| Author |
Message |
Joe-NY (67.31.2.104)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 9:18 pm: | |
Hi Folks,
I am in a band and we are going on a national tour in late spring. I am interested in a 4104 since they seem to be the most affordable coach for us. Assuming it is in good condition. Is this a good bus for long distance travel? We will be driving this bus from New York to L.A. and back. Can a bus of this age handle that kind of mileage? Thank You, in advance for any info anyone can give us. |
J.L.Vickers (209.34.31.141)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 9:33 pm: | |
As much as I like the PD-4104's.
And I have owned 2 of them in years past.
I now own a P8M4905A conversion.
It might be better to look for a later model GMC P8M4905A or a MC-9 there are some MC-9's on ebay starting out at at less than $10,000.00.
Now this is not to say that a PD-4104 would not make the west coast and get you back home.
The parts for a MC-9 are every where and a lot of bus shops know how to work on them.
Just a thought on my part.
JLV |
John Feld (Deacon) (204.184.224.42)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:35 pm: | |
I agree with JL on this. Unless the 4104 has had an engine transplant your going to be slow in the hills, maxed out at around 65 MPH, and one in really good shape will cast as much or more than a MCI.
Now the 4106 is a great running coach, but its also higher because many converters want them. Lots of power and 75 MPH is no problem.
There are several band busses around at fair prices, already set up to tour and sleep several.
John 4104 & 4106 |
Ian Giffin (Admin) (64.228.43.62)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:46 pm: | |
Hi Joe,
You may want to have a chat with John and Hilary Spellings at www.busforsale.com. They have a ton of experience with bands and band transportation.
These former clients have no connection to BNO now, but have my personal endorsement.
Regards,
Ian Giffin
www.busnut.com |
Phil Dumpster (24.16.243.37)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 2:47 pm: | |
As far as a bus being able to go across the country and back, it's not a function of age. It's a function of condition.
Any vehicle that hasn't been maintained will have a greater chance of breaking down on the road. Doesn't matter if it's a 4104, an MC9 or a Volkswagen.
The 4104 was made at a time when construction of the interstate highway system was just getting started and as such won't blast down the highway with abandon like many later coaches will. However, it will handle the 2 lane highways with ease. As long as you're willing to keep it down to 55-60MPH and resist the urge to drive with your foot to the floor flat out, it will take you whever there is pavement, and even some places where there isn't pavement. |
Doug (68.83.48.237)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 8:39 pm: | |
I don't agree on the 04 not being able to keep up with traffic.
Mine has made two coast to coast trips towing my F-150 and I only got passed on eisenhauer pass, vail pass and the grapevine as well as donner pass
I doubt any MC-9 would have been passing me any of those hills. Perhaps on my butt but not passing.......or maybe making the pass over a few miles.
I know of MC-9's that sold for 20k that end up needing 15k in work and parts......also know of 4104's that sold for 2000 that should be junked.
It all depends on when and where you want you $$ to go.
keep in mind that when a bus company sells a bus...it is generally in need of major maint..... they tend to keep even an old bus untill it's life starts to run out...... heck it's a free revenue producer.
the MC-9 is good for parts availability though |
John Rigby (24.174.233.93)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 9:34 pm: | |
Phil
Why would you say 55-60 mph Max??
John |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 9:46 pm: | |
It is a buyers market...with the sheer numbers of MC-9's 96A3's and 102A3's coming on the market prices have dropped precipitously on MC-9's.
I got a great deal on my 96A3, but a little over a year later, I see the average price of MC-9's has dropped thousands of dollars, with some under 10K!
I think the vast majority of GM buses are great, even handsome coaches, and if someone has cared for it through-out it's life, it will obviously go for years more, but unless the it's a killer deal on a cream-puff you are still looking a decades old piece of machinery that was never intended to run at the speeds common on todays roads.
The MC-9, with almost 10,000 built, for years was the most produced road coach of all time, and there is a huge store of parts out there for it, Some small operators are still using them!
Also, the MC-9, is a modern coach originally designed with an in-service lifespan of 3 million miles/30 years with a chassis that is 90 percent stainless steel and aluminium below the beltline. Even the oldest MC-9's are shy of 30 years, and very probably many are shy of 3 million miles.
The numbers of MC-9's for sale that are reasonably priced and in great condition is certainly in the hundreds of units, if not thousands.
A 4104, equal in condition, for an equal amount of money, is still a much older machine that will not truly go highway speed unless modified.
One last thing to consider, especially for a band, an MC-9 has over 300 cubic feet of combined storage in it's bays.
Brian |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (66.229.97.200)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 2:49 am: | |
Joe - NY:
Many good posts here helping to answer your question, and I'm going to throw in a simple thought:
Remember the children's fable about the tortoise and the hare? Well, the 4104 is the good, old, reliable tortoise!!
Good Luck with your search. . .
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
FAST FRED (63.233.189.183)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 5:44 am: | |
Most 4104 that I have known have had little hassles with cruising at 60- 65 all day long.
The fellows that put in V-731 go slow due to the gears , the fellows with VS trannies (and the right guts) can easily go 80+ on the flats , but get slowed down on big hills.
IF (always a key word) the 4104 has had good maint and the chasis is sound , It would be a far better choice than a MCI.
As a Post showed , Eagles are rust buckets and need new frames every decade or so,or major major love.
Unfortulnatly MCI have a similar problem with the rail under the windows rusting very early in their lives.
Not a corrosion problem from salt , just a hassle from the constant leaking from the windows into the wall cavity.
Even the 102's need replacing about 30 ft of tubing on both sides under the windows , and frequently whats under the rail is gone too.
This would be a very expensive job to have done , although the cost of 100 ft of tubing is minor.
All coaches have their flaws , but some will have a very hard time getting to 35 years old , others are almost 50 and have far fewer structural hassles.
Parts avilablity for normal maint is a big nothing. The engine & running gear is all off the shelf , mostly the dame as in any DD vehicle, as near as your truck parts place.
Body parts can be a hassle but IBC and others recreate any body part, for not that much more than a new hunk from a mfg would cost.
Rubbers for windows is EZ , the only exception being small stuff thats no longer made. Again EZ (but not so cheap) as my adventure in having the 4104 glass holding rubber recreated.
IF a 4104 power train blew , the quick & cheap answer would be to get a scrap Flex transit and upgrade everything about 50 years , for less than the cost of a rebuild kit for the old drive package.
Go with what looks good to you,
FAST FRED |
Doug (68.82.242.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 8:53 am: | |
My 04 will cruise at 72mph...... 04's are not really prone to rust...even ones that are not taken care of because there is hardly any steel in them
MC-9's unless they have fresh rebuilds sell for 4-8 in the bus industry world....... the conversion market pays a premium in most cases.
Most MC-9's unless from the SW. are prone to rust in some expensive spots.
on the other hand......parts are numerous.
everyone will know what a 9 is.
a beat up 9 will get worked on quicker than a beat up 04. some shops will turn away old junk but not new junk.
you get an extra 5 feet and ? cu ft of cargo area
if you get an auto you'll be lucky to get 6 mpg
both have pro's and cons. a good 04 will be running long after your nine shits the bed so to speak.....if only from corrosion issues alone
as for parts.....I know of only a handfull of things I can't get for my 04 and have at any location in NA in 48 hours if needed...... those I can't get can be fabricated if need be.
Doug 4104 4261
over 3.5 million miles, with 3 owners from new..... |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 9:52 am: | |
Actually Fred, window rust CAN be a problem in some MCI's, but you make it sound like every MCI coach has this problem, and that is simply not the case.
My 96A3 has none, ZIP, nada, NOTHING in any window opening OR anywhere in the panels under the windows, and I've looked carefuly for it.
Perhaps it depends on WHO owned it, or maybe if it was garaged... It's possible it's a function of WHERE it spent most of it's service life. I really couldn't say for sure, I just know not all MC-9's 96A3's and 102A3's have a problem there.
AND...the good news is: it is very easy to check for by adding, "Open windows check for corrosion" to a buyers check list.
It is obvious to me that we are talking about a band that wants to purchase a coach that is both affordable to buy and economical to run... with the ability to make it's way from one coast to the other and back, I realy feel that the MC-9 is the weapon of choice.
Many MC-9's are still in service and many more have only recently left service, where, in most cases, routine maintence is performed as a matter of policy.
There might actually be a 4104 or two still in service somewhere, but the vast majority left service decades ago, and some have not recieved very much maintenance since!
Don't get me wrong, a 4104 is a fine machine that makes a really neat conversion, BUT, especially for this particular circumstance, the MC-9 is a tough choice to beat.
Brian |
Doug (68.82.242.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
Brian I agree, the ( is a good and probably the best choice for this application.....
Lets not lead the guy into beleiving all MC-9's are good.....most are not....at least to my standards........guy that parks next to me has a buffalo that I would't buy for parts if I needed them...... he is happy with it and payed 8 grand I think |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 7:26 pm: | |
Doug, you are right, certainly some MC-9s have had the last useful life wrung out of them and are now good only for parts.
Thankfully, as an old cowboy I knew used to say, "there is a S**T-POT full of 'em" to choose from.
But there is a preliminary check that I learned can save you some time when inspecting an MC-9 96A3 or 102A3 ...If you stand alongside the coach at the front or rear and sight along the panels under the windows on both sides they should be straight as an arrow, almost impossibly straight.
If there is buckling in those panels you can be pretty sure there is a rust problem under the windows.
Brian |
John Rigby (24.174.233.93)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 8:04 pm: | |
Brian
A good friend of mine, who happens to be well versed in purchasing and converting many buses over the past 30 years. purchased a low milage 300k MC9, one owner, been used locally around Orlando, no rest room.Strieght sides.He was ready to paint, curious, he removed a side panel.THATS WHERE THE RUST HIDES AND YOU CANT SEE IT. He ended up removing all the side panels. Same rust down both sides , ended up welding in new tubing,or what ever stucture was there.
It came with a 6v92turbo. great on the flats around florida. Stays behind an 04 on the hills. Espesially with the added weight of the convesion.
He changed it out to a 8v92turbo.
The MC9 is a good bus but it has its pitfalls.
John
PS I criuse at 74 with my 4104, the grehound MC12,S can pass me on the hills with there series 50,s but with there govener set at 72, I CATCH THEM ON THE FLATS |
Phil Dumpster (24.16.243.37)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 10:32 pm: | |
John, the reason why I say 55-60 is because the engine should not be run up against the governor for extended periods of time, because of fuel economy and engine longevity concerns.
As Fred mentioned, an 04 will do 60 to 65 all day. You can drive it with your foot glued to the floor, but it's not recommended.
At 55-65, you'll easily top 10 miles per gallon in a good running 04. Given the cost of diesel and the predictions that it's going to climb up to $2.50 a gallon this summer, burning less of it is a good thing.
Besides, it makes it easier to see the country while driving.
For what it's worth, I rarely ever drive my 57 MPH transit faster than 52-53 MPH for those reasons. After I put in some taller gears, I probably won't regularly drive it faster than 60.
Doesn't Orlando have an environment conducive to rusting steel? |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 12:37 am: | |
John, I didn't remove the outer panels, I removed the inner panels on my coach, and there was no rust present at the windows or under them...
Being a semi-tropical climate, I'd expect Orlando to have a great deal of humidity, and therefore condensation.
Brian |
BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.212.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 12:44 am: | |
And therefore rust... there had to be some reason your friend got curious about what was under those panels.
Brian |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (66.229.97.200)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 1:33 am: | |
Phil commented: "John, the reason why I say 55-60 is because the engine should not be run up against the governor for extended periods of time, because of fuel economy and engine longevity concerns.
As Fred mentioned, an 04 will do 60 to 65 all day. You can drive it with your foot glued to the floor, but it's not recommended."
*************************************************
Phil, I'd agree that "it's not recommended", but back in the days when the 4104s pounded the pavement in revenue service, they were run right up against the governor all day, every day, especially those in line-haul service where a schedule had to be maintained.
Did it hurt them? Well, Greyhound used to get between 400,000 - 500,000 miles on a powertrain before overhauls back then, so I guess it didn't hurt them too much.
In RV service, that old 6-71, if in good condition, will probably outlast us!!
FWIW,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
FAST FRED (65.154.176.153)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 5:35 am: | |
"I'd agree that "it's not recommended","
Not recomended by who?
The gov limits the RPM to a limit low enough for the engine to be operated all day long.
As a gen set most were run at 1800 for thousands of hours , and most wise RV folks will use 1950RPM , where the fuel use is not excessive.
NO question that the LOAD on the engine should not be full against the gov 100% of the time , but most hills have a top , and full power is far different from max rpm.
Many 4104 folks ENJOY being on the high side of 10MPG at 70+mph.
FAST FRED |
John Rigby (65.112.227.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 1:40 pm: | |
I spoke to RDW today he is getting 11+MPG in his 4104 with his new 671taddec at 65-70mph over 2000 mile run.
I would think you would experience more rust up north east with the rain wind snow and salt. BUT what do I know. I guess the climate is more prone to rust in Florida and along the Gulf Coast.
John |
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