| Author |
Message |
Brian Brown (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
Hi All:
I purchased an MCI MC8 in January on eBay in Iowa (I'm from CO). At that time, I came to get it and it had brake issues... parking brakes wouldn't release, leaks from the chamber breathers, etc. I attributed thses issues to the below-freezing weather and left the bus there to thaw out until summer.
Well, I'm finally back in Iowa to get it and it STILL has problems. Bus airs up fine to 120psi. There are no discernable leaks when parking brakes are applied, but leaks excessively from the brake application valve exhaust screen when push/pull valve is down (in service/running mode). Leak does not happen, however, when service brakes are applied.
Here's what I've done so far, to no avail:
- Taken apart and put new o-rings on the brake valve... it looked a little worn inside, but not too bad
- Taken apart the push/pull valve (looked fine inside)
SOOO, what to dig into next? Inversion valve, DD3s, relays? I have the maint. manual, and a few PDFs from Bendix and MCI, but nothing really adresses my specific problem.
I'd just as soon get the major problem fixed and get it home before tearing into linings, bearings, etc. Also, if I can avoid digging into the cans, that'd be great. Getting parts around here is tricky, so I'd have to overnight ship or even drive to Chicago to get diaphrams, etc. from Mohawk.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! I've lurked on this board for months reading info about busses and conversions. I'm hoping to become a productive member of the busnut community once I start working on mine.
Thanks,
Brian Brown |
TWO DOGS (4.227.116.128)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 11:00 am: | |
kinda had a hard time understanding the problem...when do you hear air...where is the air leaking..the complete cans are available & not too evpencive...but...I can't understand your diagnosis...or discription |
TWO DOGS (4.227.116.128)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 11:03 am: | |
you DO know that the parking brakes ONLY release after you push the button in AND ...STAND on the brake pedal HARD for 60 seconds... |
Brian Brown (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 11:12 am: | |
Sorry about any vagueness. Air leaks out the brake valve (i.e. big valve with six lines right under the brake pedal) exhaust port ONLY when push/pull is down AND service brake is not applied.
Basically, the "running down the road" mode.
There doesn't seem to be leaks out of the exhaust port under any other condition.
Standing on service brake when it's pushed in doesn't resolve leak.
Thanks,
Brian Brown |
Deacon (150.199.209.42)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 12:51 pm: | |
Where in Iowa are you? |
Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.155.254.56)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 1:45 pm: | |
Hey 2 dogs- The DD-3 cans are in the $600 range. They aren't spring brakes.
Jim |
Abajaba (12.217.192.62)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 9:30 pm: | |
Brian
I am in the Eastern part of the state of confusio.... err Iowa. YEAH that's where I am, Iowa.
If you need information on places to get parts for heavy equipment let me know and I might be able to point to a few places that could help you out. |
ralph7 (208.148.72.153)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 9:32 pm: | |
You still have a problem in that valve. The cans have a special small diaphram (pancake) and DO NOT sub. When 1 of these is bad it leaks back through R-8 and will not release. e-mail me your phone# so I can call you randjent@tricountyi.net or call us coach ralph7 |
Brian Brown (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 12:45 am: | |
Hi Guys:
Well, I was under the bus until about 9:30 tonite. We got a leaking DD3 can taken off and taken apart. It was a total mess in there... rust city, broken springs, and the parking diaphram was shot. I'm now debating whether to rebuild this can or get a rebuilt one from somewhere. I'll probably replace the foot valve, too, if you think it might be bad.
I'm in Iowa City (eastern part), so I'd love any info on parts places. I know of Sam Caylor in KC, J&B out of Minn., and Mohawk (for new/pricey parts) out of Chicago, but all of those are a long ways from here.
I'll try to get ahold of Abajaba and ralph7 tomorrow for some parts places help.
Thanks, all. I'll keep you posted on my progress.
Brian |
ralph7 (208.155.122.20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 7:54 am: | |
If you did not get my e-mail my phone 717 582 7833 anytime till between 4pm till 8pm est. today ralph7 |
DaveD (142.46.199.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 9:01 am: | |
Rebuilt DD-3s are available at about 1/2 the price of new ones from a number of sources including MCI Parts and Luke at US Coach. You'll need to return the old ones for refund of a significant core charge.
HTH
Dave Dulmage
(MC-8) |
Abajaba (12.217.192.62)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 12:36 am: | |
Brian:
My number is 319 560-3475 during the day and evening. I am in C.R. which is 45 minutes north of you. There is Hawkeye International truck parts on the south side of town not too far from 380. Midwest wheel on the south side of town also. And Sadler Power Train Inc. All of these are only about 45 minutes away from you. Oh yeah, one other is Cortez Truck Equipment.
If you need directions to these places and address information give me a call and I can tell you where they are and how best to get to them.
Abajaba |
Brian Brown (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 8:54 am: | |
Thanks, Abajaba. I'll give you a call if I'm still needing parts today or tomorrow. I was up in CR yesterday getting some Delo 400 40 wt. from Ottsen. My first oil change on a big Detroit. 7 gallons... my goodness. Heck of a storm last night, huh?
Update:
I ordered DD3 parts from Mohawk yesterday and they should be on bro-in-law's doorstep any minute now. I'll still probably have to take apart the brake valve again. Mohawk would only sell me the whole unit at $200 or so and I balked at it. Probably pennywise/ pound foolish.
I'm still trying to visualize how all the air moves through the lines (6 of 'em) on the valve at the various times... parking valve up, parking valve down/no service brakes, and parking valve down/service brakes applied. Never a dull moment...
Thanks all, again. I'll keep you posted.
Bb |
DrivingMissLazy (66.168.175.51)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 9:49 am: | |
Brian, have you changed the oil yet? The proper oil is Delo 100, not Delo 400 I believe.
Richard |
RJ Long (67.181.236.27)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 7:23 pm: | |
Brian -
Look closely at that Delo oil you just bought. Does it have a CF-2 rating on it?
If it does, you can use it.
If it doesn't, you've gotten some of the newer Delo 400, which is NOT recommended for the two-stroke engines.
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
BrianBrownMC8 (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 9:34 pm: | |
Yeah, guys, the 400 was definitely a compromise. The 100 was a special order, and wanted to change from the lousy multigrade 15w-40 that the church used in the coach. I figured that straight 40wt. is better than that, even if the ash content is too high.
I'll look for a supplier of 100 (or Rotella for SF-2) when I get back to Colorado and change it out. Hopefully, 800 miles won't do it too much more harm than the multigrade has done to it so far.
Thanks,
Brian |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (69.3.74.144)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 11:44 pm: | |
Brian, I'm the guy you met in Dallas with the MC9. Can't help with the brakes but wanted to let you know that I'm glad you surfaced. Was wondering how your progress was going. Now I know!
Best,
Chuck |
BrianBrownMC8 (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 8:00 am: | |
Hi Chuck:
Yup, still trying to get 'er home. I've been too busy remodelling the house so far this year to start doing the same to a bus.
How's your's coming along? I saw the picture awhile back showing your temporary bucket solution to nature's calling. I liked its bootstrap ingeneousness.
I'll send you an email when (if) I get the bus back home.
Regards,
Brian |
BrianBrownMC8 (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 8:13 am: | |
Update:
Well, I got the leaking DD3 rebuilt yesterday from parts overnighted by Mohawk. The little package of expensive rubber parts was on my bro-in-law's doorstep at 8:30 in the morning!
After rebuilding a can, I'm impressed with the engineering that went into this system, with the rollers, lock port, and multipe chambers. No wonder the things cost so mucho dinero.
I still have a leaking brake valve and Mohawk is two weeks out on rebuilds. All the big truck parts houses around here can't even pull up a Bendix E-1 on their systems to replace it or even order a kit to rebuild it. They have E-3's, but I don't see how I could make one of them work.
I'm thinking that the leaking part is the inlet/exhaust valve, which looks like a small version of an automotive thermostat. It looks okay, but must be passing just enough air through the spring to be quite a volume at 90 - 120 psi.
Anyways, I have two more days to get the leak fixed before I have to head back.
Wish me well,
Brian |
BrianBrownMC8 (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 1:35 am: | |
Update Round Deux:
I picked up a new E-3 brake valve locally today. More of a plumbing issue than anything else... trying to get long copper hoses with flare nuts on compression fittings to go onto the shorter valve.
Two hours later: STILL LEAKING. Arghh. Wasn't the valve after all.
I started loosening nuts on the delivery side and the smallest one that goes to the stop light switch is leaking air out when the parking brake push-pull is down... then it just leaks right out of the valve exhaust port. Wish I hadn't wasted so much time putting on a new, unnecessary valve.
I start backtracking the copper line and it snakes into three other valves, at least. Unfortunately, "Da Book" is no help here because the printed diagram is for MC8s after model 30531 and mine is 30430, and shows nothing attached upstream of the stop light switch.
I had the bright idea to cap off the offending line after the stop light switch, to cut off the leaking, BUT this gives me no quick release on my park brakes (hmmm... must be one of those valves upstream).
Strangely, if I leave the side of the line after the stop light switch capped tight and just leave the cap on the other end of the new break I made just slightly off (makes a slow, slow hiss), everything works fine and I lose very little air.
So, my thesis is: whatever air is leaking past the bad diaphram(s) in one of those valves needs to exhaust, but doesn't have to be hooked up to the delivery side of the valve.
Still troubleshooting. Sheesh, what a project. Can't wait to get back home and tell everyone, "and this is what I did on my summer vacation, folks."
Brian |
Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8) (68.155.229.93)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 5:49 am: | |
Hey Brian-It's the push-pull valve- I went thru this maddening experience........I had tyhe push pull valve cleaned and inspected by a aircraft mech friend who put in new o rings, ( the correct size) and wrote that off my list of what could cause the problem. It seemed perfect-
but after all else was replaced, out of desperation ordered the P/P valve and Viola! fixed the problem.
All the items that I replaced needed doing anyway, Check the archives here for the info-
Hope this helps Chuck LOtt |
John that newguy (199.232.240.61)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 7:16 am: | |
Brian: When you search for it, enclose the words in quotes: "push-pull"
otherwise you'll end up with everything ever posted with push or pull
in it.
(I@N doesn't allow links to a frame portion included here) |
BrianBrownMC8 (Brianbrownmc8) (12.217.198.97)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 9:33 am: | |
Maybe I'm way off here, but I don't see how it could be the push-pull, in my case. When it's pulled (valve off/ park brakes set), nothing is amiss. When it's pushed in (valve on/ park brakes off) is when there's a leak coming through the stop valve line to the brake valve delivery side(whatever's upstream of it).
I suppose I could replicate the push-pull valve's functionality (with the exception of its ability to pop up) by putting in a tee with a ball valve at the top on the supply line. With the valve open, it sends air to the two delivery lines.
Now, if I had a leak on the park brake side, I could see how the push-pull valve could be a problem by not stopping all the air.
Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this stuff. I'm still learning.
Thanks,
Brian |
Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8) (68.155.229.93)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 11:46 am: | |
Well, You asked......... |
Dallas Farnworth (Dallas) (172.200.119.129)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 10:52 pm: | |
Brian,
Just a thought, but have you replaced the quick release valve? Not that it's true with the DD3 system, but most of the problems I've had on trucks leaking air back with the spring brake system ended up being related to the quick release valve.
I hope that this may help.
Dallas |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.133)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 11:11 pm: | |
Hello BBMC8.
Did you rebuild one DD3 chamber, or both of them?
How did you rule out the other chamber as having air integrity? If one was rotten, I'd be awfully suspicious of the other one...
we need to get you underway!
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
BrianBrownMC8 (Brianbrownmc8) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 12:22 am: | |
End of the saga...
Well, I'm back now in Colorado. Just rolled in with a *different* bus than I left Iowa with. LONG story that I'll post about when I catch my breath...
About the brakes...
I was able to plug the leak to a tiny hiss up in the spare tire compartment. Still an offending diaphram somewhere. But it makes air fine and takes a long time to lose it before the unloader kicks off and fills the tanks back up.
Buswarrior, I was able to determine the bad can by MCI's troubleshooting advice on DD3's: unplug a service hose and listen if a leak comes from the can or the hose. If it's from the can, the leak is in *that* can, if it's from the hose it's from the one on the other side of the axle.
The bad can had a loose splash guard that let in all sorts of water and road grime that led to it's demise. The other side looked, and stopped, fine.
I rolled out of there last Friday and made it about 1,100 miles without incident through western Iowa, up to Minn., then all the way down I-90 to Rapid City for the "Great Bus Trade." Like I said, I'll post another long saga about it soon.
Thanks for all the help, guys. I'm really gonna need some more with my new Fishbowl conversion.
Brian |