| Author |
Message |
John that newguy (199.232.240.178)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 12:16 am: | |
Is there any inexpensive fix for bad MC9 walking beam bushings? |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 6:31 am: | |
i'm not sure as to what you're referring to as "walking beams bushings"....mci uses 2 air beams suppurted by 4 air bags and multiple torque arms for its suspension... the torque arms have replaceable bushings in each end....support the bus high enough for acess... use blocks or heavy-duty stands... your life depends on it....then you can remove the torque arms and rebush them... sometimes the mounting bolts will have to be torched out, as they rust and corrode....not cheap, labor intensive....the tag axle has replaceable bushings where the axle pivots... again labor intensive.... you've got a big-boy-toy now... get used to paying big-boy prices...unless you can do the work yourself, it can be expensive if you have to hire it done....parts are available thru mci, universal coach,and several good people like luke at us coach.... |
John that newguy (199.232.240.189)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 7:57 am: | |
I especially like the "get used to paying big-boy prices" part, Jim.
Off-hand quotes ranged between $2-4k. No local heavy equipment
garage will do the work; all claim they don't do this type of work on
buses. They send the bus and owner to a specialized shop.
All local shops also noted that it takes a press larger than they have,
to press the bushings in. That would certainly leave a DIY job out
of the equation. Or at least it would for me..... Hell, if a Mack shop
that specializes in heavy equipment doesn't have the press needed,
I doubt if I'm going to pick one up at the local Harbor Freight..
I guess what you're telling me Jim, is that I'm going to be suffering alot
financially if I own a bus, and I'll have to learn to live at the poor farm.
Not quite the answer I was hoping for, but if I want to play with the
big kids, I'll have to learn to control my tears. (ugh) |
TWO DOGS (63.185.65.110)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 10:25 am: | |
wooo don't ever say mack...no dealershops,find independant garages..don't know where you are ,so,can't help much...clicked on you name,nothing,either tell where you are on a post like this or fill in the info with busnut,so we can click & tell |
john wood (209.137.231.116)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 12:18 pm: | |
I think that if we really examine our relationship with our machines, we will realize theat they own US. |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 12:41 pm: | |
you really need to get a mci service manual.... in looking at the procedure, its really simple, just time consuming... and it does not require a press....after the radius rods (torque arms) are removed, the old bushing can be cut out..(its rubber).. then with a home-made tool..(service maual shows how) you can replace the rubber bushing...then re-install the radius rod.... mci does not use the hendrickson style of "walking beams".. those bushings had to be pressed in with a big press....you can contact me for more info at jimcat2@webtv.net if you like...jim |
John that newguy (199.232.244.80)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 3:32 pm: | |
Hey TD: I'm near Melbourne, Fl. I located a garage that says they might
do it, but will have to look it over. About 1,300 labor and parts $????.??
John: Yeah. My car, wife and near everything else owns a part also. She
said that if I spend too much time and $$ with this project, she's leaving.
(excuse me, I got to go hold the door)
Jim: There's an MCI garage near Kissimee. I'm going to call 'em and
see if they have a manual for me. I guess some old mechanics call it a
"walking beam" and some an "air beam"? Three garages I talked to all
did say it took a hell of a press to do the bushings though, so I'm
reading your comments with great interest!
I -do not- plan to do this job myself (60 and a bad back), but I don't
want to pour cash into a dead-end. The engine's got a rear seal leak
and the front pulleys's got a bounce; the power steering pump's leaking
and there's likely more things to pop up?
The seal leak will run about $800 and the bounce? If it's a worn pulley,
it's cheap. If its tapered the shaft, it'll be expensive. If it's bearings....well...
It's easy to find truck mechanics willing to work "on the side", but they
don't like to do buses. since it doesn't have the room a truck has, to do
the work.
I guess the question should have been: How serious of a problem are
"worn bushings" in the "walking beam" (or air beam)?
The outer rear tires are slightly cupped on the inner sides. But I have no
way of knowing how long they've been used on this vehicle.
By the way guys.... This bus was used for church charters for about 8-10
years (by a church charter operator) after being retired from daily run
use by Trailways affiliate.
I guess I should have heeded my own warning about "church buses", huh? |
John that newguy (199.232.244.80)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 4:10 pm: | |
Let's see if this works:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/stateface/ne/99ne018.html |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (209.247.222.107)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 8:31 pm: | |
Hi John that newguy & Folks:
John, thank you for sharing that site.
In our shop, where we have 4 pits, I have always stressed to my guys, that I want them to walk out at the end of the day the way they walked in.
When doing suspension work, we support the axle and body and we are working on 8" thick concrete reinforced floors, with heavy steel jacking plates spanning the pits.
I printed out the report from the site you referenced, just to remind my guys of what can happen, if they don't do it, the way they have been taught.
We can all just not be safe enough when we work under these buses in a shop and I only shudder when I read many posts of folks doing this work in their back yard. Now, there are folks with a great deal of mechanical apptitude and respect for the size & weight of the vehicle they are working on, who can and will do it properly, but if one is not sure, DON'T!!!
With regard to your radius rod bushings, the MC-9's were built with rubber bushings. N.J. Transit, for example machined out the original rods and pressed in Steel Clad Bushings on many of their coaches. So the parts book menas less and less, as the years pass, the coach passes thru many hands. You may have rubber bushings or you may have steel clad bushings. Only someone who knows buses or heavy duty suspension systems will be able to look and know for sure!!
I Hope this HELPS!! Thanks again for the site reference!!
Happy & SAFE!!! Bussin' to all this weekend.
LUKE at US COACH |
Phil Dumpster (24.16.243.37)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 2:33 am: | |
Somewhere I have a picture of a jack stand that broke while under load, causing the car that was on in to drop to the ground. Fortunately, I was doing brake work on said car at the time and was not under the vehicle, but rather on my knees beside it when one of the welds on one jack stand failed.
The point is, don't even trust jack stands when getting under a load. Solid wood blocks are best. If you have to stack many of them to get enough altitude, make sure the blocks are wide enough to ensure stability. Steel plates are handy for spreading loads. Don't use concrete blocks, they can crack and drop the load.
More important, make sure the surface you're working on can stand the load. Whatever system you use for supporting the load, make sure it won't come down on you if there's an earthquake, or something bumps it, or even a strong wind. |
FAST FRED (4.245.191.31)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 5:38 am: | |
There is an ABC coach place in FL,
THEY have seen & done bushings on an MCI .
Worth the drive ,Pros , not Amateur Hour , learning on YOUR dime.
FAST FRED |
John that newguy (199.232.240.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 8:16 am: | |
Luke, FF, etc:
I'm in the process of calling around for prices and I'm in
no hurry to get the job done. I'd like to get the engine
fully inspected before I dump anything into the rest of it.
There's few if any, used commercial vehicles for sale that
do not need a bunch of work. I noticed that phenomenon here
among those that have bought buses and had to swap engines,
transmissions, etc. I expected to spend some serious $$$ for
unforeseen repairs. But, the unit's fairly clean and I already
have a buyer for the newly recovered seats, to help recover
some cash.
It's unfortunate, but what "Jimmci9" said: "you've got a
big-boy-toy now... ...get used to paying big-boy prices"
is absolutely true. There can be 11 tons worth of work that's
simply beyond the average home mechanic's expertise. And
the tools needed to do the job safely, can cost more than the
bus garage charges to do the job. Like a boat, the sails
usually set over the bank account.
Anyone considering a bus conversion versus a normal RV,
should consider the amount of work they will -not- be able to
do themselves if they owned a bus instead of an RV.
The benefit? The bus once repaired properly, will stay fixed
long after the expensive RV's been scrapped.
I guess that's the bottom line.
Thanks for the input guys! |
FAST FRED (4.245.191.191)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 1:03 pm: | |
On a brighter note :
While repairs can need expertise and tools and skills only a pro will have,,
mere Maintance can be done by anyone that is used to doing a car.
Yes, things like "repack the wheel bearings" used to take only a bit of work .
Now getting the tire off a coach ,
just so you can address the brake drum is more work!
7+ Gal of oil instead of 5 quarts.
But its grunt work , no huge extra inventorie of skills is needed, for almost all the maint requirements.
So purchasing a more costly WELL MAINTAINED coach , is usually cheapest in the long run.
Esp for folks that must farm out All the work.
IMO,
FAST FRED |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.79.122.176)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 2:06 pm: | |
Phil's point is not to be taken lightly. I've seen heavy things (Like a bus) drive good-quality stands 2" into the asphalt.
Heavy stuff is dangerous, be careful.
Gary |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.54)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 7:27 pm: | |
Luke is the expert-- I'm the guy who was qualified to do the work and did it in his driveway. That is, I replaced the radius arm bushings in my RTS. I used ramps and did only one rod at a time-- took one off, took the rod to a front end shop that had a press big enough to replace the bushings, and put the arm back on. I only did one at a time because if I didn't, the differential and bus body has to be supported so they don't shift. Even doing one at a time I still had to use a come-a-long to re-align the differential housing so I could put each arm back on. Doing it myself the 8 bushings cost me $100, and the shop charged me around the same to press out the old bushings and press in the new ones. I don't think the whole job should have taken more than 6 hours, so a shop can't ask for more than a $1,000 parts and labor for what I did.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
John that newguy (199.232.240.203)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 11:34 pm: | |
Yeah Geo.. Doing one at a time is probably the best way to tackle it,
but I've already decided to farm it out.
While they fix the bushings, they can replace what appears to be a
deflated tag axle air bag. The switch doesn't seem to do much, as
one tag's bag stays inflated and one deflated regardless of the switch's
position. There's an air leak near the rear axle that's got to be addressed
also.
Actually, before I have any of that repaired, I'd like to find out about
that crankshaft pulley that's got that bounce and have the rear seal
fixed...or find out if it's really bad bearings... (oh-ooh?)
Ahh, then have the leaky power steering repaired and find out why
I have so much play in the wheel.... and maybe make sure all the
steering components are sound..
Uhhh... and I need 4 tires.
Oh yeah, and I'm having the sign painted to read: "The Money Pit"
(not really; not yet) |
Jimmci9 (209.240.205.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 12:34 pm: | |
i replaced the bushings in 1 of my torque arms on the rear... it did not require a press.... i made the tool that the service manual shows how....bought new mounting bolts from caterpillar (where i work)...very simple...i found the bushings in the spare tire comaprtment... bought by the prevoius owner/operator, i guess...along with chicken bones and pesos.... |
John that newguy (199.232.240.123)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 1:42 pm: | |
I guess some require a press and some don't, as Luke pointed out.
In either case, I'll end up driving over to whatever shop
offers the best pricing for the work needed. There was a day
when I'd tackle a job like this myself, but that day ain't now
or tomorrow, anymore. Hell, just taking the wheels off may be
a major production for me...
Bad backs are a pain in the errr... lower back |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.18)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 6:34 pm: | |
I hate to say this, but the problems you list on your bus will be very expensive to repair. It will probably end up costing you more than you paid for the bus. You may just want to sell it and buy another bus, except this time have it checked out by a bus garage/mechanic first.
I have a suggestion to make-- why don't you find a charter bus company in your area that works on MC-9's on the side and have them inspect the bus and give you an estimate on fixing everything that they find wrong? Quit going to truck repair shops, they don't necessarilly know how to work on buses and will usually overcharge you.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
John that newguy (199.232.244.252)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 8:30 pm: | |
The garage that inspected this bus did so for another
prospective buyer. I contacted them after I paid for the
bus. The owner was headed north for the season and wouldn't
be back until winter; the devil made me do it, what can I
say?
Anyway.... the garage that did this inspection doesn't work
on buses. The owner said that he's not equipped for "low
profile" units, like a bus. So, I figure that he'll be a bit
more honest with what's needed, since he's not going to be
the one making money fixing what's wrong.
The garage claimed they stopped short of a full inspection
due to the nature of the initial problems they found and
knowing what the prospective buyer was going to pay for the
bus. The garage felt that for the price asked, the church
would have to put too much into it for the safe carry of
it's passengers.
Now...The original asking price for this '79 MC9 was
$14,500. I paid $8k. The seller is now offering me something
back to compensate for the amount of work needed to fix it,
(maybe $2k) since he claimed he didn't know it was as bad as
they say it is (it was being used for charters until the day
I bought it). The seller also found a buyer for the seats
($500 or more) and the seat buyer will remove and take away
the seats at my location.
I'm not too sure this is as bad a deal as I first thought. I
looked over a $12.5K Eagle that was too rusted to be
bothered with; a 4104 semi-conversion for $14k that needed
finishing and undoing of errors; a 4107 semi-converted and
mostly apart for $14k; a 4905 "conversion" that would need a
bomb to make look good...only $16k.. And an assortment of
buses from various dealer web sites, that after questioning
were found to need almost as much to repair as the price
asked.
"Run hard; put away wet" has become the favored terminology
to describe every unit I've looked at so far; in person or
via media.
I met a guy at our campground that had just bought an MC9.
It looked good, but needed brakes and an assorted amount of
engine work to fix leaks, etc. The automatic transmission
was slipping and the air was removed. He was planning to
convert it and was glad to have bought it for $18k.
So Geo.. I don't know if it pays to spend a lot for a used
bus; they all need something that's going to hurt the
wallet. I'm hoping the engine's OK and the pulley's just
*&%'d up and it's just a simple leaky rear seal. But even
the worse case scenario of a bad crank, the engine will
still take me another 20-50k miles. That's damn far when
you're just vacationing locally with it.
$3 to $8k for a bad crank; maybe $2k for rear suspension
bushings..another $1.5k for tires and maybe $1.5k for front
end work for a high total of 13k? Add the price paid for the
bus at maybe $6k and I figure for the grand total of $18k
I'll be into a bus in great shape. Sure, we'll probably be
sleeping on the floor and using the MCI bathhouse, but it'll
be good 'nuff for jazz.
I love what you managed to accomplish with your conversion,
Geo...but I don't plan to even come close to that with mine.
Quick/simple and functional; Low budget, but signs of caring
workmanship. As long as it runs and takes us there and back
safely, is all that matters to me. And what the hell, the wife was
threatening to leave anyway.. (just kiddin'; 41 years and counting) |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.18)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 9:25 pm: | |
John-- after reading your post I remembered something that I have learned but forgotten: it is still hard to find a good bus to convert, and it is a matter of luck finding something that doesn't need a lot of expensive work. The reason I have forgotten is that after buying a bus most of just log on to the computer and look at buses for sale ads, and think we see so many bargains out there when the a lot of the time you go and look at them and find out they need a lot more work than the ad portrayed. Plus most of cannot go around the country (with our favorite mechanic) and look at each bus thousand of miles away because it sounds like a winner.
I hope this turns out to be a good bus for you, and I hope you find a good bus charter company that can do the repair work for you reasonably.
--Geoff
'82 RTS CA |
John that newguy (199.232.244.252)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 9:57 pm: | |
Thanks Geo, I'm sure things will work out, one way or the other. It has
for almost all those all on this board. I guess we share the same thought,
that we can do as much or as little as we dare afford and make do with
what we can deal with. It takes time and cash and a love for the bus.
I still have an option to return the bus, but I'm tired of looking for the
"good deal". These buses have been built to give a decent return to the
original investor; That done, the balance is at -our- own peril.
I bought a Winnebago for 17k, used it for 5 or 6 years (90k miles use),
dumped about 5 or 6k into it... and just sold it for $4,500....for parts.
The Georgie-boy I paid 7k for about two years ago and dumped
about 4k into (about 40k miles use) just sold for 4k....for parts.
Can I do worse with a bus? |
|