| Author | Message | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1344 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 72.161.174.148  Rating: N/A |
After returning from a 5000 mi trip I now have become a lot better acquainted with my V730, my first AT bus. It has the electric toggle switch shifter on a GMC PD4107 w/8V71. Some observations; As far as I can tell it only shifts two times from dead stop, once at 25 mph and once at 50 mph. I assume the second shift is the lockup in third? On grades it will shift down (Unlock?) at 46 to 47 but I started moving it to second at 53-54 to keep up revs. This seems to be the only time I have any control. If I move it to first at any speed or from any other position nothing changes? I tried to use TomC's shift down to first lockup but never was able to use anything but third unlock. It would only shift down to first if I stopped and never exceeded 25 mph? At the grade crest it will shift back into 3rd lockup at 50 no matter what position the selector is in? Sometimes if I have a lot of throttle it won't shift until 55-56. The first and second shifter positions don't hold it in those gears like I expected? The sooner I shift down the less it overheats the engine which happened coming east out of Laramie, WY. Cooled right down after a short stop. All the posts I've read about first and second lockups don't seem to apply to my trans. If they are working they are so subtle I don't notice them. The shifter failed two times just after I had cleared heavy traffic! Talk about luck! It had shown some signs of problems a couple of times before but always worked after some repeated movement. I found the very small wires connected to the shifter solenoid on the trans were loose. The screws holding the wires are 1/4" Hex head and just about impossible to reach, a real pain.They need star washers but I'm afraid I won't be able to get them back on if I remove them!! The trans temp gage shows normal temps of 220 and up to 240 on hard pulls. However, when I check the trans with my IR thermometer it is never above 200*F and cooler lines or oil lines are never above 170-180 so I figure the gage is out of whack because of the long leads to it. I have the same problem with my engine heat gage also. Any experiences like mine or any ideas? | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1346 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.12.43 Rating: N/A |
Hey guys, are there no members who run with electric switched V730s?? I researched this for hours on the net and found nothing? | ||
| Dal Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 684 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 98.20.56.115  Rating: N/A |
I hesitate to answer due to fall-out from a previous post a few weeks ago by a BCM Vendor and "Engineer". I guess I should let him answer first as we all know that ALL engineers have every answer. Sorry Ian, I'll delete this one in a bit if needed. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1238 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.191.147 Rating: N/A |
Gus that bus has a Stone/Bennett shifter you are confusing some of us do you have any idea if it is hyd or air both need maintenance from time to time the air type more | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 661 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 75.139.102.166  Rating: N/A |
Gus, I may be WAY off here, but shifting just twice, at 25 & 50 and having a toggle switch shifter sounds more like a VS2-8 Allison which would not really have any hold back ability. Can you post a picture of the big back of the trans (Torque converter housing) as seen looking at the engine thru the engine door? Or maybe you KNOW yours is a V730. | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 715 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.188.36  Rating: N/A |
My understanding is first not locked, second not locked, second locked, third locked. It feels like three shift points from first gear. Because of the pronounced difference between not locked and locked some get confused and think they have a four speed. I have time with the V730 with both controls. The Stone/Bennett takes up less room. Other than that I didn't feel one was any better than the other. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1347 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.27.98 Rating: N/A |
Jim and Laryn, Thanks, now things are beginning to make sense. I knew somebody on this board would know about this. A very good point. I was told by the PO it is a V730 but I really don't know that. I haven't found any kind of data plate anywhere, where is the best place to look? It definitely shifts only two times that I can feel. The first shift is smooth but the second shift is usually so hard I assume it is the lockup, so maybe it is a VS? That would explain why I can't make it do anything else after the first downshift. However, top speed is at least 75 which made me think it was a V730 but that may be because of the rear end ratio. My understanding from the PO is it had a VS tran before this one was installed. It doesn't hold very well on hills. I got some V730 and Stone-Bennett books with it so assumed it is a V730? I'll post a photo. It is elect/air controlled by a panel toggle switch and a rectangular solenoid on the trans shifter. I can go back and shift it with a screwdriver if I have to. When there is no air it won't shift and the engine won't start, found that out the first time I parked it and forgot to leave it in neutral!   | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1349 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.27.98 Rating: N/A |
Sorry about the photos mixed in with the text but I don't attach photos often enough to remember how to do it or the max size. It took me an hour to make smaller photos with min blurring!! | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 717 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 108.4.188.36 Rating: N/A |
That is a V730. | ||
| thomas flocks (Taflocks)
Registered Member Username: Taflocks Post Number: 469 Registered: 9-2009 Posted From: 67.253.124.108 Rating: N/A |
at least your shifter didn't fall off in your hand in Brooklyn NY ..... | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 338 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 50.39.221.113  Rating: N/A |
Just looking at mine in my 4905 it looks like that. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 665 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Yup, A V730. So it should have 3 distinct shifts. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1350 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.26.29 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, now we're getting somewhere. Now that you guys have cleared that up can you tell me why it only shifts two times - or does it shift so smoothly I can't feel it? Actually my shifter did fall off but luckily I was parked in Seattle!! It was one of those pot metal or plastic long toggle switches and broke off when I was trying to get it to shift when the wires were loose. It now has a good quality short steel toggle switch! So, I start out in first, then it shifts smoothly at 25mph, then it shifts hard at 50mph and that is all I can feel. What kind of maintenance does it need other than filter and oil changes?? | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 194 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.240  Rating: N/A |
Gus right behind the oil cooler ( silver in picture) down low just above the oil pan you will find the Transmission Tag. On the transit transmissions that water to oil cooler covers the tranny ID plate. It's Likly a V 730 D when you finally get to see the tag.  | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 339 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 50.39.221.113 Rating: N/A |
Am I missing somthing, My 730 justs shifts twice=== Start in first==shift to second==shift to third. When on long pull shift down and lock in first gear at about 15 mph I think. So it uses three gears but shifts twice. When I down shift for hills by hand from third to second at about 46 to 48 mph. If I shift to quickly it will pull untill rite speed is reached and then shift. Larry | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 538 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
Larry and Gus A V730 shifts (or feels like it) 3 times. Starts in convertor 1, then convertor 2, then lock up 2, then lock up 3. Yours must be shifting so smoothly you don't feel the lock up happen. Your top speed would be low if it didn't lock up. Usually the problem is the final shift is missing because the oil is low but if you are going 60 mph + it is shifting into 3rd. The only way to tell for sure is to put a pressure gauge in the ports on the valve body. Each clutch pack is approx 130 psi min and reverse is 230-265 psi. Bill | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1353 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.11.3 Rating: N/A |
Larry, My upshifts are exactly as you describe. Downshifts are automatic at 46-47 if I do nothing with the switch, but most of the time I can do it with the switch at 53-54 which keeps my rpms up much better. I've never felt it shift down to first. It will only do that if I stop but I've never been down to 15mph on a grade unless I stopped. Usually 28-30 is as slow as it has ever gotten. Actually, I'm assuming it goes to first when I stop, I don't really know that for sure! Bill, I have never felt three shifts. I'm positive it locks up in third because of the ease with which it gets to 65-70 and I'm getting 7-7.5 mpg on level ground. It gets up to 70-75 without my knowledge if I'm not paying close attention! Can you feel your shifts easily? Is your third lockup hard? At what speeds do your shifts occur? Why does it skip conv 3? What does it shift down to automatically from 3LU on a grade and at what speed? Can you shift it down to any gear you want if the speed is low enough? Can you hold it down to any gear you want with the selector? I can't do any of those! I thought I understand ATs but this one has me baffled! The bus goes like crazy and has no real problem except on long mountain climbs but I feel as if I'm not getting proper performance from the AT. I think if I could control the gears I could stop the overheating on long climbs by keeping the rpms up to keep coolant circulating. I could do that on my 4104 w/671 and 4sp, it would climb any mt all day long in first or second with not a sign of getting hot as long as the rpms were high, or in third for that matter. I really appreciate what you guys are telling me. I'm beginning to suspect mine needs some adjustments!! | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 340 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 50.39.221.113 Rating: N/A |
Gus Mine has the stone bennett also and yes on the level shifting with the toggal I can hold it in any gear. It shifts down near 45 and 30 I think. I have to watch mine real close or it will heat. I do leave the defroster shutoff OPEN in the summer in hilly areas which keeps it cooler. Did you just buy a standard toggle when you replaced it. | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 539 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Gus You must be getting all the shifts or there is no way you would do that mph and get 7+ mpg. I can feel all the shifts but the lock up is gentle going into lock up 2. There is no convertor 3 as the AT is already locked up in 2 before it goes to 3. Depends on where your throttle is but generally the first shift occurs at 15mph, second shift at 20mph then lock up at 25mph with the final shift to 3rd at 35mph. On long climbs you must try to keep the lock up engaged as the turbine creates a tremendous amount of heat when you are not in lock up. You will feel it drop out of lock up when the engine rpm revs up at a lower speed. Bill | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1356 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.18.168 Rating: N/A |
Larry and Bill, Yes, I just got a standard toggle switch but the one I replaced was also just a standard toggle with a long handle and nothing changed when I replaced it. I presumed all the toggle does is move the solenoid one more notch, it appears to be a straight line system to me. Sort of like a straight shift motorcycle where you have to go through all the gears in numerical order. Is there a special gear selector switch made for SB shifters? I'm not a heavy foot driver so my upshifts are not forced. I got used to slow starts in the 4104! As I've said before, the only shifts I feel are at 25 and 50 and one going down at 46-47 or slightly higher if I move the toggle. Maybe there is one at 15 that I don't feel. If I stop on a grade and restart it appears to be in a lower gear but I can't tell for sure. In my case it seems to me that more heat is generated in top lockup because the engine is not developing high rpms and it is probably lugging. This always caused the 671 to get hot. When I shift down as soon as possible it stays much cooler. Since I can't hold it in gear with the selector and my shift points are nothing like yours do either of you have any suggestions as to what might be wrong or out of adjustment? I leave my heating system open and also the heating coil for house hot water. These help in the morning but by noon the house water is so hot this no longer helps. It does cool down in an amazingly short time when stopped though. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_todd)
Registered Member Username: George_todd Post Number: 1284 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 99.37.28.23 Rating: N/A |
A thought Gus, If you have a tach, we can figure out what is (or isn't) happening. One way would be to start from a stop and accelerate past 50 mph, where you have felt two shifts. If the RPMs have made 3 drops, your converter is locking up, and you just aren't feeling it. Second way would be while operating in 3rd, well above the downshift point, remove your foot completely from the throttle. Wait a second or two, then apply all the throttle you can without causing a downshift. If it is locked up, the RPM essentially won't change. If it is running on the converter, the RPM will vary several hundred with the throttle. G | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 341 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 50.39.221.113 Rating: N/A |
Gus My toggle broke also, I felt it was a special toggle. Also one of my in gear numbers was not lighting up. So I ordered the unit from United Transmission Exchange in Calif. They are very good people phone 909-384-8140 talked to Donny Arroyo. They are also Allison dealers. You could call them and they also could give you numbers and how to check. Could also tell you what speeds all of the shifts were supposed to be. They helped me a lot. I also have the address if you want it. Hope it helps. George thank you very much you gave me a few thots as to mine working rite, I really feel I am not getting the speed out out of mine that I should. Altho last trip was 6300 miles and I averaged 6.78 mpg. Thanks George Larry | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1357 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.9.86 Rating: N/A |
I don't have a tach so that is out. My panel electric gear selector is just five generic separate lights and a momentary on two way toggle switch mounted in holes in the panel. It is not a unit and is obviously a home-made setup. I'll contact an Allison dealer, hopefully I can find one closer to home, and find out if I need a special unit. This could be my whole problem. Larry, thanks for the contact info. Could you please post a photo of your panel gear selector? What did it cost? | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 342 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 50.39.221.113 Rating: N/A |
Sorry Gus the computer person of the house is in the Hosp. I did get the picture taken, can go no futher. The panel is black about 3"X5" has StoneBennett on top Transmission on bottom. .Just under SB small red screen (has R N 1 2 3 when toggled) down for R up N 1 2 3, toggle returns to center when moved up or down. Toggle is just under red screen and above word Transmittion. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1358 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 72.161.173.251 Rating: N/A |
Larry, Thanks, I'll look on the net for a photo. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1359 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 72.161.173.251 Rating: N/A |
Larry, I just found this with google; http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=16170.0 If you can't make this work then search "chris4905" and you will find the string. It appears there is no need for a special panel, just the generic MO-OFF-MO toggle switch and the lights, exactly what I have except the lights are not LEDs. I think I need to look into the "equal length air hoses between air throttle and trans part of this. I'm sure mine are not equal. | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 343 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 50.39.221.113 Rating: N/A |
Gus Just did google search for stone bennett, came up with pictures of both cab board and wireing diagrams. Very good display. Larry | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1360 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.31.238 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, I found that SB factory panel too. One switch and a single gear light. It takes about as much space as mine but has the advantage of being a single unit. Mine has five lights which i think is easier to see than their tiny one. PO also installed a nice brightness control. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2144 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
since you stated that the second shift is harsh, you don't notice the lockup happening, which is noticeable by a slight change in pitch of engine. Turn the music/radio off and listen for it. That is why the second shift is harsher than the first; already in lockup. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1362 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 173.202.20.170 Rating: N/A |
John, Makes sense. No radio. I'm pretty well tuned in to the music of the DD, no sweeter sound. I listen closely and try to feel it but there is nothing more that I can feel/hear. Is it possible I'm starting out in second converter, shifting to third converter, then to third lockup? | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2145 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: |
if it was starting out in second, it would be pretty sluggish to move with lots of throttle and engine revs; esp. on any grade. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1363 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 72.161.175.252 Rating: N/A |
It does seem to pull down pretty bad on short steep grades at low speed. The owner of the shop that replaced my genset said it seemed to take a lot of throttle to get up his drive. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2146 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
if it truly is starting in second, remove, inspect and clean governor thoroughly, esp. the inner spool valve, so that it moves freely. If you hold governor with weights down, the fly weights should flop or move outward. if you then take your hand and push both weights inward at the same time, you should see the inner spool move if it is working properly. Just like a governor on older Hydramatics, only bigger. Do you have a tach? | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 1364 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 72.161.172.185 Rating: N/A |
John, Thanks for info. I'll get into this more when the heat lets up for fall. No tach. |
