| Author | Message | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 671 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120  Rating: N/A |
Does anyone know if the radiator from a 4905/4107 will fit into a 4104? Anybody know the dimensions of the 4905/4107 radiator? | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1265 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.191.147 Rating: N/A |
The core is 31 1/2 w x 33 in tall on the 4905a I have here good luck | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 672 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Luvrbus. Now I need the dimensions on the 4104 radiator because mine is 700 miles away. Anybody? | ||
| ned sanders (Uncle_ned)
Registered Member Username: Uncle_ned Post Number: 112 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 74.235.136.192 Rating: N/A |
Jim stop by my place in Lenoir. Will show how to put a large radiator in a 04. uncle ned | ||
| Troy Burcham (Badlybentmc7)
Registered Member Username: Badlybentmc7 Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 184.5.152.209 Rating: N/A |
The core in a 4104 is as follows,30in tall 29 wide 3 and 3/4 in thick. this is core dimentions .only.The tanks and bands are extra.A4106rad core is 33and 1/4 tall 31and7/8wide.they will not directly interchange,but as some will argue anything can be done with a torch and hammer. hope this info helps you out,Troy B | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 674 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Troy, thanks, that helps a lot! Ned, I will do that if we don't get snowed in first! LOL. BTW, how many hp is your 6v92? | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2152 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
having had and have both coaches; the 4905 radiator is almost 50 percent wider and would require major surgery to make it fit. I do like how the 4905 radiators are hinged. | ||
| ned sanders (Uncle_ned)
Registered Member Username: Uncle_ned Post Number: 113 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 74.235.136.192 Rating: N/A |
I don't know the horsepower but it was built by Jara Smith. He was famous for big injectors and different turbos. I lost a turbo and went to detroit with my numbers. They would not sell me that one because it was not the one for my engine. David At davids coach got me one and installed it for less than Detroit wanted. Stop any time you are down in the heat. some days I just ride up to Prices Park just to get some real cool air. uncle ned uncle ned | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 677 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Well, I know I will need more radiator. I'm planning on going to a 270HP 6-71T which is 100 more than the original 2 valve. The 2 valve never got even a little hot for the first 9 years but is inching a bit higher so I'm guessing the radiator needs rodded out again. No way that rad will work on the big dawg. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2154 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
we turboed ours and could get by most of the time with a stock clean radiator. Unless you want to get into a lot of work, a misting system would be the easiest or a special made core that will remove more heat in the same dimensions.Check with the radiator manufacturers. They make versions with more tubes, thicker, more fins. Also there are fans available with more blades/ better designs in either rotation. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1536 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.199  Rating: N/A |
Jim Bob I have a 6-71 4 valve head with n-70's in it and the radiator does just fine in it. On a long pull it seems ALL DD will heat a little and all I have to do is let up on the right pedal a little LOL Gomer | ||
| ned sanders (Uncle_ned)
Registered Member Username: Uncle_ned Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 74.235.136.192 Rating: N/A |
Jim-bob wish you could have seen Jack Bradshaw's turboed 6/71 before it went west. it had the blower on the other side and the exhaust on the back with the turbo. Was a neat installation. man from calif. bought it and drove straight home team driving. ned sanders | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 680 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Ned, I would have liked to have seen that and maybe taken a couple of pictures. If the blower was on the forward side, (RH side of engine) then governor, fuel pump, water pump, everything was on that side, yes? If so, it sounds like a normal truck configuration engine. I am getting such an engine but changing the configuration to normal 4104 with a parts engine. Not sure yet how I'll do the turbo mount as there isn't too much extra space. Much easier to figure out when the engine is in place. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2156 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: |
Ours had the turbo bolted right on the exhaust manifold on the back side.(towards front of coach) the stock muffler was eliminated from that area. Exhaust went straight down from turbo and across bottom of coach to right side with a compact muffler. 4inch exhaust, sounded great without being too loud. Pipe from turbo went up over top transmission end of engine, allowing enough room for valve cover removal when necessary. Upper corner of bulkhead above valve cover required a little clearance for engine intake pipe from turbo.Engine shutdown bonnet was retained for "just in case" Oil bath air cleaners were removed and a dry type was shoehorned up in that area.Turbo oil feed came from convenient oil gallery and drain went down to back of block to fitting that would drain back into pan.Had C75 inj with std timing and a throttle delay for excess smoke starting out. Make sure you retain the engine access hole for future turbo servicing.Was a nice simple,compact, trouble free setup; never had any problems with it over 100,000 miles. You should have a pyrometer installed to monitor exhaust temps. | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 682 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, John. I have copied & saved your post. What did you do for a radiator? Thanks for mentioning the pyrometer. I will add one though the original 82 Chevy Brigadier truck did not have one, I think it's a very good idea. Did you keep the original 4104 Spicer & how did it hold up? What happened to your '04? | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2159 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
Used same radiator with a clean core. No problems with trans before or after. If you have a high rear,(3:55), the turbo setup does kill torque off idle, so starting out on a hill or backing up can require some slipping of the clutch in severe cases. I switched the coach over to the 4:11 setup. Really made it run in the hills better and starting out on grades issue was eliminated.Top end dropped from 79mph to 69mph @2200. Since I usually run between 60 and 65, that was tolerable for me.Lost, about 1/2 mile to the gallon. I think a smaller turbo with a wastegate would be a better setup. Quicker spool and total boost controlled. Or an overdrive setup with 4:56 gears would be the ultimate. Sold the coach two years ago to a custom car builder in Holland,Michigan. We accompanied him out there, just in case of any issues. We did change the primary fuel filter halfway out. Took a total of 10 minutes (spin on) and were again on the way. Haven't heard from him since. I've heard people indicate that the stock transmission/angle gears won't hold up to higher power or a 8V-71 or 6V-92. Maybe in normal transit service, but I think they would do fine in our use.If nothing else, switching to synthetic oil should help. I have a 4905 now. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 375 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
You really need less radiator with a turbo. The turbo blows the heat out the exhaust and takes a lot of heat away from the coolant. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2160 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157 Rating: N/A |
huh? | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 554 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
What drives the turbo? Intake air bychance or hot air? | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 547 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
Joe The turbo is driven by the hot exhaust gases. Some even wrap the pipes from the exhaust manifold to the turbo to keep the heat going as much as possible to the turbo. There must also be no leaks in the exhaust pipes or the amount of boost will drop a lot. The compressed intake air from the other side of the turbine wheel in the turbo is sent to an aftercooler either in the engine or in front of the radiator to cool it as the cooler the air is the denser the air is. Hope this explains the turbo operation for you Joe. Bill | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1270 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.191.147 Rating: N/A |
Guys Larry is not pulling your leg on the modern 4 stroke engines boost does remove heat doesn't work that way on a 2 stroke they need water. A 60 series will heat like crazy with low boost difference is they run at 200 to 205 degrees good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on September 12, 2011) (Message edited by luvrbus on September 12, 2011) | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 555 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Bill I have a half an idea how a turbo works, but I could not help myself posing that question in jest. Joe. | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 548 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Joe I figured you knew but just in case I posted for you. Maybe someone else isn't sure how they work. Bill | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 684 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Well my existing radiator is in great shape. Might need little rust particles rodded out like I did 11 years ago when I first got the old girl. Maybe from what all of you say it will work with a different fan & misters. I have the 3.55:1 ratio and live at the top of a 4 mile, 8% grade so she works pretty hard in 2nd and sometimes 1st to get up there. The higher hp will let me hold a good speed in 2nd but I'll betcha she'll want to get hot. New engine is T, not TA. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1843 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20  Rating: |
Jim - IMHO, after 11 years, it's probably time to take a closer look at the radiator! I'd suggest the following to help keep the beast cool with the hot rod engine: 1. Thicker core radiator. Measure how much clearance you've got now between the fan blades and the core. If you can go thicker by 1" - 2" and the fan still clears, that plus a "dimple-tube" style core, will help tremendously. 2. Change the fan from a 5 to 6, 7, or 8 blade model, possibly slightly larger in diameter. Don't know if your coach has the torus fan drive like the '06 and later models. If so, make sure it's operating as designed. The fan shroud should be installed properly - you may need to modify it, especially if you increase the fan diameter. 3. Run a 70/30 or 60/40 water/anti-freeze mix in the cooling system. Antifreeze is a lousy conductor of heat, water is much better. So adjust the mix to favor water, based on your temperature extremes and comfort level. (IIRC, Fast Fred runs 70/30 in his '06) 4. Make sure you've got the full-width "mud flap" across the bulkhead behind the rear axle. If yours is missing, replace it. I have the dimensions of the three pieces in a storage box I can dig out for you, if necessary. Don't hang one of those "skirt" things off the back bumper, it will tend to trap heat underneath the coach. 5. As others have mentioned, wrap the exhaust plumbing w/in the engine compartment to reduce heat. More critical on the supply side of the turbo. 6. Use a muffler designed for a turbo application. The internal flow characteristics are different from a non-turbo - check the Donaldson catalog. 7. Finally, double-check the shoes worn by the operator, especially the right one. Inspect carefully for additional lead impregnated in the sole, as this can increase the weight applied to the throttle at inopportune moments. FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1576 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.218.21.153  Rating: N/A |
Good post, RJ... Now, tell me what you might about Pancakes...and the radiator "over heating". Please???... RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1540 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.199 Rating: N/A |
R C, R J will tell you to get a bigger radiator..LOL You have to figure out where you gonna put it! Gomer | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 686 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Hi RJ, A the moment, we're talking about the stock engine in the bus as I have not gone to pick up the T engine. Until the economic world returns to the way it was 5 years ago and/or my son gets done with college, there will NOT be a new radiator in my life, unless it falls off a truck in front of me. Hence my musings about the almost affordable 4107 radiator. A different fan might be do-able. The 4104 fan is bolted to the end of the crankshaft. A taurus drive would let me use an aggressive fan but might let it loaf when the bus is cruising on level ground. 70/30 antifreeze is a little spooky here. It got down to 8 degrees last winter. The "mud flap" in front of engine is in good shape. No "broom" on the bumper. I replaced the rubber seals around the radiator when I got the bus. Wrapping the exhaust and the turbo and selecting a turbo muffler are great ideas. I wasn't thinking that far ahead yet. Actually, the operator's foot will be a problem. The operator is tired of climbing the mountain in first gear and having mopeds honking at us on the freeway on ramps. The current engine is only indicating about 185, about 5 more than it used to, but it never used to go above 180. Could even be the 52 year old gauge. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1844 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20 Rating: N/A |
Jim - OK, modified thinking: 1. Maybe spend some $$ on a radiator flush w/ fresh coolant at the mix ratio you prefer. Don't forget the DD-recommended additive. 2. Do some electrical sleuthing on the temp gauge circuit. How does dash compare to engine compartment? New gauge and sender if worse comes to worse? Or are you chasing a non-existent problem? 3. Remember the Aesop Fable of The Tortoise and The Hare! Not sure which came first - the fable or the 4104! LOL! RCB - IIRC, you've got a Cummins Pancake, don't you? If so, that helps right off the bat. Regardless of what Gomer says, some of the info for Jim applies to your Crown, with a few exceptions: 1. Full width mud flap behind FRONT axle. 2. Belt tension on fan drive set properly? 3. Possibly change fans to a more aggressive or additional blades. 4. Cooling system flush. 5. Radiator shutters working properly? 5. To keep Gomer happy: Because of the fan configuration, it's a lot easier to use a thicker core radiator on your coach, you just have to modify the shroud a little. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1541 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.199 Rating: N/A |
TOLD YA SO LO Thanks RJ, RJ, what does the mud flap behing the front axle do? Gauges,, My oil pressure gauge reads about 50lbs and on the engine it is 40,so I can relate to that. Gomer | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1846 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.124.20 Rating: N/A |
Marvin - On a Crown midship powertrain, the engine's radiator is located where the HVAC condenser compartment is on your 4104. So the full-width mud flap behind the front axle serves the same purpose on his coach as the one behind the rear axle does on GMs. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1542 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 76.4.118.199 Rating: N/A |
thank you my friend, I know that was helpful not only to me but others as well. Would it be ok to have one for the generator operation like that behind the front wheels? Gomer |
