| Author | Message | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.26)
Rating: |
Hi Everyone! I have gotten most of my conversion done, my 4106 is called Rocinante and it is gorgeous. I unexpectededly had to get a new engine and transmission. I will write more and post pictures soon. Right now I can't find what is draining the engine batteries which are 2 8D's about 4 years old. When the bus wouldn't turn over I connected the battery charger on 55 amps and after a few hours still not enough to crank. I don't know how to look for the problem. I have unplugged everything that runs off the battery that I could think of. My meter said they were around 7.5 volts. I disconnected them and charged each with a ten amp battery charger (one charger per battery) overnight, reconnected them and the bus started right up, but -- usually the gen light is on until I rev it after it is aired up. The Gen light never came on. Next day, today, I find the batteries are again at 7.5 volts. How do I check the Generator -- also new. What steps do I take to find what is draining the batteries? What might it be? Right now the batteries are disconnected and charging at ten amps overnight. What should I do tommorrow, assuming they are charged up again? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, John G Root Jr PD 4106 - 1638 Rocinante | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.81.18) Rating: N/A |
Off hand...4 year old batteries....time to replace,we just had this discussion on "what" to replace with....either new 8-d at 300.00...or 3 or 4 50.00 car batteries....if you got 4 years out of them...ya' did good..read "BATTERIES" about 20 clicks down.. | ||
| Johnny (4.174.67.172) Rating: N/A |
Actually, I can't see needing more than 2 Group 31 truck batteries...about $60-80 each for good ones. | ||
| Doug (68.83.23.33) Rating: N/A |
Rather than offering our personal opinions on what group battery to buy......why don't we discuss the problem/question as asked. If the battery is checked with a hydrometer it will probably show at least one bad cell. Batteries that do not have a regular charge placed on them...even a very slow low charge with sulfate. This causes scale to "grow" on the plates inside the battery. Which effectively reduces the chemical reaction that makes a battery do what it does. Another side effect of low battery usage is that the Acid loses it's PH and becomes water also adding to the scale problem and the che,estry in the reaction process. Batteries can have a very long life they just need proper care and maint. During the charging process liquid is alos turned to gas as most batteries are not sealed they need fluid replacement....low fluid level or dry plates also contribute to low batt output and premature failure. my suggestion to anyone, with any group battery is to provide them with proper maint. Keep fluid levels up to the manufacturer 's levels, be it with distilled H2O or battery acid. Also provide batteries with low use levels a trickle charge to prevent sulfating. As for what group battery you need or want......buy what you want or can afford.. | ||
| Doug (68.83.23.33) Rating: N/A |
What is most likely happening is that one bad cell is draining the charged cells......a bad cell will act as a sponge and reduce the charged cells to it's max charge holding ability.... so if you have a cell that is only capable of holding a 7.5 charge....when you charge it will rise to the max charge level.....but when you disconnect the charger it will equalize. go to the parts store and buy a hydrometer...... over the life of your battery no matter the group[......you will see the effects long before the show lack of cranking power | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (209.247.222.97)
Rating: N/A |
Hi John & ALL: These conversations about batteries, are not a (ONE SIZE FITS ALL SITUATION), as weather conditions vary greatly over this vast USA & Canada!! John lives in Mass. where his coach experiences very cold winters. Here in N.J., when I was operating coaches in commercial service, we used the BEST DEKA batteries, with the highest "Cranking AMP rating available, and they had a 3 year warranty. Going into the third winter we would just pull them out, and replace them. Our Coaches parked outside, we did not use block heaters, and at 5AM every day, they would start up for our drivers, in order for them to go out on their Runs!!! And we do have some single digit and low teen temps. here in N.J. during the winter!!! In John's situation, living in Mass., I seriously doubt that 2 Group 31's would do it for him??? It is possible that John's batteries may have fully discharged and froze over this past winter and the internal lead plates have warped and are touching, and therefore are shorting out, and now have to be replaced???? John. Please give me a call tomorrow!!! Happy & Safe Bussin' to ALL!!! LUKE at US COACH | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (69.68.102.180) Rating: N/A |
Luke, I have to say that having been born and lived there for 21 years, I think you are over estimating the severity of Massachusetts winters. It sounds to me like Jersey's winters are much like Mass., but then it's only 150 miles from Newark to Springfield. My family still lives in New England and I don't remember any talk of freezing batteries, I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just don't remember hearing anyone mention it. Having said that, I think a third group 31, or a pair of 4d's or 8d's would probably suit John's situation, if he doesn't intend to float charge his batts or use a block heater... Something I think everyone ought to use for cold weather starts. I would have to agree that at the very least one of John's batts is toast, the unfortunate thing is most batteries will come back time and time again from what is considered full discharge at 10.5 volts, but most batteries especially 4 year old batteries, will not come back from an extended period at 7.5 volts, no matter how long and low you charge them. In my experience, even if, at some point, one of his batteries was salvagable, having been repeatedly drawn down to 7.5 volts, has undoubtedly ruined that battery as well. The best thing anyone can do for his charging system is to start with a fresh set of batteries, whenever one needs to be changed, when you do that, and later, one battery fails, the other generally will not be far behind, and many times (like with John's batteries) a battery that has shorted internally will drag down it's companion. John, until you replace your batteries, I wouldn't worry about the rest of the charging system, but unless you replace those batts you could at some point do further damage to the charging system. You may find that once you replace your batts all your charging system problems have gone away. Brian | ||
| FAST FRED (63.234.23.53) Rating: N/A |
NEW Batterys loose about 1/2% to 1% of there charge just sitting daily. Old batts near the end of their service life will loose about 3% per day . Discharged batts freez quite easily , fully charged ones dont freez till really cold. At 4 years toss them ,there isnt mich left but a memory. AS in all areas price buys quality , so decide how mich reliability your willing to pay for. FAST FRED | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.117.139.135)
Rating: N/A |
If it were me John I would replace the batts and have the gen checked. I can't speak for generators and I know they work different but I have experinced several cases of either a bad bat causing an alternator to go bad and a bad alternator causing batteries to go bad. It's a pain having to replace a bat not check the alternator and having to replace the bat again. Heck pull it down to the local Advance and have them check the whole system. As long as it's 12v they can just make sure you tell them they can cause they won't belive you unless someone there knows something about truck systems. | ||
| CaSteve (208.19.54.117) Rating: N/A |
AND,,,, if you keep starting that good ol' DD with bad batts(my opinion of your problem, you might as well pick up a starter solenoid when you finally replace the batts, 'cause low voltage starts will play havoc on the flat washer(contact)inside the solenoid. CaSteve | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.40)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks guys! I guess I have to get batteries! Thanks, John | ||
| Michael Lewis (24.17.17.222)
Rating: N/A |
Perhaps we have John replacing batteries before he solves what may be the real problem (or multiple problems). While all the above was good advice, the original question, as I read it, was "how can I check for a possible battery drain?" (dead short). He did not indicate if the batteries accepted a full charge (13.5v + -), but if they did, he may not solve the problem by simply replacing batteries. A new generator will mean the batts are (most likely) being charged while the engine is running. If he has a dead short somewhere, new batteries will die, as sure as pastrami gets mustard. Checking for a dead short in a DC system can be as simple as determining what is powered by the batts, pulling fuses one at a time, and either looking for a small spark when reconnecting the batteries or using a volt/ohm meter in line with the wire(s) in question. I spent many years restoring VW's which are notorious for finicky electrical systems,and usually could locate a dead short in minutes using this method. Like VW's, our busses are old, and it's amazing how deterioration, vibration, old insulation, and contamination can create a nightmare of crossed and dead circuits. Obviously, basic battery safety is important to assure a well ventilated area around the batteries. Michael | ||
| TWO DOGS (65.179.193.65) Rating: N/A |
If the battery is 4....replace... | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (198.81.26.45)
Rating: N/A |
Michael, given everything John said about his problem, I believe his short is internal to one or both of his batteries. John, if you have a test light you could easily determine if your system has a draw, or a short. After you begin to install your new batteries, leave the positive cable off the battery bank and attach the clip from a test light to the positive cable and touch the probe to the positive post, if it lights you have a draw or short. Brian | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751) (65.117.139.135)
Rating: N/A |
Thats a good idea I hadn't thought of Brain. I've got a similar problem in my silversides but I'm chalking it up to the A/C wires are still hooked up and only taped off in the A/C bay. I haven't gotten around to unhooking them yet as I'm not in a hurry. I keep the batts unhooked and a trickel on them but I'll have to try your idea before and after I unhook the A/C. I've got a brand new bat and only one hooked up at the moment so I don't think it's the battery that is causing my trouble. | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (69.68.102.180) Rating: N/A |
Over the years, if I discover a charging system problem with just about any vehicle in our fleet; If it turns out that the batteries need to be replaced, before I do anything else, I replace the batteries. Very often, as I mentioned before, replacing the batteries is often the only problem with a system that is acting up. As for pulling the alternator or generator off and having it tested, as a general rule unless there is some evidence for it, or I suspect the the alt or gen to be bad, I won't do those tests until I have the fresh batts installed, then I have something solid in the system that will give me a base for an accurate system diagnosis. You could pull the alt or gen off and have it tested, but the bus gauges should show you if your charging system is working properly after you have replaced the batteries. Brian | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.60)
Rating: N/A |
Hi All, The batteries check out fine, so I'm happy about that, no bad cells. The heavy duty truck garage where I have the bus serviced is managed by Dan who has experience with busses from years ago. He thought that the voltage regulator should be in the front luggage bay, but we couldn't find it. Does anyone know where it is in a 4106? I know -- I should look in da book. The master control switch is probably the problem, it is not telling the generator to charge the batteries. There is a little black box in the rear circuits box up near the top- the one that opens with the two big screws behind the rear wheels, well it clicks on when you connect the batteries and gets warm. What does it do? Has anyone taken apart the master control switch? I looked at the diagram in the da book, and it looks both daunting and simple enough. Well, I'll spend some time on it tommorrow. By the way, I have read lots of archive on batteries, but could find very little about the generator (is it an alternator and they just call it a generator?) and the charging system. I also discovered that I can start the engine from the rear -- I never noticed those switches before! Thanks John PS Someday I may join in the answers but so far I don't feel qualified to comment on things on the board. | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.60)
Rating: N/A |
Michael, thanks for that, I now have to figure out where the fuses to pull are! I'll keep you posted on what I find. I have disconnected the batteries for the night, so I'll see how they are in the morning. I definitly disagree that 4 year old batteries need replacing. As has been said it all depends and my engine batteries have done very little over the past 4 years because the bus mostly just sits around waiting for a new engine or me to finish the project so I can go on a trip! Shorts AAAAGGGHHH. Every wire that went to something I wasn't using (the airconditioners the heating system, etc. I disconnected from the rear panel and the panel next to the driver and from anywhere else the diagram indicated, so I will assume the short is not in those circuits. John | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.65.65)
Rating: N/A |
John, if you have a relay clicking and getting warm just because you hook up your battery and the master switch on the control panel is in the "stop" or "off" position, you have found part of your problem. Anything that produces noticeable heat when it is powered up can run your batteries flat in a surprisingly short period of time(like overnight). Nothing in the coach should turn on or draw power if your mater switch is off and all the other switches on the same panel are off. I don't think you will find much in the way of fuses to pull; the 4106 came with circuit breaker protection for most every circuit that the maker wanted to protect. The right tool to find your drain is an accurate ammeter; a VOM or DMM with a 10 or 20 amp scale ought to work just fine. With the meter connected, disconnecting one lead at a time will show you when you have found the lead taking the power. When you get the right lead, your relay will no longer get warm from having the battery hooked up. If you have your manuals and the diagram, you will be able to figure it out. If you don't have the manuals, you ought to get some. If you need help reading them, I expect someone will try to answer your questions. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (69.68.102.180) Rating: N/A |
John, you say your batts are fine... I find that amazing on 4 year old batteries that got drawn down repeatedly to 7.5 volts for extended periods. Just amazing... one in a million pair of batteries. Brian | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.60)
Rating: N/A |
Lots of lead in those 8D's! john root pd 4106 1638 Rocinante Only 700 -750k miles since new. It's a baby bus! | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.60)
Rating: N/A |
I do have the manuals - the original ones! I am slowly learning how to read electrical diagrams. My digital multimeter has an mA A setting which I believe is for measuring amps; the manual talks about current which I assume is amps. Now I plan to open up the driver's panel and test something. Well, I'll learn by doing. When I was a kid I used to fix things like the toaster by taking it apart and putting it back together, without any idea of how it worked or why that would fix it. It often worked. Therefore, I plan to take the master control switch out and take it apart and put it back together again hoping that will solve the problem. What does a circuit breaker look like in the driver side panel? Thanks John Root Rocinante Baby Bus! | ||
| drivingmisslazy (66.168.168.57) Rating: N/A |
John, an alternator and a generator are two different animals that both do the same thing. It is in the internal construction of the units. One easy way to tell is that if you have big brushes riding on a commutator (lots of small copper segements) it is a generator. If it has diodes, it is an alternator. Generators were being phased out in the early seventies and I imagine by the early eighties everything was alternators. There are some recent posts on the MAC board describing alternator operation. Richard | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (204.248.119.254) Rating: N/A |
Hi John, The voltage regulator on our 4106 is under a cover on the ceiling of the rear baggage compartment, on the drivers side, near the battery compartment, yours should be in the same place unless someone moved it for better access when doing their conversion. The relay that is getting warm in the rear electrical panel is the first thing I would check. Once that problem is cured, if you still have a draw on the batteries, then you need to check further. My manual shows only an alternator for the 4106 so I beleive that is what you have. Good luck fixing your problem. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La crescent, MN | ||
| Frank Allen (152.163.252.163) Rating: N/A |
i would check my batteries with a hydrometer and also do a load check on both of them ,if this proves to be ok i would start the bus and get the system charging and measure the voltage across the battery , should be around 13.8 volts , if it is the charge circuit should be ok, im not sure which relay you are talking about , there are two in the rear panel, one has two relays , one is for the charge circuit the other for the start circuit, no relays should be clicking when you connect the batteries, you need to look in the book and see which relay box is clicking and what it is in there for, may be it is no longer needed as many of the electrical circuits are not used in a conversion, could be as simple as disconecting a relay that is no longer needed, my 06 sits for weeks and the batteries never go down, you can get a battery load tester and hydrameter in the autoparts store, the load tester also can be used to check the charge voltage , Be careful about making low voltage starts and take a look at that double relay box , they can ruin your whole day when they go bad. The generater on a 06 is really a alternater and is incorectly called a generater, hope some of this helps. Frank Allen TX 4106 | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.70)
Rating: N/A |
Ok. here goes: The batteries are fine. They have started up the bus about 25 times without charging and are now at 11.98 volts so I will charge them with a charger. The relay that is coming on when you connect the battery is the Starter Control and Generator Relay in the Engine Junction Box. The Master Control Switch is ok, I took it off and continuity tested it and it checks out. The problem is somewhere else. Here are the symptoms: When the MCS (Master Control Switch) is off, the starter switch works and engine cranks, but does not start. While the engine is cranking turn the MCS to Day and it fires right up but does not energize the Generator and does not charge the batteries. When the MCS is in the Day position the Gen tell tale lamp does not come on and the Generator lead that connects to the #3 terminal on the MCS has power (I think it shouldn't) and if you ground it then the Gen tell tale lamp comes on. The start switch does not work in the Day or Night position only in the off position. From poring over the wiring diagram for hours I have numerous theories, but no conviction that any of them are right. My assumption is that the generator circuit that goes through the MCS should get power from the switch, but, since it has power without the switch it must be getting it from the regulator, which must be defective. The voltage regulator (which the diagram calls the regulator), in my 4106 appears to be completely inaccesible. It is in the rear baggage compartment behind the battery compartment. The Fresh and Black water tanks are blocking it completely. I can't even see clearly if that is what it is, but since Da Book says it is there that must be it. So, if anyone agrees that that is the problem may I cut through the battery compartment to get to it? Why not? If I have to get a new regulator I'll mount it in the expanded battery compartment. I would prefer that the problem be something else and would welcome other suggestions for what to do. One of my kibbitzers thinks it has to be a short in the old wiring. I look at the wiring and it all looks fine to me, he looks at it and says its old fanshioned cotton, what do you expect? I don't believe there is a short in the wiring. I learned how to use the conitnuity tester and believe I found all the wires were connected to the right terminals and circuit breakers. The #3 wire from the MCS has power without getting it from the MCS which could be right because the Gen Tell Tale light stays on until the Gen and Voltage regulator turn it off. But I keep having conflicting ideas about all this and would like an experienced opinion. Thanks for considering this! John Root Rocinante PD 4106 1638 | ||
| Johnny (4.174.106.166) Rating: N/A |
"In John's situation, living in Mass., I seriously doubt that 2 Group 31's would do it for him???" I don't, since I've been cranking a Detroit with 2 Interstate Group 31's regularly for almost a year now. This is also in Massachusetts. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.65.65)
Rating: N/A |
John, I don't think any generator lead connects directly to #3 on the MCS. #3 does connect to a circuit breaker which then goes to the start circuit and the no charge lamp. The other side of the no charge lamp connects to #5 on the starter control and generator relay. This connection is tied into the heating blowers and generator terminal marked "relay". This means that you can crank your coach if the generator is not putting out power or the generator can put out power, but you can't crank your coach. When you can start your coach, the no charge light should be on. When you pick up the RPM and the generator charges, the light should go out and the heating blower (if it's switch is on) should come on. If you ground the MCS #3 when it is turned on, you will be shorting the supply to the MCS directly to ground. Since that is fed with an 8 gauge, you should get a serious spark and fry any small lead you use. You should NOT ground this terminal. Since you sound like grounding it doesn't make a big spark, it sounds like the MCS is not making a good connection between #3 and its supply. MCS #3 is supposed to be hot in the day and night positions only. Work on those diagrams some more! Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.20)
Rating: N/A |
Tome, I take it then that you would agree that when #3 is disconnected from the MCS it shouldn't have power? Also, then that from the diagram the only place it could get poweer when disconnected from the MCS is from the regulator? and that is why when I ground #3 when it is diconnected from the MCS it lights the Gen Tell Tale lamp, because it is getting power from somewhere. Because it is getting power when it shouldn't it is shorting out the starter switch which is why it won't start in day or nite position? But the starter switch works in the off position because it is not competing with power coming incorrectly from the #3 lead. Now what? I will look at the #5 lead and see what I find. I don't understand the starter switch circuit because I do not know what the tw switches shown and then the symbol under them which is not not connected to them. I'll keep studying the diagram. Thanks, John | ||
| TWO DOGS (65.177.144.248) Rating: N/A |
also...don't forget it could be a diode in the alternator | ||
| John G Root Jr (Johnroot) (66.82.9.14)
Rating: N/A |
Well, as I said in the beginning taking it apart and putting it back togehter again can help. The power to the #3 when disconnected from the MCS is gone. The starter switch now works in Day and not when off. The no gen light comes on and stays on even when I rev the engine. There is no more drain on the battery when the switch is off. The start and gen relay looks good, (push it manually and it starts the bus, but when I manually push the gen circuit thingy it slows the engine down and draws down the battery. I need new ideas. Maybe it is the voltage regulator, but the book says it is unaffected by age, vibration, temp, etc. The electrical diagram is beyond my amateur knowledge. Maybe if the problem is with the bus I shouldn't waste my time trying to figure it out. Maybe I have bitten off more than I can chew. I have already spent more than I can afford for this boondogle. John |
