| Author | Message | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.165)
Rating: N/A |
Upon inquiry to a local propane dealer, it was suggested that I use 1/2 or 3/8 copper line inside the coach ( run in a chase) rather than black pipe... Our coach has frame under the floor and there is just too much "stuff" under there to run a line. A single line will be about 20 feet to the stove/oven. Genset (2 feet from 40 gallon tank) will also be run by propane. What do you think? Thanx....  RCB '64 Crown Supercoach (HWC) | ||
| S.M. Heath (66.82.50.1) Rating: N/A |
R.C.B, I use a 3/8" Copper (comes as a coil from local Hardware Store) to my O'Keef & Merrit 1954 Range about 60K BTU and the 3/8" copper is adiquit But, I Have not Yet located a place that has Gas-Rated In-Line Valves to fit copper flanged pipe. If Anyone Knows where to get Gas Rated In-Line Valves that fit onto copper pipe with a minimum of fittings please inform Me/Us Where, Whome, Whatever applicable info. available. Thanks in Advance. S.M. Heath. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
I have seen threaded pipe, in vibration situations crack at the threads. I'd take your propane guy's advice. On a related note, I'm trying to figure out how to not have LP at all. Gary | ||
| Ron Walker (Prevost82) (209.52.245.237)
Rating: N/A |
I ran copper pipe and ran it inside a garden hose to protect it. It was a bit of a fight getting it inside the hose, but it will never get a wear spot in it from rubbing on anything under the floor. I secure the pipe and hose with 3/4" rubber clamps. Ron | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.65.57) Rating: N/A |
I used propane rubber hose,available from the propane dealer.. | ||
| sCool busnut (65.40.226.236) Rating: N/A |
RCB I may be wrong on this, but I beleive that LP generators run on LIQUID - not LP vapors - like your range and most other LP applications use. If that is the case, you may neeed to run two separate lines from the tank. Also, the tank must have a LIQUID port as well as a vapor port. You may need to run two regulators. Also, check the BTU input of the generator. If you go with too small of a line, it won't run right. Maybe you should go ahead and plan on 1/2 inch to be safe. My 2 cents mark 75 gillig 636D | ||
| john wood (209.137.231.107) Rating: N/A |
Best is CSST, which is a corregated stainless steel with a pvc wrapper made and approved for LP and Nat. Check with yer hardware or big box for availability. I get mine at a plumbing supply house. Lotsa gensets use vapor, the BIG gensets and prime movers in vehicles use liquid. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad) (204.193.117.66)
Rating: N/A |
I purchase LP approved ball valves at our local Home Depot. The valves have female pipe threads, so an adapter fitting would have to be installed to convert to flare fitting. It is my understanding that compression fittings are not LP approved. Hope this helps, Jack | ||
| sCool busnut (65.40.226.236) Rating: N/A |
I use the CSST (corrogated stainless steel tubing) all the time as a certified LP pipe fitter. However I don't think I will be using it in my conversion, as it has no approvals for such use. Also, the vendors of the csst are not supposed to sell it to anybody that is not trained to use csst! I will probably use copper, although I would never use copper in a residential application. I feel that CSST is a far superior product, but copper is so widely used in the RV industry from what I've seen. By the way, SM, the ball valves you are looking for are readily available. Look for the WOG (water oil gas) cast into the body of the valve. They are available with flare fittings at each end! mark 636D | ||
| S.M. Heath (66.82.50.1) Rating: N/A |
sCool busnut, To be even more discriptive of what I am looking for wold be like the brass gas valves that also have "Mounting Tabs" as part of the Casting of Valve Body so the valve mounts directly onto a flat surface to keep the valve from vibrateing excessively &(thus,) createing potential for laeks/damage to pipes or conections. Like the ones we had in our old Mobil Scout TT in erly 70's. Duz anyone else remember those type Valves? Do they still exist? Can they be found used, new, surpluss? Are they safe? (Ours Never had any problems.) Anyone here know?. S.M H. | ||
| Bob Damm (216.134.164.119)
Rating: N/A |
While having some none bus propane work done I was told by the installer that they are not using copper as much because over time the inside corrodes and causes little flakes to plug up the regulators etc. They now use a yellow plastic material hose instead. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
In the old days, the theory was that fuel gas vapors react with copper pipe and cause it to become brittle. That's why it's never used in houses for gas. It's actually the hydrogen sulfide content in natural gas that was the problem... Over 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 standard cubic feet of gas would cause copper pipes to "flake" inside and problems occured from this. Largely this contamination has been eliminated in recent years and copper is now considered safe for fuel gas in most of the country. Propane mostly never had the problem at all because it's manufacturing process was "cleaner" from the outset. If you have any curiousity about it, read here from the "horses' mouth", the Copper Development Association: http://www.copper.org/applications/fuelgas/fuelgas_faq_all.html#magad That said, copper pipe can work harden more easily than black iron pipe, and my personal view is that it is more apt to stress fracture than black iron, at least on a vibrating bus. So I used 3/4 black iron everywhere in my bus. 1/2" isn't big enough to carry my 7.5K Onan propane genset, the interior heater, and stove all at one time. If you use pipe dope that stays soft, you can kind-of consider a 90 degree elbow to be somewhat of a flex point as well as an elbow (ie a thread will turn a lot easier than a pipe will bend, so 90's can be considered as a "fuse" to stop stresses from occuring if they are put at appropriate places in the system) , at least for "stresses" from being bolted into a bus frame. Tie everything down and it won't break. Heck, 90% of the brake airlines on my bus are threaded steel pipe... not much difference between that and "black" except the galvanizing. I can't imagine the arguement that threads are weak and will break if used in a bus is valid, as long as the system is done properly, not overtightened, and properly secured. I used corrogated stainless steel tubing "hoses" for each appliance, between each shutoff valve on the black iron pipe and the appliance. If you check around and look at the labels, quite a few say they are OK for motorhome use. Just as many say "no". Interestingly, even at home depot you can find both flavors. In any case, properly tying them down so they won't vibrate is essential to safety. Last, for 2D... (00ps... two dogs, sorry...) I'd never use the rubber hose from a propane shop, because it can easily burn and it can also easily be worn thru. It's only made of rubber and thread. You can get stainless steel braided propane hose (the braid is internal) from a good industrial hose dealer, and that stuff is safe, although it is also big bucks and the fittings are pretty heavy duty. But the "junk" from a propane dealer is meant for home BBQ's and is not anywhere near safe for an RV, in my opinion. RCB, most RV propane gensets run on vapor. Very few (never seen one) on liquid. Some on high pressure vapor, some on low. It's all in what regulator the manufacturer stuck on the genset. If they were to run on liquid propane, there's a lot more involved in the system, ie a water cooled vaporizer for starters. Forklifts do use liquid propane for a lot of reasons, one of which is that they use more propane in a shorter time period and don't want to freeze the tank (not really an issue with an RV), and another is that they have water cooled engines, so radiator water is avaliable to vaporize the LPG. Air cooled engines obviously have no water, so without really fancy gear, liquid LPG is out for them... | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.81.136) Rating: N/A |
tires are made out of rubber & thread also...I'm happy with my choice,DO NOT like black pipe ... | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Each to his own opinion! That's what's so fun about this all!! (although an insurance man might not agree with you in case of a fire... but then who says he'll agree with me either!!) That said, a good part of doing this conversion stuff is the proper use of materials that are "rated" for the intended use. BBQ hose is simply not rated for permanent installation RV use. The industry is pretty specific about it, and for good reason. Propane is a nasty gas if accidently allowed to be in places it shouldn't be. I have attended an intensive 2 week school specifically about propane and it's use in vehicles. That doesn't make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But it did open my eyes to the fact that working with propane is one area in bus-land where "opinions" and "likes" fall short and "correct" according to industry standaards is the better way to go. You may like your little rubber hosies, but according to history and the pros, they're simply dangerous in this application. I won't disagree that rubber and thread makes good tires though, although I prefer steel thread in my tires as well as my rubber propane lines... But I'll back off now and let you do it "your way". Chances are you'll be ok. I'll hope it stays that way G | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.81.136) Rating: N/A |
and I'll hope that your black pipe doesn't break where it screws in,lots of vibration you know,but,most vibration is only on crowns & school buses ... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
I had a piece of pipe break in the last run with my bird, carrying coolant. if My wife wasn't behind me in the Durango, I would have had a big problem. The only pipe in my brake system is very short pieces <8" connecting two components together. The hose, LP and NG rated stuff is fairly similar to welding hose, which lasts through many years of hard abuse. With securing it from chafing, and a little care in termination, I can't imagine a problem. BTW: We have all seen rubber wear a hole in Steel haven't we? I would likely use copper, but I'm going to try and find one of those snazzy diesel-fired ranges and leave the LP completely out of the picture. gary | ||
| sCool busnut (65.40.226.236) Rating: N/A |
Don't get confused between stainless steel 'flex connectors' as compared to the much different CSST (CORROGATED STAINLESS STEEL TUBING). CSST is aproved for concealed fittings (tees ,reducers, etc) - appliance "flex connectors" may never be concealed. The flex connector goes downstream of the CSST, copper, or black pipe - just after your ball valve, always accessible for service/replacement. Never use it ANYWHERE else!! Same goes for the rubber hose connectors! They are intended as CONNECTORS between your gas piping (CSST, copper, black pipe) and your appliance! mark 636D | ||
| RC Bishop (128.123.221.157)
Rating: N/A |
Very interesting discussion and points of view....Thanx to all. BTW....the propane dealer said specifically not to use rubber hose....not because of the hose, but the fact that the ends tend, over time, to enlarge and leak. It is intended to be used outside only. I have a bunch of it and had thought it might be used, but alas...,not so. RCB | ||
| Lin (66.159.227.232)
Rating: N/A |
Ours has flex copper tubing. I agree with above post that it used to be considered that copper was not compatible with natural gas. Propane was not an issue. My thought was that flex copper is less brittle just because it is flexible. Therefore it should be more forgiving of vibration. It certainly is easier to work with. | ||
| FAST FRED (4.245.230.129) Rating: N/A |
Today the rubber has improved so much that its the ONLY thing the IUSCG will allow on a boat. Boats have no outside drains for loose propane so are built to a higher std than a camper. "I would likely use copper, but I'm going to try and find one of those snazzy diesel-fired ranges and leave the LP completely out of the picture." Having lived with an oil range for 15 years , I would recomend as SECOND summer stove. To get to bacon cooking temp can take 15 min from a cold start , and will be dumping almost 20.000btu into the coach , much heat remains after the 120lb stove is turned off. This is perfect for months of winter , always having the stove on and at temp , but may become tiresom in long hot summers , for a cup of coffee. The usual is either a 2 burner propane on top of the range. Or for cheap folks that are really parinoid , a pressure kerosene stove . The kerosene will last a very long time as the btu content is far higher than the propane. But the kero gets a 30 second pre heat with alcohol ,to operate , the propane doesnt. For a winter in AK with supplies flown in after the spring thaw , the kero for summer & diesel range or furnace would be #1 choice. For a campground , the propane stove should work fine. The best solution I have seen was a gent that simply pulled the diesel range in spring & plopped in a nice SS propane unit. Best of both worlds. FAST FRED | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.79.122.176)
Rating: N/A |
If your range and your bottle are at opposite ends fo the coach, then I wouldn't use rubber, but if my bottle was in a compartment right under my range, I would use rubber, no problem for me. FF -- I'm not talking about one of the old workboat crewstoves, I'm talking about a very modern-looking glass-cooktop deal that runs on Diesel. I saw an ad for one about a year ago, I wonder if I saved it? Hmm...... Definitely not one of those that in order to cook you have to heat the whole deckhouse. I think the stove is around five bills. Maybe these things are vaporware and I won't end up using one, but My goal is to have as few systems to maintain as possible. Gary | ||
| FAST FRED (4.245.212.96) Rating: N/A |
The small Dickinson is about $1200 , so this new marine product will clean out the worldwide market , if its only $500. The most modern unit I have seen was a dead copy of an 30's oil Shipmate , had a std. house home oil furnace bolted into the door. Fast heat ,but needs electric, UGH. FAST FRED | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (63.207.207.177)
Rating: N/A |
The Dickenson's not the one. Damn, now I have to go track it down. Even if it is $1200, the difference in cost will be offset by the savings of setting up an LP system. Gary | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.97.32) Rating: N/A |
YEAH....sure | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (63.207.207.177)
Rating: N/A |
Seriously. $100 here, $100 there, it addds up. the other side is that I want as few systems as possible to have to maintain, I'm going to install a proheat or similar, 30Gal heat-exchanger W/H, Baseboard heaters, etc... all run on diesel. Also, my last several years living on a boat has given me an irrational discomfort with LP. (That's probably the biggest reason) Gary | ||
| FAST FRED (4.245.230.164) Rating: N/A |
"the other side is that I want as few systems as possible to have to maintain" Maint is determined more by he suitability and complexity of the product chosen and the ability to FOLLOW DA BOOK installing it. Parts count does matter as well as intended service. Accessability counts more. EG The folks with a mile of wire, solenoids and air valves to get level , all hanging in the slush and underbrush give me the horrors. But its fine for them, FAST FRED | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (63.207.207.177)
Rating: N/A |
The more pieces you have, the more failure points you have. Parts do fail, it's a fact of life, can't get around it. The more parts, the more failure potential. I'm not giving advice to everyone to abandon LP, I am just investigating using diesel for everything on my own conversion. LP systems are not just a bottle, a line (Hose, Pipe, tubing, whatever) and appliance(s) it also includes electric shutoffs, LP detectors, and the like. Also, you have another fuel source to consider filling frequently as well. I'd rather tank up at the local truckstop and be done with it. All my other heating issues can be resolved with diesel, quite efficiently, I might add, I just need to find that Mysterious Range I once saw advertised. Gary | ||
| joe shelton (67.241.230.134) Rating: N/A |
I just installed soft copper in my 4106. Never considered black iron till now. I use a rubber hose lead from my propane tanks to the soft copper connection. I can see the rubber lead needs replacing (cracking). Rubber is affected by sunlight and ozone, a by-product of electric motors. That’s why you're never supposed to store tires in the enclosed room with running elec motors (like where your compressor sits). The rubber lead on my tanks is in a bay where four dc motors operate. I'll keep the rubber lead; I inspect it every time I refill the tanks. Joe 4106-2119 | ||
| TWO DOGS (63.185.97.66) Rating: N/A |
sounds like an old wives tale to me...my rubber hose is 10 years old...(and)...the 'ends' don't get bigger ,the fittings are crimped on....to each his own,I guess... | ||
| S.M. Heath (66.82.50.1) Rating: N/A |
I did-not know that there were Genitcly-Modified Rubber Trees! "Rubber has Improoved" (July 13 Fast Fred 5:36 AM.)LOL!. S.M. H | ||
| TWO DOGS (65.179.193.171) Rating: N/A |
heath...rubber "" ? ""....has been made out of pet. products for quite a while,they DO keep changeing & improveing tires,used to be 10,000 miles to a tire,used to smoke 'em at intersections,...now...no smoke...maybe "we" are talking about different 'rubber hose....I was talking about the stuff a place that sells propane handels,not the stuff you have in your front yard...I have another one that is 30 years old & it still looks brand new,and, it is hung on the wall,next to my air compressor.. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (63.207.207.177)
Rating: N/A |
Also, Two Dogs, it is important to consider you have built-up hoses, with no hose clamps. I think that's a requirement for that hose. Gary | ||
| S.M. Heath (66.82.50.1) Rating: N/A |
T.D., Gary, I just looked-up what tires are made of, & there is both "natral" & "synthetic" materials that are called "rubber" useed in Mfr. of Tires. I did not look-up hoses. 30 years is "Good-Old" Tech.. Is new realy any better? I don't think that I have enough years left in me to test a twice-as-"good" hose as that one next to that compressor. S.M. H. |