| Author | Message | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.186) Rating: N/A |
A couple of months ago we had this long thread on another bulletin board about "A guy walks into the Texas DMV and says"..... We all pretty much agreed that in Texas you must have a Class B non commercial license which allows you to drive any NON COMMERCIAL vehicle over 26K lbs and pull a trailer up to 10K lbs. With that I went to get my non commercial Class B license, and completed it successfully. That was two months ago. Today, I took a friend down to get the same license in MY bus, and the agent said, "you must have a class A CDL. It doesn't matter what you turned that vehicle into, it only matters what it was originially manufactured as, and it was manufactured as a passenger carrying bus." The clerk was adamant that this is a commercial vehicle which requires commercial insurance and a Class A CDL. She wrote on my friend's application, "denied,---applicant's vehicle is a bus, NOT a recreational vehicle." What have you guys done? Does everyone have a Class A CDL? What the heck does commercial insurance mean? Didn't someone post one time that they got a letter from the Texas DMV clarifying the position that if the vehicle is no longer commercial and used for recreational/private use, then the commercial applications no longer exist? (The weight restrictions still exist). Another thing to think about--in Texas, motorhomes are exempt from property taxes, buses are not. I have a bad vision of my local appraisal district coming by to visit and slap about a $150K value on this thing. I'm kind of worried now. Another footnote: the DMV clerk asked for my registration and the only indication of bus is at the line that says "Body style=BU". The rest of the registration says that it is a passenger vehicle more than 6000lbs with a carrying capacity of 0, whatever that means. I don't know what all that means, but I sure don't like what happened today, and according to the clerk, I am not driving it legally with a Class B, commercial exempt license. HELP!! David Anderson | ||
| Doug Potter (Doug86newell) (63.74.232.26)
Rating: N/A |
I am curious about this now. My coach never carried commercial passengers, but I don't have any special liscense. I have never been stopped, so it hasn't come up yet. I weigh in at 33,000lbs. Doug | ||
| Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68) Rating: N/A |
i have a Texas class AM cdl, all endorsements, TPX... thats double, triples, passenger, tanker and hazardous...which also makes the motorcyle endorsement commercial....the old 5105 gm "the man show" has "MH" as body style on the title...it was imported from missouri in the '90's...it's hard and frustrating to fight texas DPS and educate them at the same time...i'm lucky in a sense that i got a chauffers' license in 1977.. and that evolved into the class a cdl in 1992... i did have to take and pass all the wriiten exams, but the driving was grandfathered....i think i'd make an annonomous call to the austin headquarters of the DPS and ask exactly what you need....then get them to fax you the info.... | ||
| Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68) Rating: N/A |
david..... give me a cal... 832-746-6658.. i just talked to the dps office.... they are awaiting your call.... jim | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.222) Rating: N/A |
Jim, I just called you and left a message. email me at daanderson7@academicplanet.com and let me know a good time to call you back. Doug Potter: I thought about the same thing, but I didn't argue with the agent. I knew that would get me nowhere at this time. I wanted to get the board's input before I tried to argue with a clerk. David Anderson | ||
| bowlingshoegiverouter (65.179.200.29) Rating: N/A |
that happens...just hit her on a bad day...gov. employees are very forgetful tho...go back next week,will be a completely different story,hopefully ,you will get a different clerk. | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.235) Rating: N/A |
I just got an email from my buddy who was trying to get the license. It appears below. David, I called DPS in Austin (512) 424-2000 and ask what license was needed for an RV that was converted from a bus and the guy told me the same thing as the lady in Jourdanton. He ask how many passengers it was build to carry and I said 40 and told him it was now an RV but he said it had to be licensed for what it was originally made to do. That would be a class B CLD. He said for that you had to take written tests on: 1 commercial A/B (that's what we took) 2 General Knowledge Part 1-2-3 in CDL book 3 Passenger Part 4 in CDL book 4 Air Brakes Part 5 in CDL book 5 Pre-Trip Part 10 in CDL book And then he said something about part 10-11-12 which may be the commercial A/B part. A CDL costs $60 for a 6 year license. It would be a CDL class B. A class A is for semi's and vehichles pulling more than 10,000 pounds I would think all that you would have to do is take the other written tests And then the $60. --John NEW POST----- I'm going to call Houston tomorrow per Jim's instructions and see if I can resolve it in writing with them. David Anderson | ||
| John Rigby (24.174.238.253)
Rating: N/A |
All the DMV people I talk to say for a RV ( what my 4104 is Registed as, built now as ) You need a regular drivers licence. I think you are tring to drill to deep, its an RV . John | ||
| JImmci9 (209.240.205.68) Rating: N/A |
the other 4104 here in traders is registered as a "private bus".... "bus" being the key word... if it had said MH (for motorhome), instead of BU (for bus) on the registration, all would have been better, i'll bet...be interesting to see what the lady here in houston has to say... | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.14)
Rating: N/A |
I think it boils down to a legal question that deals with a private individuals ability to "remanufacture" a vehicle to a name and purpose of his choosing and convenience. In general, the Feds have said you just cannot do that, and in most guidlines the term "as originally manufactured" comes into play. I would just go to a different clerk, or as suggested, come back tomorrow when that one is in a better mood. | ||
| Jim-Bob (64.12.116.135) Rating: N/A |
Don't know about y'all over in Texas, but here in Florida, you need a class B CDL for single COMMERCIAL vehicles and an A for tractor/trailer combos. Believe that's a Federal reg so your clerk is mistaken there. Concensis around the country seems to be that if the vehicle is privately owned, non revenue, (less than 16 passengers) you can drive it with a regular operator's license. For sure in FL, if it's private, and the title says "motorhome", you are O.K. with regular operator's license. I feel your problem arose when you attempted to be too honest. Don't do that. Don't go to that office again. Figure out what the next clerk needs to hear. For instance, in it's present condition, your MOTORHOME seats about 5 or 6, RIGHT? Have interior pictures with you to show them. And by the way, YOU "remanufactured" that vehicle into a motorhome. I've seen pictures & no reasonable person would agree that it is a passenger bus. When Buddy Greg sells a 1.3 million dollar Prevost CONVERSION, are they licensing it as a COMMERCIAL BUS? Does the zillionaire owner have a class B CDL? Didn't think so. But Prevost certainly did build that shell as a bus, just delivered it without seats. (Maybe taking some pictures/info about Liberty/Marathon/Vantare/Mellinium coaches would help explain to the poor clerk.) She may be picturing a yellow school bus conversion. (Most folks do when I say "bus conversion". | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.160.215.59) Rating: N/A |
I couldn't agree more with Jim-Bob, the fact is, if you give the average bureaucrat too much info, they will find a way to strangle you with it. Tell the nice desk jockey what they need to hear to get what you need from them...and fiegn ignorance of all else. Life is so much easier that way. Brian | ||
| niles (4.4.112.82) Rating: N/A |
Jim-Bob , touche , I'm from Fla too - so no knowledge of texas Motor Vehicle Code - but I'm sure if you search the Texas Motor Vehicle Code you're sure to find an exemption for the required CDL when operating private vehicles (not-for-hire) of this class - or better yet call Buddy Gregg or one of the other Big Bus Sales Companies in Texas and ask them for some assistance as I am sure this comes up quite often when dealing with zillionaires and their Prevosts Niles (not a zillionaire - but has H3) P.S. There are no federal regulations requiring any state to mandate a CDL for any 'private' vehicle - Federal laws deal with interstate commerce , transportation , and the manufacture and sale of the vehicle itself | ||
| bowlingshoegiverouter (65.179.208.96) Rating: N/A |
if you give anybody..too much info...learned that selling...just tell them enough to make the sale...like above said...you have a motorhome... | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.137)
Rating: N/A |
David, as we learned on the other thread, what you did in getting your B nonCDL most closely follows what DA BOOK says is required. I haven't wanted to deal with the followthru yet but in the meantime I have dropped into two different TX DPS testing offices, one in Richardson and one in Irving. I got answers that were the polar opposites from each other. In Richardson, the answer was that I needed the B nonCDL. In Irving, she said that if it ain't being used commercially, you don't need a CDL Period. I even asked, "Are you SURE?" and she said if the vehicle is for recreational use, all you need is a Class C normal. And she was wearing a full uniform with a big shiny badge and everything! ;) Now I did not prompt her and tell her it was a former bus, and I did not say anything about it having a GVWR of > 26K, but was so happy to hear that I got out of there. Wish I'd gotten it in writing. Now, I don't entirely trust that she knows the full letter of the law, but ya know if this many peace officers differ on what the rules are, I'll bet that a typical beat patrolperson isn't going to know with certainty that you should be getting a ticket. Especially if told that the DPS office told you you had the right classification. | ||
| bowlingshoegiverouter (63.185.96.158) Rating: N/A |
Texas law,if it is licensed as a motorhome,you JUST need a regular license....I'd find somebody that KNOWS & get her to tell the dmv,that woman with the shiney badge KNOWS.. If your bus is licensed as a motorhome,GOOD, if not,you need to get it done..be SURE to have pictures to submit,especially the bathroom,they like about 4 pictures....this is in Texas..can't tell you about other states | ||
| Bob (Bobb) (65.88.96.76)
Rating: N/A |
I'm not from Texas, but I drove through it once. It seems the answers may be found in the Texas drivers manual: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/DLhandbook.pdf CLASSIFIED DRIVER’S LICENSE (Texas Transportation Code, Section 521) The following listed Class A, B, C, and M licenses will be issued to persons who are exempt from obtaining a Commercial Driver’s License or persons who are not required to obtain a Commercial Driver’s License: .......... 2. Class B driver’s license permits a person to drive the following vehicles, except a motorcycle or moped: a. a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, and any such vehicle towing either a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed 10,000 pounds, or a farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed 20,000 pounds; b. a bus with a seating capacity of 24 passengers or more, including the driver; and c. a vehicle included in Class C. Exemptions: Persons operating the following vehicles are exempt from a Commercial Driver’s License CDL: 4. A recreational vehicle that is driven for personal use; So I would think the definitive answer is not is it a bus, but is it a commercial vehicle. Obviously if it is a bus that is you rv, you don't need a commercial license.. | ||
| niles (4.4.112.82) Rating: N/A |
Thanks Bob, I knew it would be there - kick em with their own Code niles | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.216) Rating: N/A |
I've been perusing the Texas Transportation Code, all 91 pages. As we discussed 2 months ago on the MAK board, in Texas if it is greater than 26K lbs, you MUST have at least a Class B non commercial Classified Driver's License. (I currently have such a license) This is in Section 521 of the code, and the Escappee website verifies that on their link, "How to become a Texan." The section, however, is ambiguous. It states: CLASSIFIED DRIVER'S LICENSE (Texas Transportation Code, Section 521) The following listed Class A, B, C, and M licenses will be issued to persons who are exempt from obtaining Commercial Driver's License or persons who are not required to obtain a Commercial Driver's License: 2. Class B driver's license permits a person to drive the following vehicles, except a motorcycle or moped: a. gross vehicle rating greater than 26k lbs and towing a trailer not to exceed 10K lbs. b. a bus with seating capacity of more than 24 passengers c. a vehicle included in class C. Here is the ambiguity. On the Commercial Driver's license in Section 522 of the code you must have a Code P endorsement which authorizes the driving of vehicles carrying passengers. So, one would think if the Eagle is still a bus, I would qualify for a Class B non commercial Classified Driver's License, since my coach was "originally manufactured" as a bus designed to carry more than 24 passengers. However, Section 522 states I have to have a "P" endorsement to carry passengers. Note, it DOES NOT say passengers for hire. It says passengers. Of course I don't have to convince you guys. I have to get this straight with the Texas DMV. By the way, I didn't offer any info. My friend walked out the door with the agent to take the driving test. She looked at the Eagle and walked back in and said it was a bus, therefore requiring a CDL. She was stern in saying that it does not matter if it is a motor home inside or not. It was originally manufactured as a bus. Hopefully, I can resolve this tomorrow. David Anderson | ||
| RJ Long (67.181.211.253) Rating: N/A |
David - When you call Houston, ask them to fax or email you a copy of the following section out of the Texas Transportation Code: 502.294 Also ask them to fax or email you, again, from the TTC, the definition of a recreational vehicle or motorhome. This too, along with the info Bob B provided, should help clear up the mess. And don't forget Marc's suggestion, either! HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Niles (4.4.112.82) Rating: N/A |
David, First of all I have not read the Texas Motor Vehicle Code - but from the excerpts provided , I see no reference in the Code as to the 'original manufacture' of the vehicle - the Code appears to address the 'use' of the vehicle - previous posts are correct that you can request the supervisor show you the verbage in the code that references the 'original manufacture' provision they are referencing - I am sure it does not exist - You may also want to use the verbage of 'Recreational Vehicle' as noted in Bob's post under exemptions and refrain from using terms such as bus , bus/conversion , etc.- it appears that some of the people who posted above have erroneously been required to obtain a Class B CDL when the exemption (if correct in Bob's post) clearly states there is no such requirement - If they say that they cannot confirm its use by merely looking at your coach - offer to provide a notorized affidavit by you stating the use as a recreational vehicle - It will provide them with 'competent and substantial evidence' of the intended use - If you still have problems go over the supervisor's head et.al. until you reach some one who can read past the 8th grade level - Good Luck Niles | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.137)
Rating: N/A |
Just to clarify one confusion...in TX, there are TWO CDL's. One is the normal COMMERCIAL Drivers License, the other which is mentioned above is the CLASSIFIED Drivers License, which is what we (I) am talking about when speaking of "NON-CDL". Here is a small snippet from FMCA's State-by-State listing of RV Regulations...Hope you can read it.  | ||
| niles (4.4.112.82) Rating: N/A |
Chuck, I appreciate what your saying , and I have predicated my commnents by stating I have not read the code and I am relying on previous posts quotations of the Code - but one of my titles , amongst others , is Code Compliance Manager , and one of our companies provides over-dimensional (up to 16' wide , 16' high , and 105' overall length) hauling now limited to the state of Fla , I have had to familiarize myself with the state and federal regulations due to many run-ins with the FDOT , this involves many calls to the capitol and appearances in front of administrative and judicial bodies - I can assure you that even the Heads of the Departments do not have a firm grasp of the regulations - most of the time I am succesful in finding an administrator who can read and comprehend , other times I have had to take matters to an appellate body , sometimes I have complied with their incorrect interpretations due to ambiguities in the regs (as appears may be the case here) or the cost of litigating the matter in Circuit Court , and occassionaly when needed I have litigated the matters (BTW - I have never lost)- As far as the FMCA information - it is a good 'guide' in traveling through North America - but they are not a regulatory body and their attorneys would caution you in taking their word as gospel - what happens in most cases when people come to loggerheads with the government they acquiesce to to the powers that be instead of pushing the matter to resolution - usually an administrator will ameliorate the situation by requiring a less onerous condition be met (such as requiring a Class B License) and that erroneous requirement perpetuates itself - whether or not a Class B license is a commercial license or not , I do not know - But I am sure it is delineated in the Code and you can read it as well as any attorney - If you all in Texas (home to the nicest rest stops in the US) have a state association it would be to your and their benefit to address and clarify this with the states attorney general , and have them provide a written opinion that can be disseminated to its membership , the motor vehicle people and the general public - But you might have to MESS WITH TEXAS - niles | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.16)
Rating: N/A |
Here is some of the origin of the definitions discussed above, including the "originally designed" wording: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rulesregs/fmcsr/regs/interp383.5.htm | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.5)
Rating: N/A |
The problem, as I see it, is that David's conversion is marked as a "BU" on the type, instead of MH for motorhome. When I changed my bus title to a motorhome they changed vehicle type designation to MH. Maybe that is what David needs to concentrate on. Also, I used a private registration service so I would not have to hassle with the DMV. It was well worth the $60 service fee. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Frank Allen (64.12.116.135) Rating: N/A |
why not try a different office instead of going through all the nonsesne Frank Allen TX | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.137)
Rating: N/A |
Niles: Texas (home to the nicest rest stops in the US) Huh? You gotta be kidding!  Well, thanks for your otherwise useful perspectives! ;) | ||
| niles (24.73.65.124) Rating: N/A |
Chuck , no really , one time we were heading to west texas in a four wheeler and ate at some Mexican restaurant in Lousiana and stayed over nite - My buddy got the touristas the next day and we made every rest stop to an hour past Kerrsville - I got to see em all - But the most impressive was between Houston and San Antonio I think - Red Brick with angular roof and mosaic ceilings - but the most interesting thing was that although the sinks and urinals were inside the builing , the toilets were outside in a courtyard surrounded by a brick wall (probably a romantic spot under the stars) and they were some impressive toilets fabricated out of stainless steel - I estimate the cost of constructing this rest stop structure to be an amount just this side of the cost of building Trump Plaza -LOL Niles | ||
| bowlingshoegiverouter (65.179.200.9) Rating: N/A |
NICE ONES ....ALL OVER TEXAS...have you seen the new ones at Groom ?? ,also nice ones on 77... | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.137)
Rating: N/A |
Alright, I shouldn't have hijacked this thread like that. Haven't been away from the city for awhile, but my memory is that each time I crossed the border from NM heading east from CA to TX, instead of rest stops, Texas had bloody 'Picnic Areas' with no facilities by like a six to one ratio. Who's gonna have a dang picnic at the side of the interstate??? I remembered the facilities being much more inviting in CA, AZ & NM. But the one btwn Hou and SA sounds almost like it would be worth a trip! ;) | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.226) Rating: N/A |
Yippie, I had a much better day today than yesterday. Suffice it to say that after tomorrow the Eagle will no longer be a bus in the eyes of the Texas DMV. It will forever more be a motorhome. I will post all the pertinent information for future bus nuts tomorrow, but after a couple of phone calls it was determined that the title needed to be changed from Bus to motorhome. I did this at my local county tax assessor office. I have to fill out some forms, submit two pictures, inside and outside, give a cerified empty weight and $27.50 and I now have a motorhome. No more bus, no more CDL, only a Class B non commercial license required. I will get all the proper form numbers tomorrow and post a detailed description on how to do this. David Anderson | ||
| bowlingshoegiverouter (65.177.144.237) Rating: N/A |
I'm not the kind of guy that sez I told you so...but,I told you so... it's good when things go right,huh ? | ||
| J.L.Vickers (66.170.221.154) Rating: N/A |
If your Eagle is now going to be a motorhome thanks to the State of Texas. Then why do you need a Class B non commercial license? Because of the below weight limit? Gross vehicle rating greater than 26k lbs? Just wondering? Thanks! | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.190) Rating: N/A |
J.L. Vickers: In Texas, if your motorhome (stick & staple or bus conversion) is greater than 26000lbs then you must have at least a Class B non commercial license. Motorhomes are exempt from CDL's, however if they are greater than 26K lbs you are still exempt from a CDL, but cannot drive them legally with a Class C license. It must be at least a class B. Other states may be different, and you will get conflicting answers at each Texas DMV, but section 521 doesn't exempt the weight requirement for a motorhome. David Anderson | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.165.219)
Rating: N/A |
Careful, bsgo'er. You might have to change your name again. hehe. | ||
| J.L.Vickers (66.170.221.154) Rating: N/A |
Other states may be different, and you will get conflicting answers at each Texas DMV. Yes! I am very aware of the above fact. My Great State Of Texas title for my GMC coach states 22600 lbs as the weight and it is titled as a motorhome. So I can go down the road with a class "C" drivers license. The way I see it after next month the Texas DPS in south Texas will be so busy checking up on the Mexican Truck and Bus drivers they just might not have time for us poor old bus conversion folks! J.L.Vickers | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.177) Rating: N/A |
Ok folks, here is the proper way to do this in Texas. Go to the County tax collector/assessor of the county of YOUR residence. You will need the following when you walk in: Your bus title proof of insurance one picture of the outside of the coach one picture of the inside of the coach a certified empty weight certificate Tell the clerk you want to change the title of a former bus to a reconstructed motorhome and ask for Forms: 130-U APPLICATION FOR TEXAS CERTIFICATE OF TITLE VTR-61 REBUILT AFFIDAVIT On one of those forms is an area that asks for the description of work done. I wrote on mine, "salvage bus with all seats removed, redesigned to a private use recreational vehicle." The forms will have to be notarized which the clerk can probably do there. You will surrender all the above documents (except insurance card) and it cost me $30.50 and I was on my way. Your new title will come from Austin with a MH designation and the clerk told me that the remarks section will say "reconstructed". A couple of notes: I don't know what his title was, but he apparently is the top dog in the motor vehicle division in south Texas. He just happened to be in the office while I was doing this, and the clerk asked him for help in this title change. One thing he noted on the picture was that the windows had to be blocked out. By this he meant either with siding or permanent cover. It is his determination upon review if your RV windows signify the coach is no longer a passenger bus. My point is, if you still have all your bus windows in, you will have to permanently cover some of them and prove to the inspector that it cannot and will not be used as a passenger bus again. The empty weight determines the cost of the annual license. It is in your best $$$ to have the coach as light as possible when you get your certified weight. I don't know how dated the weight certificate can be, but I had one at 30k lbs dated 8-8-2002. The weight I got on the scale yesterday was 34800lbs. I didn't try to use the old weight. I figured I might be pushing my luck a bit too far. I would think you really need to be honest about this issue. The clerk did attach the weight certificate, so it will go to Austin. I hope this puts this issue to bed for all the Texans in the group. It will make good archive material for the next guy that needs to get it done. Thanks all you guys for your help. David Anderson "  " | ||
| niles (24.73.65.124) Rating: N/A |
David , I believe thats a wrap ! niles | ||
| Bulldogie (69.4.195.153)
Rating: N/A |
NOPE just move to Arkie land hehehe no rules no foul just go get the bus designation and no weight limits hehehe just a regular car licence hehehe | ||
| DonGeneda@ (66.82.9.68)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks David, for sharing that with the rest. Your information and its presentation was the first I have seen with definitive useful help to an often discussed and argued about problem. Lets hope some from other states who haven't shared, will do the same. | ||
| John Rigby (65.112.227.94)
Rating: N/A |
David. Beautiful Eagle. John | ||
| neerdowell (68.240.97.81) Rating: N/A |
So, the original woman was full of prunes, as suspected. And the 'top dog' is hopefully full of prunes about the windows. That's ludicrous and afaik has never ever been mentioned anywhere before. | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.191) Rating: N/A |
Neerdowell, Yes, the original woman was full of prunes, but she was correct. My registration still said bus in the vehicle type, and I had to get that changed. As far as the windows are concerned, remember, reconstructing the bus is a subjective thing for the motor vehicle guys in Austin. I believe it is subject to review and could be rejected. Therefore, they want to make sure that the coach will "look" more like a motor home than a passenger bus. If all the windows are still the same, and the coach looks too much like a bus from the outside, it's my understanding they want to be shown (by blocking out the windows) that it cannot possibly be used as a bus again. I seriously doubt if any application change in title has been denied if the appropriate supporting pictures are provided. That's just my opinion. David | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
I just read all this after being off board for a while and there is one thing I ONE that has a question - READ THE ACTUAL LAW for your state. Most of the time, it is easy to understand. Then, when you ask others for input and assistance, you know what to do with the information. Texas was on the net last time I checked. Lots of good info on this post. I would like to point out that a vehicle is registered according to use, not origin. Definitions vary from state to state a bit, but the definition of a motorhome is nearly always defined in the motor vehicle code. It might have BEEN a bus, but if it is registered as a motorhome, it is a motorhome. Requirements are simple and there is a process in every state to get it straightened out. BTW - challenging the registration is probably WAY over the head of an average bureaucrat. KNOW THE LAW that applies to you and be NICE to the person, and you will usually prevail. If not, take it over their head. Good luck Doug St Louis MC9 |