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Luis (Sundancer) (63.204.106.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
Some of us are new to this field, so some answers may be common sense, but what are the pros and cons. Some of you have been there, done that. Would you do it again and why? |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 12:36 pm: | |
all electric....i'm a power-pole full-timer.... i have a 6.5 kw onan and a 3 kw honda for traveling....no battery bank or invertor.... propane on the outdoor grill... |
Luis (Sundancer) (63.204.106.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 12:46 pm: | |
Do you run a gen full time if not hooked up to shore power? Do you run a regular house reefer? Do you have to balance when camping? |
cgoodwin (208.12.28.149)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 1:29 pm: | |
Sundancer,
What are you doing with your coach? If you plan on camping away from power/water (boondocking) you will need a battery bank, if you run anything off the coach's starting batteries and they run down...You will not be starting your bus.
Most conversions for use other than PP (Power pole at a park or in a friends driveway) have a battery bank, a genset, a cord for shore power and an inverter/charger. When running the bus the alternator charges first the coach batteries (starting batteries) and once charged is switched to charge the "house" batteries (the batteries for the "house". When you stop and switch the ignition off the coach batteries are isolated from drains placed on the house batteries. Your lights, etc run from the house batteries until they become low, at a given point your inverter/charger will automatically start the genset and power from the genset will be used by the inverter/charger to both power the draws (lights, AC, whatever) as well as charging the house batteries. Once they are charged the genset will be turned off.
A good inverter/charger will not only start and stop the generator, but will sense shore power if connected and use this to power the house and charge the house batteries as long as shore power is present, and not start the genset as it is not required. Some will even use the generator or shore power to power the house and supplement with power from the batteries if the load is too great.
The unit I have read the most about is the Trace SW4024 (4kw/24vdc) and at better than $2000 is is not a cheap unit, but it sure beats the hell out of a big bank of frankenstien switches, a bunch of gauges and some old battery chargers - when you consider what it does, how it does it and how well it does it, you could not buy all the manual components for that price - suddenly $2000 looks really good.
As for running an electric refer, I just started a thread on this same subject titled "110vac refer" which has had some interesting replies. at the end of the day any regular home refer will draw at least 1kw per day and will drain a single large storage battery in just one day. Now if you have a bank of 8 to 10 batteries you could probably do a good 3 to 4 days running just on battery power.
Suplementing with solar - Not really what it is made out to be. The best deal i have found on cells is at beyondoilsolar, they have Sharp 185W/24v/7.7 amp panels for about $647 each or $3.50 per watt. with two of these you might offset your refer consumption a bit, but it would cost you $1300.00 and you would still need the batteries to be charged by the cells... How long do you need to stay in one location without moving - for most people I know it is a 3 day weekend or even on a month or two trip they rarely stay in ome place more than a few days.
Refer efficiency - this is an area worth looking into. In china they have reduced the power consumption of existing refers by as much as 60% simply by adding insulation and insulating the coils on the back from the refer. The refer takes heat from inside the box and radiates it away with the coils on the back, obviously some of this heat radiates back inot the refer since the coild is mounted to the back and it is usually up against a wall. if one were to slide a sheet of mylar/foam insulation between the back of the refer and the coil, mount the refer in a cabinet with extra insulation on the sides (say 3" of fiberglass), then use small computer fans to draw cool air from outside, pass it over the coils and exhaust it above the coils, thereby cooling the coils and reducing the load on the refer - these computer fans can be powered by a single small solar cell and would work when the sun was out and not when it was cool outside. Furthermore, some refers, mine included, have little heating coils on the sides, these keep the outside of the refer warm to stop condensation - call me silly, but heating the refer seems a little stupid if you are looking for effeciency....I disconnected mine and the transformer which powered them.
A friend of mine (thereby hearsay) told me that a refer produces 1kw of heat a day, seems to me that the same computer fans I spoke of could be vented into teh interior when the outside temp drops below say 65F and that heat could then be used to warm the interior...
I used to camp in the desert regularly, we would pack food in 4 ice chests and tape them shut, they would then be wrapped in burlap for additional insulation. In northern Africa we would pour water over the burlap whenever it was available, this would evaporate and cool, the cooler further. If we stopped for more than a night we would bury the coolers we were not actively using to keep them cool and cover the mound with branches for shade. In this way we were able to keep a cooler of food and block ice cold for up to two weeks even in daytime temps of 100F +
Obviously this is not required in a bus but using some of the same concepts could reduce power requirements quite a bit. I personally just do not like propane refers, I don't like the expense and I don't like the fact theat they don't seem to make any that fit under a counter or that hold more than a 6 pack and a few bits of cheese.
These are the issues I am dealing with at this very moment - happy to share what I am finding out.
Chris |
Deacon (150.199.209.42)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 2:24 pm: | |
Chris, that was one of the finest replies I have seen.
My opinion: An all electric system is dependant on one source, electric, a failure can end an otherwise good time for the less technical busnut. Haveing a backup system does not mean useing it full time but limiting its size and use when the main system fails can keep you going. Duel systems such as 12/120v, LPgas can cool your food, heat your coach/water.
We live in the rual Ozarks and it is common to lose power due to storms, etc. Our LP furnace requires electric to circulate air, with the power out we use the LP stove for heat, if the LP runs out we use an electric 2 burner hot plate to cook or the microwave. Our well pump is 120v, an invertor is used to fill jugs then shut down. In short, every system has a backup system that may not operate everything fully, but we can survive (and do quite often) for days.
John 4104 & 4106 |
Luis (Sundancer) (63.204.106.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 2:50 pm: | |
Thanks for the reply Chris and John. We mainly will be doing desert camping and only for 3-4 nights max. Other than that we'll be doing rv parks and such. We've had motorhomes before and LP has worked fine for us. We are just exploring all options. I realize there is a danger that comes with LP, but if done correctly and safely, it should and will work out just fine.
What about costs? battery bank, inverter, charger, versus propane tanks and the propane itself over the long haul. We'll still need a generator, so that is the same either way.
Also one more thing, diesel generator or LP should we decide to go with propane? Cost, of course is a factor, but not all that matters. |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.108)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 3:00 pm: | |
Your question is asking about types but you are not giving any "needs" or "usage"
What are you planning to do with a coach or, why did you refer to an All Electric coach?
Coachs come in as many variations as can be imagined.
All electrics are generally, parked by poles in parks. There are some that have battery banks and solar assist but while traveling under battery/inverter, they power usage is somewhat curtailed. To camp without power from a pole means you need to run a generator off and on too keep the battery charged. Solar assist is helpful if you design for it. You need to crunch a lot of numbers. My panels are 7 amp and were about $350 each. There is an advantage to solar, but they need to be in direct sun to work well.
Then you have the coach with Battery/inverter, solar assist and diesel gen and diesel furnace. These can go many places as long as the diesel holds up. The diesel fuel access to the tank is usually at the point that if you run out of diesel for the gen and heat, you can still start the engine and fuel up again.
Some of these coaches use the propane option for heat. No effect if you run out of propane. Generally, one might have electric heat as well so as not to burn the diesel while in a park.
Then you have the coach with the battery/inverter and solar assist with Propane. Much like the diesel unit only with a Propane fuel supply. An advatage some add will be to have portable propane tanks. These can be removed and filled without moving the bus. The propane can fuel stove, refrigerator, heat, hot water and outside grill and/or any extra heating needs you might have.
Having experienced the watt buster furnices failures, I went to a different heat.
The watt buster furnice has a fan with a huge draw of amps and will pull the battery voltage down quite easily. The furnice has a safety built in, if the voltage drops to a certain point, the fire wont lite, but keeps the fan blowing. It can be a very cold adventure.
The heat I used are marine heaters, and use no power to heat your coach. These come in propane or diesel flavours. A consideration if you wish to boon a lot.
These are the basics, a bus can be built in many more variations depending on what your usage might be.
Full timing with yourself, fulltiming with you and your wife, full timing with you , your wife and family.
The above each has different space requirements and would be similar with a vacation only bus, except you could get away with a bit tighter quarters for vacation since you only live in it for a couple weeks.
Booning, no outside power except your genny to charge the battery. These types of buses need particular attention to building with the most power stingy designs you can dream up. The longer your power holds up, the longer you can boon.
The lifestyle you desire in a bus will fully determine the direction you should look at and how you should design for energy savings.
Not all buses are the same on the inside, though on the outside, they look a carbon copy.
There are many types of heating systems, energy hungry and not.
If you are converting a bus, will you be visiting the cold of Minnesota in the Winter or the Hot desert heat of Arizona in the summer? You will need some really great insulation in that bus, no matter what kind of life it is converted for.
All the variations of buses are great, all electric, electric with battery/inverter; solar issist, battery/inverter solar assist with propane or diesel. But if you build the wrong one, it will be like fitting a square peg into a round hole and your trips will be with some anxious moments when the bus does not fit the need.
When you know more about how you wish to use a bus and a good idea of all the different systems, then come back and we will be happy to help.
Next topic would be, what kind of Wire do I use to wire the bus? LOLOLOL
"IMAGINE your DREAMS"
cd |
niles (4.4.112.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 3:15 pm: | |
LOL - I think we should follow THE CODE when it comes to wire - LOL
niles |
Luis (Sundancer) (63.204.106.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 3:18 pm: | |
Thanks cd
I just thought I would ask the experts before I start converting. The more feedback, the better I will be informed. I'm leaning to LP because it is probably more within my budget and I'm familiar with its installation and use.
PS what size wire should I use to wire the bus? |
bowlingshoegiverouter (63.185.80.108)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 5:42 pm: | |
12 |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.215)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 7:41 pm: | |
LOL BowlingShoeGiverouter
Well Niles
what code would that be? If you check out some of the multimillion dollar rigs, they have their own code! They don't follow the RV code for wiring.
I do agree with BBowlingShoeGiverouter, though. I would run stranded #12 through Out the conversion. I feel Marine wire to be superior since the strands wont corrode and the cable is a bit more stable, able to take the pounding of a boat agianst the waves.
When you wire with #12, use cb's to feed it at the proper amp.
If you run a smaller conductor size, downsize the circuit breaker that protects it.
If you branch the circuit in the conversion with a smaller size conductor from the #12, FUSE IT at the lesser amperage.
If you are camping in the desert, better have plenty of insulation to keep the heat out.
The topic of insulation will go over many types and forms of insulations, including roof coatings.
My conversions has R9 foam on the wall studs and double faced foil poly (1/4" thick) on the foam facing the outside wall to reflect heat.
I had no room for foam in the roof so the double sided poly goes there as well as the floor, with a reflective coating of KoolSeal on the roof. This will be fine for my conversion as I plan no extreme temperature excursions.
COSTS?
>What about costs? battery bank, inverter, charger, versus propane tanks and the propane itself over the long haul. We'll still need a generator, so that is the same either way.<
Costs are as extreme as you can find them.
Battery vary depending on 6volt batts to 12volt batt(200-400)
inverters, again vary greatly, the Xantrex/Trace 4024 about 2000 and has built in charger and much more.
PROPANE-this is a hotly contended subject, I can feel the proponents lining up on one side and the opponents onthe other already.
My view, Propane is great, the RV industry uses it extensively for its low cost. Put in a good sized "Fixed" tank (especially if you put in a propane genset) and have a portable tank so you can fill without moving the bus.
To me propane is safe, I have never had a problem with it. But understand how propane leaks "puddle" and how difficult it is to move it as a gas. You don't want propane to leak inside at all. All this to come when you are ready.
"Imagine"
cd |
niles (4.4.112.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 9:32 pm: | |
CD,
LOL - you do know I was humorously refering to the discussion about the Liberty conversion wiring on a previous thread? I think BSG was too.
niles |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.218)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 4:12 am: | |
They arent the only ones, see you were serious and didnt even know it.
Amazing what you can learn here on BNO
"Imagine"
cd |
Luis (Sundancer) (63.204.106.234)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 5:40 am: | |
Thanks to all for your input. Like I said, we are new to this and I'm sure we'll need all the brain power we can muster. We've actually been thinking about this for quite a while, so we have some ideas about what we want to do. But now that we have actually got our bus (MC102A3 6v92) it is time to make final decisions and do it. |
FAST FRED (4.247.13.199)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 5:56 am: | |
Propane Generators,
One discussion always comes up Diesel Vs Propane for the noisemaker.
As Always there are religions on both sides.
My view is if you have a TEC (Total Electric Coach) or boondock close to Hell in the summer where the noisemaker must grind away night & day,weeks at a time, a Water cooled diesel , in a good soundpruf box on as slide out with thru the roof exhaust makes sense. A seperate "off road" diesel fuel tank, of about 50 to 100Gal would help.Cheapo house fridge, deepfreeze,range HW heater , dishwasher washingmachine, ect can be found used to help pay for gen set.Only real Pain is requirement for at least 240V 50A EVERY campsite may force you into less desirable new campgrponds.
For the folks that boondock a bit furthur North and may only need Air Cond daylight or seldome to never, the lowerweight,lower cost noise, stench and maint of a propane unit makes more sense.
With NO air cond requirement a Propane coach does it all in the boonies!And doesnt suffer as much from non use as either gas or diesel noisemakers.
A reasonable sized propane tank will outlast most FW or waste cap by 3 or 4X in duration.
Your fridge/freezer , cooking INCLUDING roasting and baking , "unlimited" hot water . and heat are all it takes to live large!
A couple of Solars to make up for your reading lights, TV, sat dish ,inverter toys (microwave, blender, food processer , mixer) and yes charge the battereys is about a grand (with regulator) .
Additionally the solar panels will charge the batts while the coach is NOT in use .
This alone can save the cost of replacing batts every 2 or 3 years instead of every 7 (good medium $$ deepcycles) or 12 (Top drawer Surettes , Rolls ).
Keep up a list of what you want the coach to do , and the choice of a TEC (PP) or propane Camper will be EZ for you .
Enjoy! And WELCOME to a great Hobby!
FAST FRED |
john marbury (Jmarbury) (66.82.9.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 8:29 am: | |
Having no prior experience with RVs, I'm not sure what a reasonable sized propane tank would be.
I expect to do alot of boondocking. If I converted my Honda EV 6010 to propane, what would be the Minimum size tank to have. I currently have a 40# tank that fits nicely in the fuel tank compartment. To go with MORE capacity, I'd have to use another bay with required Modifications and I'd rather not. What do you all think?
John |
FAST FRED (4.245.230.91)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 9:00 am: | |
If your going to need much genset at all a real RV perminantly tank measured in GALLONS rather than pounds will be needed.
A 40# tank is only about 9 gal ,enough for a month or two of camping with no genset, and operating all your lifestyle goodies.
But a half gal an hour is about what a genset will eat while producing Air Cond , so a 60 to 75 GAL tank makes a nice supply with out running to refill very often.
Don't know what coach your converting , so have nothing to recomend where to install a tank.
ON my 4106 Sportscar the rear bay streetside was partially blocked by the stock battery compartment.
I was able to find a used 60# tank for house service and a 40gal tank seperate for the ONHO 6.5KW.And still have 3/4 of the aft bay empty.
Everything fits on the battery side , eventually I will wander over to a pro propane place and get a set of remote fills (common , cheap & EZ) to make it simpler to refill.(less bending).
Whatever the noisemaker choice , enough fuel is Manditory.
FAST FRED |
cgoodwin (208.12.29.127)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 9:17 pm: | |
Just my opinion... I lived for almost 8 years in Mexico, on the Baja. Everything is Propane, water heat, house heat, refers, grills, etc. In the summer not a month went by without waking in the middle of the night to a bang, the next day you would hear that the Gomez family was looking for a new house..No kidding here.
Personally I love propane and like everything else it has a place and a use. Propane MUST be properly vented and IMHO sealed from all other compartments and the storage area fitted with a leak detector. DO NOT store your propane in the same undevided compartment with your batteries or ANY non-gas proof switch including the work light in the propane area. Do not mount your propane above anything else (propane is heavier than air). DO NOT mount a BBQ anywhere near the storage area. If you have a propane leak the slightest spark will trun your bus into a hole in the ground.
That said, I am putting in a Jenn Air cooktop converted to propane and most likely a propane water heater... I will have leak detectors in both the storage area and in the cabinet under the cooktop as well as in the coach itself. The storage area will have a wire mesh floor vent and be lighted with an LED light fixture turned on by a magnetic reed switch on the door.
Again IMHO....And that of One-Arm Gomez
Chris |
LNelson-4106 (12.218.106.169)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:20 am: | |
Here is what I did with my 06, still in progress but used often.
I have two banks of house batteries. One 6 (6 volt golf cart) and one 4. The 6 bank runs the house 12v systems. The 4 runs the "entertainment" inverter/charger which I already owned, a 700w Heart, I had on a boat. I also have a 2500w Trace connected to the chassis batteries used to power one rooftop A/C while underway. My bus was an entertainer and already had a 7kw Onan, which runs great but is old.
I installed a 6 gallon RV propane/elec water heater "in series" with a 10 gallon small electric water heater, with the "cold" water entering the 10 gallon heater first, then entering the 6 gallon RV water heater. That way I have plenty of hot water (I have a full size bathtub) and can also have hot water in boondocking locations, via the 6 gal heater. I have a RV fridge, 3 way, two door. I have one 30,000 btu furnace which ain't enough in blistering cold campsites, but I piped propane and wiring for a future furnace. Having gone the elec. fridge route with my houseboat, I found it to eat up a 880 amp reserve amp battery bank OVERNIGHT. Also, don't forget that the inverter is also a humunguous CHARGER that wants lots of AC AMPS when you start up the genset. You will know when that charger is trying to charge up the batteries that have gone to 50-60% charge. Anyway, this is what I did and it is working for me. |
Luis (Sundancer) (67.125.168.247)
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 7:34 pm: | |
Thanks to all for your humble opinions. I put out a question, and now I only have 1000 more that have come up from all the answers I have received. I can see this is going to be fun and expensive. |
FAST FRED (4.245.230.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 5:28 am: | |
To save everyones typing the same stuff over & over&over & over ,
check the archives with the next question.
FAST FRED |
Johnny (4.174.91.84)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:40 pm: | |
I would suggest a gasoline genset over propane: cheaper, more power for the same engine size, & IIRC, fuel is cheaper (even at $2.10/gallon). Mine will be a gasser, but my conversion will be a total 12V coach. |
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