| Author | Message | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.240  Rating: N/A |
I was just looking at what was all needed to install an additional cooler in the side door of the bus. Is there any reason why I can't take the oil from the remote oil filter outlet and send it to the new cooler then return the oil from the new cooler to the location where the line from the remote filter was hooked to?? This hook up looks too simple I would be bascially removing one 24 inch long 1" line and installing the cooler in between. When things look this simple I thought I'd better ask.  | ||
| Sam Summers (Greyghost)
Registered Member Username: Greyghost Post Number: 51 Registered: 4-2011 Posted From: 72.35.193.222  Rating: N/A |
I removed a 24" Northern Pike out of Turtleford Lake one time, dang teeth bite me tho, wasn't that easy. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1249 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.37.28.23 Rating: N/A |
Go for it! (Seriously) | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 509 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
Paso Just make sure the cooler and lines you use can withstand 300psi or more and watch the restriction of the cooler you pick. Lines need to withstand 300 degrees F also. Bill | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 709 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.15.199.165  Rating: N/A |
Just installed mine this week. Went from output of torque converter to the oil/air cooler, to the oil/water cooler, to the transmission pan. You can put a cooler from the filter but it will not be nearly as effective as putting it on the output.  | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1341 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 75.121.201.199  Rating: N/A |
I would think that going to the oil/air cooler first would result in the oil being reheated in the oil/water cooler which is bound to be hotter than air? I don't know this but it seems logical, mine is plumbed the opposite. "You can put a cooler from the filter but it will not be nearly as effective as putting it on the output. " Why? Not disputing your word, just wondering. | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 710 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.15.199.165 Rating: N/A |
I am not able to give a full detailed answer at this time, but I will hit the high spots. The transmission likes to run in a temperature range which is within the normal temp of the engine. Keeping the fluid in that range is ideal. I added my air cooler because the oil/water cooler is not large enough to shed the heat generated on long hard pulls causing the transmission oil temps to rise over time. Not to mention it helps remove some of the strain on the engine's cooling system. I know it seem counterproductive to put the cooler in the front of the radiator but after talking to the Engineers at Hayden at some length it is where it needs to go and possibly I might get to explain it in a future post. It has been awhile since I talked to Allison so I don't remember all of the details, but the filter only flows a fraction of the oil that the torque converter does and it's oil path is different. Again I hope to do a better job in the future but I am trying to wrap up these repairs so I can hit the road. I will let everyone know how this works out, but I decided not to reinvent the wheel and just listen to the experts on this. They are in business to fix problems and make customers happy. We have unique situations that some experimentation might return a better result, but I don't have the interest, time, or money to do so. The children are growing up too fast!! (Message edited by barn owl on July 01, 2011) | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.240 Rating: N/A |
Larry You mention "that the filter only flows a fraction of the oil". With 1" hoses and fittings I can't see that it only flows a fraction of the oil. I would think all the oil flows thru the filter for it to be effective. I looked in my Allison book and I can't tell for sure. Just why would GM use such big fittings ??. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1822 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20  Rating: N/A |
Laryn - As you know, I sorta questioned the wisdom of putting the oil cooler in front of the main radiator. Since that comment, I've been checking out the Gilligs, NovaBus and New Flyers in our local transit fleet, and they ALL have oil coolers in front of the main radiators. And this is in an operating environment where it's often over 100 degrees ambient air temp, so it must work. Thus, I stand corrected! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 711 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.15.199.165 Rating: N/A |
In a rush so short answer. V730 requires coolers to run 20gpm. I don't think a filter will do that. The hoses are so close to each other why use the filter lines? I just did what the engineers said to do. Made it easy for me. HTH | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 712 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.15.199.165 Rating: N/A |
RJ, I have looked at everything, cars, trucks etc. The radiator is always last for whatever reason. (Message edited by barn owl on July 04, 2011) | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1458 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.153  Rating: N/A |
RJ After looking at this post and answers, it seem that the ambient temp would be the best way instead of having the heat after the radiator which would be above 16o at most times. so 100 is better than that Gomer | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1255 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.37.28.23 Rating: N/A |
Gotta think about it a little bit! The water in the radiator is cooled as it goes down, so at the outlet, its way below 160. Thats why oil-to-water coolers work as well as they do. The oil to air cooler should go in line first, to reduce the load on the oil to water cooler. The oil-to-air cooler should be mounted as high on the radiator as it can be, so the hot air coming out of it going into the radiator encounters the hottest water at the top of the radiator. Fairly "warm" air blowing across "hot" water in a radiator still picks up heat. If the cooler is low, the water in the radiator will already have cooled to where it won't pick up any heat from the hot oil cooler air. Now a question: Since the trans runs OK now, wouldn't it run better by cooling the filtered oil by an air cooler in addition to the larger flow water cooler? G | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 184 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.240 Rating: |
I was forced to read the service manual On Page 2.5 of the 1982 V730 D manual it says The oil is drawn from the sump thru the fine meshed filter. The pump delivers it's entire output through the external filter ( supplied by customer ) The filter specs call for a maximum of 3 psi pressure diferential @ ( in -out ) 15 gallons per minute AC PF 132 W Reading the "stall" temps the converter max is 300 degrees and the sump temp is 250 degrees Max The normal sump temp is stated to be 200-225 degrees F I know from other Hyd. applications normal is 100 degress above outside temperatures (ambient ) Oil tempeture checks are selected by the manufacturer and is either the sump or the converter-out circuit sooooooo... I would be cooling 250 degree oil when cooling after the filter compared to 275- 300 degree oil cooling from the converter out line The 15 gpm seems consistant to the 20 gpm cooler.. most select However on page 3.8 it says do not exceed 225 degrees on the stall test if the line does not have an temperature gauge. so I guess it is a good , better, best scenerio better to have a cooler than not Thanks all !! | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 713 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.15.199.165 Rating: N/A |
Still curious as to why use the filter vs. converter. Is it easier to do it that way with your application? Also, if I read it right, then it is better to cool the hotter oil and do it as fast as possible to lesson oxidation? | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 185 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.240 Rating: N/A |
Hi Larry yes you are exactly right the only reason I am considering using the filter outlet port is the current factory location is in such a convienant location to where I was thinking of mounting the cooler The factory brackets and ease of access is the only reason. As you mentioned in a earlier post the fittings are so close together at the transmission (the converter out port) vs the Filter why chose. The hoses end up, and out of the way being higher on the transmission and visable for easy inspection. Cooling the hotter oil seems logical but with the two temps being so close I'm not sure I would see any differance. Don't forget I live in the frozen Tundra with the occasional south bound trips | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 304 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Hayden makes the special 1" (I believe) coolers just for the Allisons. Like others, I installed my auxiliary cooler with thermostatically controlled electric fan on the right engine door with added vents. It is plumbed to take the hot oil, go through the air/oil auxiliary cooler first, then through the air/water shell cooler then back to the transmission. I also installed a thermostat on the cooler on the output side so if the oil got over 180 degrees coming out of the cooler the fan would turn on. Also have a manual switch in the engine compartment to turn on the fan continuously if needed. The reasoning behind this is to take the strain off the radiator with the auxiliary cooler, but not to loose the warming effect of the engine run shell cooler. From experimentation, I'm running the fan drawing air from the engine compartment going through the cooler to the outside. This sounds in reverse until you realize that the big radiator fan creates so much pressure, the little cooler fan can't over come the pressure. Even the hot engine compartment air is cooler then the transmission oil-so it works well. Good Luck, TomC | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 605 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121  Rating: N/A |
ever since the repowwer i have wanted to do exactly what tom has done as that seems to be the great setup, except the air flow direction. Now i have to think harder on this one. My air comes in from the roof and straight out thru the radiator out the back so i think air out thru the aux cooler from eng comp. is the way to go for mine. Tom C now you have to post a list of switches and more info as punishment for making me have to think harder. | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph7)
Registered Member Username: Ralph7 Post Number: 198 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 75.195.109.117 Rating: |
David, I bought adjustable temp control fan switches from Summit. The range 180-240F, taped the bulb to the inlet metal pipe then insulated it, to keep it accurate. The part #31147, it has a 20Amp rating, and not hi $$.... I also installed a manual overide switch plus an indicator light. Tells me if fans are runnnnnn.. | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 606 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 74.212.37.169 Rating: N/A |
Ralph, i might have to make a run down towards your place and check that out. thanks for the info. I am near Towonda Pa. planning on going to the NEGTG in august at Port Jervis. |
