| Author | Message | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 97.120.186.11  Rating: N/A |
Hello everyone, I have a few questions... Part 1, The Exhaust: Why are some of the 4104's a single exhaust while others are a dual exhaust? Which is better? How does the sound compare? After seeing the parts breakdown; they both have twin mufflers; the single exhaust uses a single manifold and two mufflers inline; the dual exhaust uses twin manifolds and a single muffler for each side. So I wonder why the the change in design? Noise (the single would strike me as having a lower noise level? Performance (I would think there would be a slight gain with the duals)? Weight? Cost? Parts availability? Any more thoughts on the pro's and con's? Mine has the single, by the way. Part 2, The Front Nose Badge/Emblem: I've seen various photos of Greyhounds with blank plates, red GM badges, silver GM badges and embossed Greyhound's. Plus a few that I suspect are custom. Any rhyme or reason (like year of production) or is one free to pick whatever suits their fancy? I would love to have one with the Greyhound embossed on it, if I can find one. Anyone want to sell one? Thanks! Rick | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1488 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.153  Rating: N/A |
I have duals on mine and they are just for looks. Originally they were twins coming out beside each other. After rusting away,We took it to a pipe bending shop and had them install the duals and they are good looking even if I supervised LOL About part 2 Go on E-bay if all else fails. First check our classified here on BNO Gomer | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 652 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 75.139.119.128  Rating: N/A |
Ours has dual exhaust too. On the original two valve per cylinder 170 HP engine it probably didn't matter much. But if yours has (or will be) converted to 4 valve, 238 HP or greater, you would want it to breath as well as possible. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1836 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20  Rating: N/A |
Rick - RE: Breastplate Emblems Coaches ordered by Greyhound from GM all received the running dog emblem as a breastplate. Many were removed when 'Hound sold the coach to second-tier operators, but others survived. They show up now and then on eBay and other places, but are becoming rare. The red GM breastplate, like the one in the photo below, was the OEM unit for all non-Greyhound coaches. Most have deteriorated so badly by now that owners often remove them. There is a fellow who made some vinyl decal duplicates for awhile, don't know if they're still available, but can find out. The sliver GM letters that you have on the front of your coach in the photo are the same OEM letters used on the 4106s. They were never on the '04s from the factory. FWIW & HTH. . .   | ||
| Jim Sanders (Sandy)
Registered Member Username: Sandy Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2011 Posted From: 69.199.96.250  Rating: N/A |
My Flx. Runninl a 6/92 with turbo has single exhaust about 6in though. That should be big enough????? LOL Jim | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 97.120.186.11 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the input so far everyone; I love this group! I don't know if mine has a 2 or 4 valve head yet. It does have Jake's though I noticed that the single exhaust pipe is fairly good sized compaired to the dual exhaust pipe size, but I'm sure running 6 cylinders through a pair of mufflers in series is going to be more restrictive than 3 cylinders flowing through one muffler; I suspect it's quiter too. RJ, I thought that's where they might have been borrowed from. I sure would love to find that dog. I guess I have a new quest! I'd also like to find one set of seats for the front row of the bus too. I'd like to restore the hand rails and the little wall that was to the left as you walk up the stairs as you enter the bus and the ones around the driver's area. I wish they would have stopped the bus conversion at the "line".  I want to keep the seat, but change the color to blue; remove the blue fuzz all around the front area and try to restore this area to as close to original as I can. I passed on several busses because the door mech. had been removed. I was very tickled when I found this one. For the most part very unmolested. No oil leaks either :0) I checked the oil after our test drive and it was so clean, I had to double check that it was showing on the stick! I'm not used to that with the diesels I've worked on in the past.  I want to redo the paint as well in a Greyhound color scheme. Any one know of any good Greyhound books worth buying? One with lot's of photos? Thanks! | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 621 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 99.122.63.218  Rating: N/A |
Rick, to the best of my limited knowledge jakes require a four valve head Tim | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 643 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 98.20.56.244  Rating: N/A |
Tim, there are Jakes for 2 valve heads, but they don't use a bridge, they use a different method to control the exhaust valves. | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1244 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 66.87.107.58  Rating: N/A |
I have a dog emblem! Ought to be worth quite a bit if they are becoming rare! Ace | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1201 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.48.167 Rating: N/A |
Last time I was at Teds place in Ca he had boxes of of the Gm and Hound emblems you have Ted's number RJ good luck | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 841 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15  Rating: N/A |
I have a "Entry Wall" for a 4106 available.... (I'll have to do some digging to find the "Drivers Wall")  | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 653 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 63.162.202.200 Rating: N/A |
Interestingly, those "walls" were called "modesty panels". | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 607 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.46.196.121  Rating: N/A |
Probably to insure modesty compliance since the ladies wore dresses back in the day! | ||
| bruce ohlson (0le)
Registered Member Username: 0le Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2008 Posted From: 71.142.76.114 Rating: N/A |
Rick, When I was associated with a fleet that ran several 4104s, mechanics called the dual exhaust system the "dual-manifold, dual-muffler, dual-headache." Buses with the dual exhaust, 4-valve head, and fan clutch got about 10% better fuel economy. ~0le | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 97.120.186.11 Rating: N/A |
Thanks everyone! I figure as soon as I can I'll pull the valve cover off and see if it's two or four valve. I'm crossing my fingers it's a four valve. Any way to tell without pulling the cover? Ace has one in FL. and there are boxes full of them in CA. at Ted's? You guys are just teasing me now! Any for sale? How much? Ted, are you out there? Feel free to contact me at the yahoo email. Please!!! Thanks Jack, how much do you want for them? How do they compare to the 4104 style? They don't need to be perfect. Other than a handfull of folks who would know the difference, if any, I figure anything is better than nothing. When I was heading back from looking at the bus in CA., I spied what looks like a bus boneyard just off of I-5, north of where the 505 merges. Anyone know the place? Contact info? I saw a few GM's sitting there. I figured I'd check it out the next time I head down. I also need to find the cover for the tool area to the right of the stairs. It's got a oak shelf in that spot at the moment. Well, time for bed. Goodnight all and thanks for all the great feed back! Rick | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 97.120.186.11 Rating: N/A |
Oops, I should have refreshed the page before sending my post, I missed Jim, David & Bruce's posts! Well my wife will like it even better! I bet the fan clutch helps a lot. I used to drag race and just the fan clutch verses a "flex-fan", the fan clutch helped a bunch with freeing up a little bit of power and a better 1/4 mile time. I'm sure it will do the same on the bus. Now to find a fan clutch and a dual manifold/exhaust set up. No wonder they call this a sickness! Thanks you guys! Rick | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1837 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20 Rating: N/A |
Rick - The 4104 & 4106 modesty panels are virtually identical, nowadays it would just about take somebody who installed them new at the factory to tell the difference. The bus boneyard you spotted on I-5 is Ted Campbell's place. It's called Coach Maintenance, located at the south end of Williams, CA. Ted does have a website, you can Google it. Be aware that he doesn't come to work until AFTER 4pm PDT. Best to email first. More than likely, he'll have just about all the various bits 'n pieces you'll need to restore the front vestibule area of your coach. Clifford - I stopped in to see Ted about six months ago, and didn't see any of the emblems or hound breastplates. Then again, I wasn't inquiring about them either! He did have several wooden boxes filled with parts that were so worn out they couldn't be rebuilt that he was collecting for the scrapper. Said he was keeping "the rare stuff" tho. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1245 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 66.87.105.139 Rating: N/A |
Wow if Ted doesn't have the dog emblems then mine should be worth even more! | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 198 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.67.216.243  Rating: N/A |
I'd love to find a dog or OEM red plastic plate for mine as well. If it pans out quicker for you Rick, I'd be interested in your GM's. Nice of them to eliminate the "C", now I can pay Rick 2/3 of what he wants, eh? Hey, I do have an extra "MG" grille badge from my '68 MGB. That would look nice, and works well for the dislexic. BTW: I have 4 valve head, tall cover, Jakes (not working yet), and dual headers/mufflers. My mufflers have no tailpipes though...they just end at the bottom of the mufflers, which are mounted vertically. Still see the black smoke when necessary though... Performance upgrade? I'd LOVE to see those numbers...decimal point far left. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1204 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.48.167 Rating: N/A |
I have seen those bring 200 + bucks Ace several years back,I have a Trailways badge from one and was offered 300 for it good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on July 26, 2011) | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 645 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 98.20.56.244 Rating: N/A |
Ace, if it's in pristine condition, it's not unheard of to bring $700. I watched one on eBay go for over $1000, but it was as show room condition as it gets. I always suspected the terminal manager pulled it off as soon as the bus came into his yard, and he either ordered a replacement or just let the bus run without. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1205 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.48.167 Rating: N/A |
At one time awhile back there was some plastic one on the market I think the guy had problems with the Dog Co like IBP had with making the Eagles their Eagle was changed to look the opposite direction of the Eagle bus badge so they got away with it | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1246 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 66.87.105.69 Rating: N/A |
I guess it only depends on who really wants it bad enough to determine how much it's really worth! I will try to post a picture! any offers? | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1494 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.153 Rating: N/A |
Ace I have $25.99 to go LOL Gomer | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 1247 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 66.87.107.239 Rating: N/A |
Gomer its a dog, not a bird! LOL | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 66.189.158.228 Rating: N/A |
Oh you guys are killing me, lol! Ace, is it cast aluminum or stamped? Ted did say: "I did have quite a few but they are gone. Currently they go for as much as $150.00 or more, depending on condition." I guess something's are all relative; how much is your bus worth today if you had to sell it, verses three years ago? The only thing I know for sure is: if I want to buy it, everybody wants a fortune for it. As soon as I decide to sell something, the market is "soft/down/loaded" with them and it's not worth a dime. If I had a dozen of the hounds to sell, someone else would show up with a box of a 100, lol! Lucky for me, I got the whole bus for less then half of what it was appraised at. I guess I can afford to look around till I find one for a fair price or learn to live with the one I have. But if I find one, James, you have first choice on the GM | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2119 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Gomer, they didn't make a plate with a poodle on it. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1495 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.153 Rating: N/A |
I'm trying to buy the thang, so I would be one of a few that have one~!! Then when Ace needs one he will have to git it from me LOL Chessie the chinese will put anything on it if you buy enough of them. I like the Greyhound better than a poddle too.. OH Has anyone seen the NEW buses they have?? I have and they be rite down purty##$$$$$$$ Gomer | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 97.120.186.11 Rating: N/A |
Having done my time as one of Uncle Sam's Misgiuded Children (Semper Fi!), I wouldn't mind having the Marine Corps Bulldog on it. Say! That gives me an idea, maybe I can take a plain one and sandblast or engrave one into it. A Bulldog or a Greyhound silloutte stencil would be easy enough to make, I already have some good patterns on hand. The sandblasting would be a piece of cake. On the other hand, having a Bulldog or a Greyhound engraved into it would look very classy too, although a little more expensive. I guess I could live with either one till I get the real deal Anyone have a picture or two of the oval Greyhound emblem on the breastplate? Any one know the history on it? Thanks! | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1342 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 76.121.230.212  Rating: N/A |
The best part about 4104 twin mufflers is they can be removed through the rear seat engine access panel, don't see how a single muffler would ever come close since even the twins are a tight fit. | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 97.120.186.11 Rating: N/A |
I'll have to look see if that panel was blocked when the conversion was done. They built a bed support over the area with an access door at the forward foot of the bed. It looks like it gives enough room for my 8 year old daughter to squeeze through, but that's it! I'm planning on redoing that area anyways. I saw a bus that the builder installed a metal frame to support the bed over the "box". It used a couple of the HD gas-charged hydraulic hood supports and you could lift the bed up with one hand to gain access to all the storage underneath. Very neat. I'll have to peruse the parts manual on the exhaust. I think I would like to switch to the dual's at some point. I know the twin mufflers in series probably reduces noise better (very, very quite in the back of the bus on the road), I think the dual's would offer better exhaust flow (less restriction = more power & mpg) and the clutch fan would help by reducing parasitic HP loss. Neither one makes more power. They just help reduce the loss of the power you already make. Although with a better flowing exhaust, you can make improvements in the fuel source side, ie: bigger injectors and make more power. Restrictive exhaust very effectively limits HP and is one of the cheapest and easiest ways to make gains without having to compromise the engine. I don't want to put a turbo on it or change injectors or cams, but I see no reason not to look for ways of getting access to the HP that is already there. It should make for an improvement in fuel economy as well. That fan takes a fair amount of HP to turn at speed. A clutch fan is only in "lock up" when the engine temp dictates it's necessary. The rest of the time it moves air, but the engine is not loaded by it, thus reducing the amount of power needed for it and the fuel that power requires, so hopefully better fuel economy Well, that's my line of thinking. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2120 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
You can use one of the hydraulic fans from one of the old city buses. The old look models had them on some as an option. We had one on the 4104 for awhile. Some improper installation issues forced it's removal. I'd use one in a heartbeat if I still had the coach and could find one. The fan and torus is same; the mounting on a 6-71 is different. If you do this, use the Vernatherm from the city buses that have the air port to fully engage when desired. I think on those, the unit caused full lockup when AC was engaged. | ||
| Rick Cribbins (Rc38)
Registered Member Username: Rc38 Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2004 Posted From: 97.120.186.11 Rating: N/A |
Thanks For all the great info you everyone! I think I spend 10X as much time here as I do on the GM bus group@yahoo.com. Both are such a increadible wealth of experience and information! Rick | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 848 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15 Rating: N/A |
Rj.. and the rest of you smart or lucky enough to own the finest coach ever made in America (the SPORTS CAR of COACHES)  THIS badge/ID Plate is actually quite easy to have reproduced, it just requires a bit of legwork to obtain..! ANY Trophy seller with a Laser Engraver can simply scan it into their computer & Laser cut & engrave it in Plexi-Glas or Perspix (NOT Lexan or Polycarbonate) Then all you have to do is add the color , in paint, to the reverse side... a PERFECT duplicate. ( Hint: anyone who paints their fingernails can do this with one eye open ) Depending on the greed factor of the Trophy shop, this can cost you as little as $30 or as much as $80 but you will have EXACTLY what GM mounted on the front of your Coach. All you need to acquire is an original or a PHOTO of one AND an 8 X 8 inch scrap of 1/4 or 3/16ths PLEX which should be available for free from a Plastics Warehouse... if you don't have one handy drop me a note & I'll be HAPPY to send one along gratis..! such a deal ...eh? | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2123 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
more like 1/2 inch thick and the lettering looks to be chrome plating, not paint from the one that was on our 04. It was a new replacement and then the plastic started to show what looked to be internal cracking. |