| Author |
Message |
john hughes (209.214.66.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 9:46 pm: | |
Im am new to the world of coaches but I find myself in the market for a mobile office..I know that I cant afford much of a turn key unit plus Im sure I could never find what I need anyway...So, what I thought I would look for is a good rolling chassis: eagle or MCI that has been converted or partially converted but in need of renovation..I have some experience in construction but Im terrified of plumbing and wiring a coach...Maybe my fears are unfounded or maybe theyre justified, I dont know..I do realize that coach conversion is a MAJOR undertaking and I also realize that my ignorance could cost me a bundle and Im hoping and praying that somebody will save me from myself...any advice would be greatly appreciated..thanks,,John |
JayJAy (64.12.102.52)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 10:50 pm: | |
They wire/plumb just like your house. Some special Code provisions apply, but no sweat. Cheers...JJ |
Jerry H. (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 03, 2001 - 3:18 pm: | |
No romex wiring and use a polybutyl tubing and pvc for water vs. copper and soldered joints. |
Dwight (63.16.168.250)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 8:21 pm: | |
Interesting ??
The 1974 GMC Motorhomes, built by General Motors, A name most people trust, had romex wiring and copper soldered water pipes ?? the 1978 model had poly tubing for water and romex for wiring....by the way they both had the RVIA tag on them..
I know I had one of each!! |
Jerry H. (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2001 - 11:40 pm: | |
Dwight:
I can't speak of your '74 GMC. Numerous references, both written and in person, suggest not using a solid copper wire (such as Romex), rather to use a stranded wire - which offers more flexibility. What can I tell you ... it seems logical to me. Maybe some new ideas have emerged in the last 27 years? |
Jerry (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 12:19 am: | |
Side note. I guess I should not have stated "No Romex..." in the original posted message. Use Romex if you wish to power your Beta video player, I'll use stranded wire to power my DVD. Oh, and the polybutyl tubing suggestion is also sound as well. The poly tubing material offers a higher expansion rate, which (should you forget to winterize) could save you money caused by a possible broken copper water pipe. Also, a continuous non-jointed poly tube from the supply manifold in the baggage bay to below the faucet or fixture (minimizes joints) could save you the aggravation of hunting down a potential leaking soldered copper joint. Sorry for the sarcasm, it was the exclamation that triggered it. :-) |
FAST FRED (63.215.231.73)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 5:32 am: | |
The one or two RV that I have seen that got left outside , with out winterizing broke the FITTINGS from the polly tubing.
Still a big pain.
Copper tubing is even less forgiving in a hard freez , but does away with all the problems with growing bugs in the fresh water supply.
If the coach is a full liveaboard the plastic works OK , but if it gets to sit for months at a time the extra cost of the copper will pay for itself in less flushing/sanitizing the water system.
Only need one case of Delli Belly , to have you smelling the FW and windering if its OK to drink, every time you open the tap!
FAST FRED |
Jerry H. (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 7:48 am: | |
Fred:
Very very interesting ... your message made me do multiple searches, finding this link --> http://www.ramhomewarranty.com/ram/topmenu/fyipages/fyipolypipes.html.
We go to trade shows every year and we were impressed by the (supposed) tubing capabilities. Even their written reports looked great. I've even talked with several coach converters, who also use this material.
Thanks for the info -- back to square one on supply lines.
Jerry |
Jerry (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2001 - 5:56 pm: | |
Would it be safe to assume that the water source housed in a (similar) plastic tank would provide the same ill effects of "Delli Belly" if not properly winterized, along with the plastic pipe it travels through? Proper winterization being the key.
I've been trying to do the homework on "Polybutylene" vs "Polyethylene". I haven't read very many positive things about the butyl variety, so maybe the Polyethylene is the way to go? PVC has worked well (a plastic) over the years ... I can't imagine we can't do better than copper for such a mobile application. |
FAST FRED (63.215.233.214)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 5:23 am: | |
The Plastic that tanks are made of seems different from the stuff in flexable tubing.
The tanks are also boxed and sealed from LIGHT which kills the plastic , and promotes the growth of stuff in the FW system.
Although I use 1/2 soldered copper tubing , if the cash was unlimited I would use 5/8 copper tubing with flairs at each joint.
The good $40 Imperial flair tool from the refrigeration guys , not the $1.99 from Sears to create the flairs.
The advantage is the system can be easily repaired ,
even if its inside the cabinets , with out fire and if needed the tubing can be taken out and annealed with a torch ,,,outside.
The pipes burried in cabinets get a hard life with heavy cans , pots and toolboxes hitting them.
FAST FRED |
Dwight (63.16.168.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 11:54 pm: | |
Well,
To Jerry, I still have the 1978 GMC Motorhome with the romex, have had zero problems with it.that is only about 23 years and 130,000 miles...But I must say if you are not tidy with any wire it will fail due to vibration, the romex was held in place by spraying the foam insulation on it, Air Stream just holds it in place with the fiberglass insulation...
But I can not say that about the stranded wire used for the 12 volt wiring on the GMC...
No sarcasm, no guessing, no assuming, no reading sales literature, got my comments/opinions the old way, hands on experience
As for Fred, you are right, I never had bad tasting or smelling water with the copper pipe which was installed in my 1974 GMC, but have had bad taste and smell with the plastic stuff... |
jerry (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 13, 2001 - 8:18 am: | |
To Dwight & Fred:
It's really not worth wasting the space of this BBS debating the use of Romex and plastic pipe -- I bow to both of you and your years of experience. I am glad that this BBS is monitored by both of you so you both could point out how clearly wrong I was. I should, however, in the future save my money from purchasing various resource books and publications; save my time and money from visiting trade shows where products are promoted; offer no opinion on any BBS based on what I've read, what others have told me, or what [my] logic [may] dictate. I'll reserve opinion (I guess) only after I've done it or have had the numerous years of experience as you both have. Dwight, I am happy your Romex has survived 130k of miles ... I'll still choose NOT to use it. With regard to copper vs. plastic, I pass on any comment as I think I conceded to Freds comment.
You two must be the hit at a party :-)
Jerry
PS: If you MUST respond to this one more time, why not just send it directly to me. Thanks. |
FAST FRED (63.208.87.1)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 5:39 am: | |
Sorry Jerry ,dont take this personally but,
{"PS: If you MUST respond to this one more time, why not just send it directly to me. Thanks." }
YOU posted on the newbees board , so the responses , what ever they are are,
FOR THE BOARD, NOT JUST for YOU!
IT would be nice to have a majic personal answer man,,
BUT the information is for all folks that have the same questions and same problems.
Many that read these boards have no intention of converting a coach..
They want to purchase a finished unit and not end up with a poorly constructed "back yard un-enginered MY WAY" piece of junk!
Your questions ONLY start a thread of information , that hopefully OTHERS can use.
Otherwise we could all use E-mail and no one would be a bit wiser about anything.
The fact that everything posted is somones OPINION ,
hopefully based in real life observations ,
lets the READER sift thru and take what seems OK , and forget the rest.
Keep on asking questions , its how we all learn!
FAST FRED |
RANDY SANDERS (63.62.241.14)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 6:09 am: | |
I JUST BOUGHT AN MCI ALREADY CONVERTED. I WANTED TO CONVERT MY OWN, I HAVE ALL OF THE SKILLS EXCEPT ONE. MY WIFE POINTED OUT THAT I DIDN'T HAV E THE PATIANCE. WELL, SHE IS RIGHT AND I AM ENJOYING OUR MCI. THAT'S MY ADVICE. SEVERAL SIGHTS OFFER THEM FROM 25,000.00 AND UP. IF YOU WANT THE SIGHTS, E-MAIL ME .
RANDY
RSPB2@MSN.COM |
Jerry H. (65.2.65.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2001 - 2:43 pm: | |
Fred & Dwight:
Let me go back to the beginning. My first error was stating, “use a polybutyl tubing.” Although my intentions were correct, it should have read “…polyethylene.” Polybutylene tubing did have major problems and is no longer made in the US. I apologize for stating the wrong poly-suffix.
The issue of whether the polyethylene tubing is better than the copper pipe (or visa-versa) will most likely continue to be one of debate. In any case, using the “cross-linked” (PEX) tubing with its greater temperature rating (of approx. 210-deg.) would be suggested, as the non-PEX type can lose strength above 140-deg. Fittings (which are crimped) to terminate the ends of the tubing are available in both the plastic and brass variety. The pipe does offer a high expansion quality and should not present a problem with regard to freezing – assuming proper installation was also done. In any case, proper winterization should be conducted.
With regard to (as you call it) “Delli Belly” (bugs in the water) being present in plastic tubing and not copper, when a system hasn’t been properly flushed – and left to stand. Although the oxidation qualities of copper pipe may kill your Delli Belly parasites, it may also be toxic to humans. Copper also has the quality of being able to corrode from both the inside and out. I do have copper in my home, and do not fear any potential issues with regard to toxicity from oxidation. I do, however, know the pitfalls from corroding copper due to the water source, which may give the polyethylene one up on copper (again … opinion).
Whether or not Delli Belly is found only in plastic pipe may continue to be one for the BBS and discussion groups. The water source from which the system (copper or plastic) was supplied should also be factored in. This does not even take into account any purification system.
With regard to Romex. As I think stated by someone earlier, RVIA does follow the “NEC” (National Electrical Code) guidelines with regard to wiring, whereas Boat manufacturers follow the “ABYC” guidelines. The use of a solid wire (such as “Romex”) is not allowed, due to the potential for breaking, fatigue, etc. The RVIA’s only requirement, aside from following the NEC guidelines, is that the Romex be “UL” approved.
So with all that being said, where does that leave it? Well, use “UL” approved Romex if you wish, or stranded cable if you wish – you’ll [evidently] be violating no codes with regard to the material. Likewise, use “polyethylene” piping or copper -- to each his or her own. Make your decision based on the qualified knowledge and/or experience, which is before you.
Lastly. I never said that the responses on this board (or category) were solely for me. I simply suggested that if you wanted to continue on a “who’s right or wrong basis” that you might save room on the BBS and send it directly to me, as I don’t see it as a right or wrong issue.
I have tried to do my homework in answering this recent post, as I know your years of first-hand knowledge might be quick to dissect and rebut all that I’ve posted. I think courtesy, whether it be on a BBS or in a room chatting with someone in person, is my only issue with “…taking it personally.”
When you use the exclamation ( ! ) mark, it is no different that raising your voice or shouting in person when you’re trying to make a point. Your points are not Gospel; they (as you have said before) are opinion. Discussing or debating whether or not the sky is Blue with someone who insists it is Green may warrant a raise of tone or an exclamation. For both you and Dwight, I too was simply posting my opinions.
I’ll stick to NOT using Romex and I’ll take my chances with polyethylene piping. I do want to thank you both for inspiring me to make numerous phone calls to various people at the following organizations (which further strengthened my “opinions”); PPI (Plastic Pipe Institute), RVIA (Recreation Vehicle Industry Assoc.), NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency) who governs the NEC, NMMA (National Marine Manufacturers Assoc.), ABYC (American Boat Yacht Council) and NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Assoc.).
With deepest sincerity,
Jerry |
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