| Author | Message | ||
| Bulldogie (69.4.195.184)
Rating: |
Hello folks, how many of you have remote control auto start for your gen sets? And the question is what kind of gen set besides Onan do you use? Called Trace and ask them if a Isuzu with key start would work and got the pat answer "we have only tested with an Onan gen set". So looking for help and advice here. I have a 2012 with a RC7 GS remote control/gen starting unit and I would like to stay away from the costly Onan if possible. Thanks again for you help folks | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.47.149)
Rating: N/A |
Which genset should not really matter. Naturally, u would need to parallel around the key start remote for your auto start unit to work. I have a keyed Isuzu 7kw with two push-button non-keyed remotes. I used the keyed remote panel as the primary down in the bay next to the genset since it has the indicators and guages on it. The remotes I built using a spst for power to gen and 2 momentary sp for preheat and start, wired parallel into the primary panel. | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.181) Rating: N/A |
I have a Trace SW2512 with a Genmate autostart cranking my Kubota, all bought from Wrico. I assume your 2012 has the same Ry7 Ry8 setup as mine??? What does the "RC7 GS" have to have to signal the genny? You can manipulate the relays on the Trace to open/close according to battery voltage sensing (if you have that available). Do you have that capability? We need a bit more info for detailed help. If your genny requires "glow/stop" then "crank" you have a certain program sequence. If your genny requires just "crank" then you have another program sequence. I don't know how an Isuzu is setup, so I can't give you good advice, but I do know what the Trace can do if it is similar to the SW2512. Write back and we will discuss some more. David | ||
| Bulldogie (69.4.195.127)
Rating: N/A |
David, the RC7 is the programming unit that lets you set what you want the SW2012 do, my 2012 lets you reset the 30 amp service to 50 am service if that is what you want. My question is and has been just what kind of motor with key start can one hook up to this SW2012 and who has done it before me. This way who ever I buy my genset from I will not have to re-invent the wheel just ask that person how they did it and do mine the same, ok? | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.224) Rating: N/A |
That is different from the SW2512, then. Mine is integrated internally in the inverter. Somehow, you need to get some technical info on how the RC7 signals the generator start sequence. Does it have any instructions in the manual? The only starting sequences I've seen are what was explained in my Trace manual: glow/stop, crank, run. and crank, run. You set the Trace according to the type of genny you have. What type of start sequence does your Isuzu have? David | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.224) Rating: N/A |
I just reread James' post. It appears you have the glow/stop, crank, run type. If that is the case then you you must program your RC7 for that. Do you have the capability to close relays for 1.) preheat for x number of seconds 2.) crank for x number of seconds That is the start sequence. you have to have a shutoff sequence which would open or close a relay depending on what the genny requires. According to Dick Wright at Wrico, this is very tricky in that the Trace will continue to crank the starter until it gets line 2 in "good" which means 120volts to the inverter. There is a potential to fry your starter if the genny doesn't send 120 volts to the inverter immediately after it fires. That is an issue you will deal with attempting this auto start system. Let us know if your RC7 can initiate the glow/stop, crank, run sequence. David | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell) (66.81.212.245)
Rating: N/A |
David: Correct, mine is glow/stop/start and I don't use auto start. There is a small electronic sensor module with mine and I did not get too deep into it but my cursory study of the wiring indicated to me that u could combine glow/start, since the glow period is only 3-5 seconds, which I don't think is long enough to cause damage when cranking the starter. In fact, I have started mine after long shutdown (days) very quickly without glow. Mine is a Northern Pro w/ Isuzu model LA 3cyl. on a 7kw. I doubt that I will ever go to auto start, since most of the people I know that have that capability have disabled it for various reasons. Dick Wright's point is valid and his exposure to the field probably means he has witnessed it. I have a remote in the kitchen and another one on the dash, along with the Master in the cargo bay. Both of the upper remotes are parallel wired thru the Master switch. | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.138.189.232)
Rating: N/A |
My SW2512 has user programmable crank times and time between attempts to keep the starter cool. Unless a relay sticks, which could happen to any of the autostart devices, there is no way its going to fry the starter if you take the few minutes to set it up properly. And, I have used mine and it works as described and very reliably. Jim | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.176) Rating: N/A |
Jim, You are correct about the programable crank times, but that is not what causes the starter to overcrank. As it was explained to me by Dick, the Trace has no way to sense the generator running other than line 2 in "hot". If you have an automatic transfer switch failure or any kind of output failure, the Trace will continue starting attempts with the genny running. Dick said he has seen many do this with ruined starters as a consequence. After he explained that to me, it all made sense. To protect my equipment I use a Genmate auto start that I purchased from Wrico and set my RY7 relay on the Trace to the "run" mode in the programming. When the Trace calls for battery recharge, the RY7 relay closes and the Genmate does the start sequence. The Genmate has a terminal that senses the motor running which is totally independent of any output. This eliminates any future attempt at cranking. The system has worked flawlessly and is very reliable. I use it on occasion as needed. None of this answers Bulldogie's questions, but it is how I engineered my system, mainly because I really trust Dick Wright's opinions on these things. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
David, I'm a bit confused about your explanation of the possibility of the Trace attempting to start an already running generator causing the starter to "overcrank." If one correctly programs the start sequence on a Trace SW series, the "Glow/Stop" signal is always sent before the crank signal. This should stop a running generator before it is cranked again. The SW will retry the start sequence five times before giving up. Five crank attempts performed while only one was needed should not be an undue burden on the starter unless it happens frequently. To have an SW series properly start a generator, the generator output should be connected directly to the AC2 input, however. An ATS will introduce a delay before the Trace "sees" good input on AC2, which will, indeed, cause the unit to crank the generator longer than necessary. I believe this is the reason Dick recommends the GenMate -- the ATS Dick sells provides a generator "warm-up" delay that would essentially make it impossible to use the RY7/RY8 feature on the Trace. -Sean | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Bulldogie, I did a little research on your question. I'm afraid I have bad news: The Xantrex manuals for the RC7/GS show relay connections and settings only for the Onan. Several other "generator models" may be selected, but they are not described in the manual and are only listed as "other." Furthermore, the RC7 does not give you direct control over the function and timing of the two generator starting relays (as does, for example, the SW series people have been writing about above). The Onan generators use a two-button type starting system, with built-in automatic glow plug timing and electronic controls. (A quick momentary "button push" begins the start sequence, and another "button push" shuts it down.) Unless your Isuzu has this same starting system, you will not be able to connect it to the RC7 using the "Onan" setting. (BTW, this starting system is sometimes found on other gensets, and is often called "Onan-type starting.") You have two other options here. One is to connect a quick-and-dirty test light setup to the two starting relays, select each of the "Other" generator types in turn, and try the generator start feature. Time what happens with the lights when you select "start." You can "fool" the unit into thinking a generator has started by connecting a simple 120-volt circuit to the generator input with a manual switch, and turning the switch on after you see the "start" light come on for a few seconds. That will then allow you to try the "stop" feature and, again, time what happens with the lights. It is just possible that one of the pre-programmed generator types will have the glow/start/stop timing you need. What you will look for is one of the two relays to close upon pressing the "start" button, and then open several seconds later, followed by the other relay opening and staying open until you turn on the 120-volt input. When you select "stop" the first relay should once again come on for several seconds (or until you turn off the 120-volt input), but the second relay should remain off. These would then be your "Glow/Stop" and "Crank" functions, respectively. (Most likely, at least one of the generator type selections will have one relay come on and remain on throughout the "run" period, with the other relay coming on for the "crank" period. This is a "two-wire" or "Honda-type" start system.) Your other option is to build a one-touch start circuit using a pair of delay timers and a relay. I have a diagram for such a circuit that I can send you. One of the timers controls the glow period, and the other controls the crank time. You would connect the input of this circuit to the "start" signal from the RC7, and then simply use the "Onan" setting. The "stop" signal goes directly to the generator. Delay timers can be had on eBay for around $20 each. HTH, -Sean | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.185) Rating: N/A |
Sean, That is true the the RY7 would initiate the stop sequence, thus kill a running genny regardless of 120volt output or lack thereof. I didn't think of that. Perhaps Dick's explanation of burned up starters resulted in poor field wiring or programming by the end users and not necessarilly failure of the genny or the Trace. He may sell the Genmate as an idiot proof way to make the system work correctly. With the genmate I just program RY7 to the "run" position which activates the Genmate to "do its thing". Initially, I wired my Trace to start my Kubota with the Glow/stop, crank system without the use of the genmate. It worked ok, but I had to adjust the crank time according to season, longer cranks in the winter, shorter in the summer. The RY8 will crank the programmed amount of time regardless the genny starting in 1 second or 5 seconds. If the user doesn't have it just right it will continue spinning the starter a bit after the genny lights up and a potential of the bendix gear locking the starter and spinning it. I believe this is what Dick saw to be a problem, thus his solution was the Genmate. As I posted earlier the Genmate senses a "run" from the motor and immediately disengages the starter solenoid. This is absent any electric output from the AC generator. Dick tried to get the Trace Engineers to install a sensing device that would pick up this signal from any generator motor, but they refused. Their thoughts were that it didn't concern them if customers toasted starters on their own equipment. It's not made by Trace, so it shouldn't matter. In my opinion if the Trace autostart sequence is done correctly, it should work fine. I just added a bit of insurance on my system and so far have been very pleased. David | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
David, I don't have the crank-time problem you describe, because I have the genny output wired directly to AC2 in on the Trace (not through an ATS). It doesn't matter how long I set the max crank seconds -- the Trace stops cranking as soon as it sees anything over 80vac on the AC2 input. As long as we're discussing it, though, I'm curious: how does the Genmate know the engine is running? Is it just tied into the 12vdc "engine run" signal (yellow wire on a Wrico terminal strip)? Also, you seem to suggest it varies crank time according to condition -- again, how does it know when to stop cranking? Inquiring minds want to know... -Sean | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.192) Rating: N/A |
Yes it is tied to the 12vdc "engine run" signal. I am pretty sure it is the yellow wire, which is the fuel pump circuit, also. The crank time is programmable. It will crank up to the max time you program, ie. if you set it to crank 10 seconds, it will crank up to 10 seconds or crank until the 12vdc signal hits the panel logic board, at which it immediately disengages the starter. I think it will make up to 5 attempts then stop. Very similar to the Trace programming logic except it recognizes the "engine run" whereas the Trace must see "AC2 HOT in good" to cease its starting sequence. That is the only difference between the two systems as far as I can tell. David |
