| Author | Message | ||
| Jack_In_KC (65.26.0.37)
Rating: |
I have just about finalized installation and wiring for my new generator (wrico 15 kw) and inverters (SW4024 x2). Having never done this before (fun isn’t it?), the design changed as installation proceeded. It will soon be time to “flip the switch” and see if it all works. I will appreciate any comments or suggestions on my design. It is not too late to make changes. I certainly can not afford to fry an inverter! Anyone with electrical know-how, please check my design at http://www.geocities.com/jack66202/index.html thanks in advance for all help, Jack | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.47)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Jack. Forgive me, I'm going from memory, the bus and the books are 110 miles away... My 4024 is protected by a 250 amp DC circuit breaker/disconnect that came with it in a Trace package deal. I'm thinking 100 amp DC protection may be too small and will blow unneccessarily. And I seem to have 60 amps in my head as maximum for the AC circuits, but as they say, I may be wrong. As long as your documentation for the devices you have are compatible with your protection choices.... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| bruce king (24.19.15.231)
Rating: N/A |
When you are arranging the batteries and fuses, it is useful to have a non-fused 24 volt access so you can jump from your house batteries to the chassis batteries in case of chassis battery failure. This is esp. useful in very cold weather, or if you leave the batteries connected by accident and they're dead. | ||
| joe shelton (68.237.129.196) Rating: N/A |
go to amplepower.com. they have some of the best info. thier booklets don't cost much and there are example system drawings on site... for free! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Jack, Your diagram would not load for me. However, I have some comments based on the written description: 1. If you are using the SW4024, there is no point in getting a Link 2000, as these devices will not interface. Get the Link 20 instead -- it does the battery monitoring without the inverter controls that you can't use. If you want to run a remote for the SW4024s, you will need to use the Trace SWRC remote. 2. 100A is definitely too small for your DC fuse. You will need 350A at least if you want to use the full 8000 watt surge ability of one SW4024, and double that for two. I suspect you will need to go with 2x4/0 cables as well. 3. Max output breaker size for the SW4024 is 60A and is mandatory per Trace. I would also observe that you realy mean 120 and 240 where you've written 110 and 220, as those are the correct specs for the 4024 (and standard for US AC power systems -- 110 is what you get between hot and neutral on a 208-volt three phase system, which is not what you have). Lastly, I suggest 24 volt lighting in preference to 12 volt, as it will be more efficient with your proposed 24-volt system. -Sean | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (204.248.119.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi Sean, Is it realy necessary to fuse the cable fron the batteries to the inverter? If there is a malfunction in the inverter would a 350 amp fuse protect it? From my welding experience, I know you can do some very serious welding and start a very serious fire and not blow a 350 amp fuse, so what purpose does the fuse serve? And, of those who have a fuse between the batteries and the inverter has anyone had to replace one? Other than providing a convenient disconnect is it worthwhile? Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Sam, The fuse is required from a safety standpoint. It protects against a variety of potential problems, not just inverter malfunctions. That being said, if your inverter does cause an overcurrent, but you have not fused it, your warranty will be void -- Xantrex requires the fuses on all its products. My policy is to fuse every circuit from the batteries, with the only exception being the main cables to engine alternator and starter. This, BTW, corresponds to USCG requirements for marine applications. In any case, if he does use a fuse, 100A is too small. -Sean | ||
| FAST FRED (65.154.176.242) Rating: N/A |
A "Class T" fuse and holder will stop the ampacity of a dead short . And could prevent a fire. Found in many boat or alt energy catalogues. FAST FRED | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.22) Rating: N/A |
The inverter manual should specify fuse size and cable size. I use a T400 (or maybe it is 350, I forget) & 4/0 cable for my Heart 3KW. Yes, I have blown the fuse, they will blow. (and cost $50 to replace!) I blew my fuse when my 8V71 starter was ailing and dragging a pole shoe and I was combining house and engine batteries to throw more juice at it. (BTW, this technique got me running when I would have been stranded otherwise) Since repairing the starter, engine starts fine on my regular pair of 8Ds and I no longer combine the banks in order to start. Fuse has not blown since. But nice to have as catastrophe protection. Scott | ||
| Jim Wilke (12.46.52.74) Rating: N/A |
From the system you are designing, I believe you will have a really nice bus. The only thing I would throw at you is that in the last 7 years my family has been travelling around, most of the campgrounds offer 30A/120V hookups. Some of them offer 50A/240V also, but only on a fraction of their spaces. (50A sites COST MORE too!) A few have had only 20A/120V sites either due to our late arrival. When we visit our friends, most offer us 20 or 30A/120V power. We have that at our place for our bus & others. From this experience (that I think many will agree on) I have decided to build our new project as a 120V coach. I will use as much DC lighting as reasonable so something will work even if (when) we have a genset/inverter/system failure. Doing this will allow me to use any land connection from 20A & up. If I'm just there overnight, the 20A will allow battery charging or light AC power usage in moderate climates. Most campgrounds will not let you run your genset continuously and if you could, you will be screwed if the genset fails. You will then have to find a 50A/240V plug while your system/inverters run at a dead loss. (not for long) Also, most gensets require an oil/filter change at 200 hours & 15KW burns .8 gal/hour at half load. Lots of $ & maintenance & noise. I will use only 120V appliances & air conditioners. I'm wiring the bus with a 240V type main panel & 50A/240V shore cord, but will supply 120V to it when 240 is not available by means of the various adaptors that let you plug your 50A cord into 30A/120 or even 20A/120 outlets. The genset will be connected for 120VAC so that I don't have to worry about balancing the legs like you do with 240V. The genset terminals at the transfer switch will be jumpered so that both sides of the panel will be supplied. (We will obviously be using the correct sized wiring, etc to do this.) All three poles (two hot & neutral) will be switched at the transfer switch. The bond wire will be connected to all points. Thus the genset, inverter & shore power neutrals will only be connected to the load when each power producing device is on line. The inverter will be used as a power generating device (we will not utilize it's internal transfer switch) thus simplifying the wiring. Think of it as another genset that runs on DC instead of "D sel". I know this will get some interesting comments but it's based on my travelling/camping experience. We dry camp about 50% of the time. Have seen many stupid glitches, most happen in cold, rainy O'dark-thirty! have learned to have each system independant and very simple for troubleshooting & jury rigging. If you have 2 or 3 ways of doing a task, a breakdown is an inconvenience intead of a ruined trip. This is why we use 2 way powered refers & two methods of heating. Hope this perspective helps. Jim-Bob | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (67.136.98.73)
Rating: N/A |
Jim-Bob, Perfect, about the only thing I plan differently is to have the plug from the coach system and row of sockets, one from each power source, instead of any changeover switches. Definately a reliable simple system. Thanks for sharing. Peter. | ||
| FAST FRED (65.154.177.188) Rating: N/A |
" one from each power source, instead of any changeover switches. " KISS , works for me, FAST FRED | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.65.65)
Rating: N/A |
Sam Sperbeck, Bill Hawkins of the GMC busnuts on Yahoo has popped one and maybe two. I recall that he wasn't very happy about it. Among other things, he was paying $45 each for replacements, IIRC. We have two inverters in different applications and we keep spare fuses for this reason. We have 2000 VA inverters and the fuses are 300 amp class T, as spec'ed by Heart. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (204.248.119.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi Tom, I am now convinced that if I can ever afford an inverter I will install a fuse at the battery bank. My thought was that there is no fuse on the starting circuit why would you need a fuse on the house circuit, you and Sean have convinced me of the need. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (204.248.119.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi Tom, I am now convinced that if I can ever afford an inverter I will install a fuse at the battery bank. My thought was that there is no fuse on the starting circuit why would you need a fuse on the house circuit, you and Sean have convinced me of the need. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| Jack_In_KC (65.26.0.37)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks to all for your comments and observations. Bus warrior, I have changed the DC fuse to a 400Amp trace package deal. Another approach would be to put a 250 Amp fuse on each SW4024 converter. I will change the AC breakers to 60 amp as per suggestions made. I will be taking out the hockey pluck lights because of bad karma about fire hazard. Any replacement lights will be 120 except for led rope lights in the cabinets and under the toe kick. Jim-Bob thanks for the input. My thinking (not always a good idea) on shorelines is to use the power sharing ability in the SW4024 to limit the amount drawn from the shoreline. I have done this yet, but you can program the SW4024 to draw at most 20 amps (120v) from the shoreline. As long as the air conditioners or electric stove are not on, this should be enough, don’t you think? In the preceding scenario, the inverter will charge the batteries as required as long as the load is less than 20 amps. When the load exceeds 20 amps the inverter will draw from the batteries until the battery voltage drops to a pre-determined level at which time the inverter will start the generator to supplement the shore line and recharge the batteries. I will be using two SW4024s, configured as “series stacked”. Following is from Trace Manual: (http://www.aaasolar.com/ProdLit/Trace/SWManual.pdf): When two inverters are operating in a “series stacked” configuration (120/240 VAC); each inverter operates as a separate inverter. One inverter can be battery charging with the excess power from one half of the generator while the other inverter is supporting the generator by operating in parallel to support a heavy 120 VAC load on that half of the system. This allows greater utilization of limited system capacity . . . BTW, Xanax er Xantrex has pulled the above linked manual from their web site and replaced it with a less threatening and simpler manual. I hope they still send the whole text with the inverters. If the 20AMP 120VAC is supplied to both inverters, one inverter will have to “phase change” to create the 240VAC combined output. If the 120 VAC is only supplied to one inverter then that inverter will battery charge with any excess capacity; this output will be input to the other inverter. I don’t know which of these is better but I have the name of a person at Xantrex to ask. Thanks again for the comments. Jack Gregg Jack In KC |
