58.177.204  Rating: N/A |
After the gas leaves the tank , someplace in the feed line , be sure to create a "T" that will allow oil and dirt particles to drop . Propane is a fantastic fuel, but not all that clean,and heaters have small orifices. FF | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1421 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.178.71 Rating: N/A |
FRED I think that natural gas is appropiate at this time? Saves a lot of headaches! LOL Gomer | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1541 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 75.58.177.204 Rating: N/A |
I think that natural gas is appropiate at this time? Saves a lot of headaches! LOL CNG was tried on boats in CA , for stoves, but the limited sources , and tiny BTU makes it a poor choice . Although the boaters thought it was a great idea as its lighter than air. Even the hugely subsidized buses had a hard time with huge rooftop tanks in making a run with out running out of fuel. I have never seen CNG for sale anywhere. I have a Series 50 CNG , purchased to get the bell housing and starter layout , for the VL . It has GM style spark plugs and coil , where an injector would be. Most everything is Ser 50 DIESEL, so it will get filled with diesel and saved should I wear out the donor already in the VL. The donor has about 300,000mi , but now enjoys new main bearings , new injectors and a new water pump, standing empty for 2 years did not go over well with the unit.. FF | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1138 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
Utah has CNG pumps at most stations has had for years only place I ever saw CNG pumps good luck | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 513 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Here in Edmonton there are only a few places for filling CNG. Propane on the other hand enjoyed widespread usage about 20 years ago, buts its popularity has waned, eventhough its current price is about half of regular gasoline. Joe. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1241 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.37.28.23 Rating: N/A |
In my opinion, a suggstion of compressed natural gas is essentially unworkable for several reasons. 1. It liquefies at about -200F, so it can't be transported under its vapor pressure without refrigeration, unlike LPG. 2. Because CNG is Compressed Natural Gas, it has to be in a cylinder designed for 2000 PSI working pressure, to get any capacity at all. 3. Availability, or lack thereof. Propane is available in most campgrounds, as well as the dealers and RV shops. Ever see CNG at a KOA? 4. Ease of filling a cylinder. We all know how much time it takes to fill an LP tank. CNG requires a 2500PSI compressor, and a lot of patience. 5. Last but certainly not least, ALL RV appliances are designed to run on propane. A conversion to methane would require changing the orifices and the regulators in each appliance, then changing the vehicle regulator. Once again, posting on hazardous items such as propane and electricity should only be by those who are well qualified. G | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 295 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Natural Gas in engines produces a tremendous amount of carbon monoxide. Ever see a Natural Gas fork lift used indoors-you won't because the carbon monoxide would kill everyone inside. Current compressed Natural Gas cylinders are at 3,500lbs pressure (like big SCUBA tanks). On trucks, they use 5 cylinders, and have to be replaced in 20 years @ $8,500.00 apiece! With Liquified Natural Gas, the gas is liquified at about 230 degrees F below zero. Even with the thermos like fuel tanks, the fuel is constantly boiling causing a build up in pressure in the tanks. When the tank pressure gets up to 150psi, the safety valve opens and vents the raw gas to the atmosphere (not what I call very green consious) until the pressure is back down around 120psi (you can tell I don't like Natural Gas). Plus in Natural Gas engines, they produce unregulated gases-like Florine, and others. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 296 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
On my chassis mounted propane tank, I have a 12vdc solenoid valve-down stream from the manual turn off valve. Then I can just turn on/off the gas from inside-it mostly stays off. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Jim Sanders (Sandy)
Registered Member Username: Sandy Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 69.199.96.250  Rating: N/A |
Tom I like your idea of a turn off valve(dc) ever had problems with it???? Jim | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 613 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
Jim I used those electronic solenoids when I lived on a sailbaot. They work great and I never had a failure even with it mouted in a saltwater environment. That said if I was away for any amount of time I would turn off the tank valve as a failsafe | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 1544 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.195.74.146 Rating: N/A |
I used those electronic solenoids when I lived on a sailbaot. Unfortunatly many sailboats do not have the room or engineering to run a propane reefer. THe solenoid is fine for a range , but useless if a fridge is used. FF | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1242 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.37.28.23 Rating: N/A |
Tom, I have to disagree with you about emissions. The whole reason so many city bus operations have gone thru the agony of converting to CNG is because of its very low emissions. CNG is far cleaner than propane, gasoline, or diesel. We don't see CNG forklifts because again, the small amount of GNG that can be compressed into a high pressure cylinder. G | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1142 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
I thought pipe sizing on Propane was to match the BTU's needed at a certain pressure ? you guys enlighten me here (Message edited by luvrbus on June 08, 2011) | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Up here we reserve black pipe for natural gas and use almost exclusively copper tubing for the LP lines. Semco, which is our natural gas provider to this area uses black pipe to enter a house from the meter then switches to gas rated pex for the feeder lines, Ferralgas which is our LP provider uses copper tubing to run from the bulk tank in the yard to the regulator on the wall and copper tubing from the regulator to the feeder lines, the copper tubing from the bulk tank which has the initial regulator is buried underground on it's run to the meter on the side of the house. Most of the houses I've seen have 3/8ths copper tubing as the primary line and seems to work well, might seem undersized but has worked well up here for many years and is mainly what the gas providers install. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1143 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
Cody, the reason I asked when I installed my propane fired boilers in the bus I used 3/8 but one thing I did not consider was the operating PSI of the system which was 2 lbs didn't work I had to change to 3/4 to get enough volume It would run 1 boiler but not both (Message edited by luvrbus on June 08, 2011) | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 504 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
When I had propane added to run the shop they just raised the pressure a little to compensate for the long run. They used a regulator at the tank and each appliance had its own regulator. There is 125 feet of 1/2" to the shop and it runs a 100,000 btu furnace with no problem. Bill | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1422 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.178.71 Rating: N/A |
Most of the applications consist of 2 regulators. One at the tank to reduce the pressure from the tank itself and then can be run to the building where the second regulator is installed to bring the pressure down to operating pressures of the equipment. I had both natural and lp gas boilers and it was high pressure to the building and was no more than a3/4 pipe or 1/2 copper. after the 2nd regulator it would go back to a 1 1/2 min and 3". Then the 2nd regulator was adjusted for the pressure needed. Most of our boilers were around 1 million btu's and the biggest was 4.3 million. all the units operated mostly 24/7 because of humidity here in Florida LOL Occasionaly we had the lp tanks[1000 gal each] would freeze because of the draw from them so we just added another tank to accomadate the demand and problems solved. They have a regulator that combines the pressure to operating pressure. That is a 2-stage regulator which is what most rv,grills etc operate with. Residentual apps normally use the 2 regulator system because of the ease of controlling pressures. Gomer | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1144 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
I had Primus boilers cost me 183.00 to find out you could not set the regulator at a higher pressure other than what was spec in the manual LOL. I see where the new propane Aqua/Hot systems are very low pressure good luck | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1243 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.37.28.23 Rating: N/A |
Most natural gas delivery systems run about 50 psi in the street. That pressure will provide about 5 million BTU thru a 1/2 inch pipe to the meter and regulator. Residences and small commercial applications are then reduced to 7 inches of water column, (28+ inches equals 1 pound of pressure.) Some large commercial applications are reduced to 5 PSI at the street meter, and then to 7 inches at the point of use. Propane tank presure varies by temperature, and increases as the tank temperature rises. With two regulators, the tank mounted regulator drops the pressure to 10 psi. This allows a large amount of BTU to be safely carried thru a smaller pipe. The house mounted regulator drops the pressure to 11 inches of water column. All natural gas appliances require 7 inches WC to them, although many have their own internal regulator which drops the burner pressure to 3.5-4.0 inches. Likewise many propane appliances regulate their pressure internally to 10-10.5 inches. BTU CAPACITY IS A FUNCTION OF PRESSURE AND ORIFICE SIZE! INCREASING REGULATOR PRESSURE INCREASES THE BURNER HEAT OUTPUT BEYOND WHAT THE APPLIANCE IS DESIGNED FOR, AND SHOULD NEVER BE DONE! | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 516 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Clifford I had primus boilers. Are those still available and being used? If not, what did you as a substitute? | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1145 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
Joe, they are still available they were bought by ALDE, Aqua/Hot use the Alde boilers and so does Hurricane for their propane fired units good luck | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 106 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: |
The whole skanee house is serviced by 3/8ths inch copper tubing,, the run is from the tank, goes under the house and splits off a couple times, it feeds the kitchen stove, a 30 gallon water heater and the furnace, along with several wall lights that are kept for power outages. Several changes are in the works, we've added a wood/coal stove for heat and are working on solar/wind for electric. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 773 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15  Rating: N/A |
OK ... as long as this thread is, I'm kind of surprised that no mention has been made of flexible/rubber/re-enforced & specialized propane hose/line ... My first time out in the 4106 (THE SportsCar of Coaches), before I hauled out I had the gas man locate & plumb my temporary furnace. He did the whole line from regulator to burner with it, I told him that what he put in , it would become my permanent arrangement. The ID of the line is 1/2 or 5/8 & the length is 25 ft. The wall thickness is 5/16 or 3/8th's. | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 107 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
Jack, I think many of us are victims of our comfort levels, I've always worked with copper tubing with LP gas and am comfortable with the flares and various fittings, I'm slowly accepting the fact that pex makes a fine gas product and used a run of it in our baraga house with natural gas, some time change takes time, in Skanee they hold a church dinner to welcome the newcomers once every 10 years. | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 300 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Quick about Natural Gas trucks. Current 2010 Diesel engines are just a fraction (and a very minute fraction) dirtier then natural gas without all the problems of natural gas. What problems-Natural gas-18,000mi oil change, 36,000mi spark plug change (at $60.00 apiece X 6), burned valves, blown head gaskets, etc. New Detroit DD13 engines-50,000mi oil change, 100,000mi fuel filter change with a couple of Davco's in between. Granted Natural Gas is about $2.30 DEG (Diesel Equivalent Gallons), but they also only get around 4-5mpg, compared to many fleets running local averaging 7.5 with the DD13. It is so bad, we just delivered a street sweeper dump to the city of L.A. and they wanted nothing more to do with Natural Gas. Cummins is working on the 11.9ISX and also a dual fuel 15.0-which should be tremendously expensive with both Natural Gas and Diesel Urea systems. Until they get the infrastructure in place to run natural gas cross country and get larger horsepower engines, natural gas is only going to be for local in city use. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1146 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.60.241 Rating: N/A |
Pex style gas piping has been around for years since the early 80's,most of the mains supplying the house are made of plastic from 1/2 inch up to 8 inch.Just some places don't allow it the yellow or orange stuff is good lol I won't use anything but the fusion type fitting with it makes me feel safer | ||
| Dan Clishe (Cody)
Registered Member Username: Cody Post Number: 108 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 206.51.120.170 Rating: N/A |
I used the yellow, I know it's been around for a while but it takes an old dog like me a while to kinda see if it's going to stick it out for the long term like copper lol. Kinda like the church supper coming up to welcome the newcomers, only held every 10 years. (one of the computers I use still has 98SE on it and works pretty good.) | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 595 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121  Rating: N/A |
I use flexible rubber propane lines from tank to 1/2 black pipe for the run aft then flex lines again to appliances. I have seen copper in RV but i wouldent use it because of vibration | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1244 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.37.28.23 Rating: N/A |
Cody, I would suggest you not post obvious bulding code violations! The Uniform Plumbing Code was written for a reason. A lot of research was put into pipe sizing before the tables were published. By greatly undersizing long runs which you have done, the pressure drop becomes large enough that the flame may go out on the last appliance on the line when a larger appliance is turned on near the regulator. Many top burners on kitchen stoves, and wall lights don't have safety valves, so when the flame goes out, and pressure returns, raw gas is released. Your furnace is on a thermostat, so it may start while you are outside, or have left for the store. If a flame failure occurs while you are gone, then the thermostat is satisfied and the furnace's large draw stops, which puts full pressure back to the burner that lost its flame, a few minutes later an explosion occurs! G |
