| Author |
Message |
H3Jim (68.107.62.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 12:11 pm: | |
I saw your earlier post regarding air-conditioning where you stated that you had used Supertherm ceramic coating on your roof. There have been many discussions here about these coatings and are they worth the additioanl cost. Some say that they are no better than just a good white paint or coating, others suggest that they do work better but can't offer much objective evidence.
Since you just applied it, can you help us out with performance and cost information or anything else you think would help us?
Thanks |
madbrit (67.136.114.172)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 4:26 pm: | |
What I would like to see is a simple test carried out by one of the ceramic bead supporters where they paint some sheet aluminum, half with a good elastomeric reflective coating and the other half with this ceramic bead added to paint. Then place the sheet into direct sun and use a temperature reading gun and report their findings. Then there would be actual proof of the results. Until then, I will keep my elastomeric coatings.
This test goes for any of the new insulators, strange this info is not on their web sites.......
Peter. |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 8:07 pm: | |
I have a friend who is a professor of mechanical engineering and a specialist in solar cooking.
His expertise is sufficient that UNESCO sponsored his lecture series to India and Africa.
I showed him the product when it first was discussed on the BB's and he dismissed it.
The impression I retained is that while the performance "claims" may be accurate, the approach fails to address what "really happens". I was advised not to spend my $$.
Onward and Upward.
Marc Bourget |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (68.79.120.182)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 8:25 pm: | |
I once sat with a highly acclaiimed Physics professor on a flight who told me that after they finish their next experiment, that they would..Get this, I'm not making this up...
He said they would know just about everything.
Gary |
Jerry Liebler (165.121.32.188)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 10:46 pm: | |
Ok, I'll try to summarize. I'm pleased but not done. The stuff is expensive and does help a lot.
I paid $100/gal + shipping. I bought 5 gallons. I used 4 gallons, applied as 2 coats with a roller to the cleaned (with TSP and pressure washing), scuff sanded and spot primed where needed roof. I overcoated the Supertherm with white Enamo Grip, sprayed on.
Before in the sun with the AC units running it was uncomfortable to touch the stock ceiling and very uncomfortable to touch the metal attachments. The best the AC units could do in the sun was keep the inside temp close to but above the outside temp.
After, in the sun with the ac units running: The temperature of the ceiling and metal attachments feels like the same temp as the floor.
At 90 degrees outside the inside temp in the sun is 80, it definitely feels cooler. Now my walls and especially window glass feel much hotter than the roof.
Before in the shade of the barn the AC units could maintain about a 10 degree differential. After, in the shade of the barn the AC units can maintain 18- 20 degrees differential.
I'm going to do the walls of the bus and am considering painting the underside of the roof also before spray foaming but these are going to have to wait as I'm busy moving.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 |
CoryDane RTSII (66.155.188.21)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:28 am: | |
I will not try to dispell anything Jerry Lieber said.
I will say that everything he said is verbatum of what those that applied KOOL SEAL on the roof.
Much cheaper and same effect....
cd |
Jerry Liebler (165.121.35.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:56 am: | |
CD,
Please tell me the date and title of the post that gives thermal performance information, of any kind, on Kool Seal, I can't find it on this board.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
Seems responding to Madbrit's question would provide relevant answers.
More information is needed and questions similar to the following need be asked.
Was the ceramic painted over a previously white or dark roof? Was it cleaned prior to testing and tested before the roof was treated
My source had made the comparisons in laboratory tests or checked credible resources that had. But I know nothing further than what's stated.
Finally, Notice I didn't say the claims were wrong or mis-represented.
By anology, it's perfectly honest to say for instance, that "John pulled the trigger and Ted fell dead" but it's also arguably an omission to leave out the fact that the gun was unloaded and Sam had hit Ted with a baseball bat at the same time.
Poor relevance, but adequate to illustrate the need for Madbrit's side by side comparison.
Agreeing with the sentiment of Jerry Liebler's question, I don't recall anybody posting side by side data in the approach requested by Madbrit.
Onward and Upward
Marc Bourget |
H3Jim (68.107.62.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 8:55 pm: | |
Thanks to you all for your comments. Is there anyone willing and able to do Madbrit's test? perhaps test the ceramic on the bottom surface too as that seems to be oft recommended as well?
I for one would be willing to chip in some $ to help defray any costs of such a test.
Anybody else care to chip in?
Any takers for the test?
I have more hearsay type evidence. One of my neighbors, David Hamm, converted an MCI 8 - 4 or 5 years ago, and sprayed the inside as well as the roof, then followed up with sprayed foam and a reflective barrier. Spent some big $ for all three, and swears by it for both heating and cooling. |
Jerry Liebler (165.121.32.192)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:04 pm: | |
I agree with the spirit of Madbrit's test but would like to really get an indication of heat transfer not just surface temperature. Toward that end I'll propose: 3 pieces of steel , same size (about 1' x 1') braze about a 6" length of say 3/4" copper tubing in the center of each making a sort of mortar board. Coat 1 with each test substance and leave 1 uncoated. Set all on quart jars filled equally with water at the same temperature. Set all 3 in the sun and measure the temperature of the water at hourly intervals.
To answer mark's questions regarding my trial.
My roof was painted white and was cleaned and being preped in the 'before' state. Also my bus has dark blue sides which I'm sure are capturing lots of solar energy.
Under most circumstances I'd be willing to try such a test. But I'm very busy moving my household 2400 miles. I do have a gallon of supertherm that I'd be willing to coat a test piece with for someone doing the test. |
Jerry Liebler (165.121.32.192)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 10:30 pm: | |
I agree with the spirit of Madbrit's test but would like to really get an indication of heat transfer not just surface temperature. Toward that end I'll propose: 3 pieces of steel , same size (about 1' x 1') braze about a 6" length of say 3/4" copper tubing in the center of each making a sort of mortar board. Coat 1 with each test substance and leave 1 uncoated. Set all on quart jars filled equally with water at the same temperature. Set all 3 in the sun and measure the temperature of the water at hourly intervals.
To answer mark's questions regarding my trial.
My roof was painted white and was cleaned and being preped in the 'before' state. Also my bus has dark blue sides which I'm sure are capturing lots of solar energy.
Under most circumstances I'd be willing to try such a test. But I'm very busy moving my household 2400 miles. I do have a gallon of supertherm that I'd be willing to coat a test piece with for someone doing the test. |
H3Jim (68.107.62.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:31 pm: | |
I have the time and inclination to do such a test. I live in East County of San Diego with lots of sun.
That test would not allow a test of coating the underside, but would still give us some valuable information.
Jerry, if you would send it, I would do it.
does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions? |
H3Jim (68.107.62.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:33 pm: | |
And I do have a laser thermometer as well |
John that newguy (199.232.240.122)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 8:03 am: | |
I'm far from being an engineer, but it seems to me that since the
surface of those "test pieces" are so small, that test would be
totally useless. |
H3Jim (68.107.62.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 1:03 pm: | |
John the semi new guy, what would you (or others) suggest? |
John that semi-newguy (199.232.240.122)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 1:18 pm: | |
I'd suggest listening to the people that have spent hard earned
bucks on the stuff.
It's the unsolicited comments from the users of an item that should
be used as a guide to that item's value, not dozens of "scientific
tests". The individuals telling you that they bought it; used it and
are very happy to have spent their money for it, should not be
discounted. They are not making money on the product, or your
purchase of it.
We've all bought items based on "good science" and felt like idiots
afterwards because we didn't listen to the dozens that told us it
was a bad product.
Likewise, when dozens tell us a product is good and worth the money,
we shouldn't disregard their opinion based on some notion that
"science doesn't lie". Doing that is almost as wasteful, since we
end up spending more for the same result.
If it keeps the bus cooler, who cares if it has an "R" factor. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 1:44 pm: | |
Ok now your trying to use common sense without a permit.
Cut it out or I'll report you.
gary |
madbrit (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 2:20 pm: | |
I thought this discussion was about the differences between a white roof coating such as "Koolseal" and the ceramic stuff.
Nowhere have I seen a direct comparitive test carried out. That is why I suggested that this was done and we would have the results first hand of any difference. Afterall, if the temp reduction is the same or only a degree or two and the costs are much more, then the converter has the knowledge to base their decision upon of whether to use the ceramic or not.
It may be only the reflective properties of both products that makes the biggest temp drop and the ceramic makes little or no difference, if that is the case, then we will know that it's not worth the money. But if there is a further significant temp drop, we will know it is worth the extra expense.
Personally, when one considers the insulation (or lack of) in many "stick-n-staple" units, anything a quality bus converter installs will be an improvement.
Peter. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 2:39 pm: | |
http://www.eaglecoatings.net
So do we just presume the site lies?
they give specifics about conduction and BTU's
We have Jerry's observations....
The site does give a lot of references about it's curent uses...
Gary |
madbrit (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 2:58 pm: | |
Gary,
No we don't but we don't know the same test results from "Koolseal" type products. I never said it didn't work, I merely suggested that perhaps a regular "Kolseal" type roof coating would have the same or similar results at a much cheaper cost.
I did notice that they quote an "R-19 equivalent", so what is that? Either it is R-19 or it's not. And if it was R-19, everyone would be using it it place of fiberglass bats, etc.
Peter. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
I noticed is says RE-19.
What the heck it the "E" for?
Gary |
madbrit (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:15 pm: | |
In the text below the pretty picture of rows of colored balls, it says R-19, but it uses the RE-19 higher up in the titles.
Perhaps RE is reflective energy?
Peter. |
Stan (68.150.152.113)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:31 pm: | |
I think everyone is arguing over the term insulation. If you park your bus under a tree on a sunny day it will be cooler inside. That doesn't make the tree an insulator to heat flow. Everyone would agree that if the sun is reflected away from you, you will be cooler. You can do this with an umbrella or white paint with some things being more efficient than others.
To promote your product, you can say that this is the equvalent to a certain amount of insulation but you are not flat out saying that it has that much insulation. We know that an umbrella has no insulating properties whatsoever but it does make us feel cooler in the sunshine. It does not make us feel warmer in the cold air which is what an insulator would do.
If your primary concern is keeping your bus cool on a sunny day then then any method of keeping the sun off the metal roof will help. You can do a comparative test of two paint products and select the better one but you haven't necesaarily used the best one or the most cost effective one, just the better one of the two tested. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:39 pm: | |
Jackpot:
http://www.tprl.com/Stherm.htm
Gary |
madbrit (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
Thanks Gary for finding that webpage, great info.
Peter. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:52 pm: | |
If you Drill through to the FTC site, I don't see supertherm listed as one of the misrepresented claims though.
Gary |
madbrit (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 3:56 pm: | |
Maybe no one has complained or maybe they are under another name or part of a bigger group which is in the list?
Peter. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 4:28 pm: | |
I tried to look for a tie-in to the Kryton product that IS named, but I don't see it.
the Supertherm site is very specific with a lot of detail, while the claims listed by the FTC is vague and overstated.
I'm still not convinced either way. It seems that there is some "missing Info" regarding Supertherm. But I'm not willing to discount it as being impossible without further information.
Gary |
cjm (63.234.7.10)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
Fred Hobe and I sprayed THE INTERIOR of my MCI-8 with the ceramic paint at his shop in Florida. The outside of the bus was black/gray/red/etc. The skin on the OUTSIDE was too hot to hold your hand on for 5 seconds and the same piece of skin ON THE INSIDE was BARELY WARM. I don't know what the temperatures were. I don't know why temperatures were different but they were. I also don't know or care how to build a watch but I can tell time. Who CARES why or how it works. This whole discussion is an example of what's wrong with these boards. "Experts" or "Engineers" will say it can't work or they need scientific data to prove it will work. They wont just take the word of someone who has done it. I have posted on this subject before. I wont waste my time again. John |
John that newguy (199.232.244.50)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 9:28 pm: | |
Hey "CJM"...Don't stop telling it like it is. If it works, it works.
If a guy doesn't want to try it because some scientist or some
formula says it won't work... so what?
If you told them you spent the cash on it and it didn't work, they
would pay attention, wouldn't they? Those that insist it will not
work, regardless of what you say have already made their minds
up. Forget 'em. They don't matter. The ones that matter are the
ones looking for a decent product that will do the job. If you
found that this product does what's advertised, I have no reason to
disbelieve you. And I'm sure there are hundreds of others that
feel exactly as I do.
Your first-hand experience with this product is worth more than
a million second-hand tests. Thanks "CJM". |
madbrit (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 10:54 pm: | |
This whole subject is getting boring, what with all the nasty comments about other peoples opinions. It has been done to death and basically when it comes down to it, it is a personal thing.
If you believe everything you read or are told by perfect strangers, then go ahead, do your thing. But if you want to know first hand, then do your own simple test like I described many posts ago and you will know what is what.
I didn't suggest how large a piece of metal should be used, but something about 2 feet square should do for the ceramic and another piece for the elastomeric reflective paint, you could even do a third test using plain bright white paint.
Ofcourse, to save yourself a lot of trouble, you could go with the findings of that website that Gary posted.
Now if you want to include the internal ceramic coatings too, then the test would be far more use to the converter's community.
Maybe some of these manufacturers would sent the tester a small sample for testing purposes to save buying a large quantity.
Peter. |
John that newguy (199.232.240.137)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 8:01 am: | |
No need to feel anyone's getting nasty, Peter. That's not usually
the intention of anyone's post, including any of mine. There are
times it's difficult to put into type, what's really trying to come
out of the head...
My point is simple: You already have the best tests taken of that
product. The tests were made buy users of that material, not
someone that's out to perpetrate a scam or trying to gain a profit
from the sale of that, or similar material.
Some of your fellow busnuts that have applied that product have
said it actually works! And they said it's better than whatever color
material was on their roof prior to the application. They even
applied it to the inside and made note of the results, all positive.
What more can be asked for? We have first-hand usage of this
product from members of our own "group"; Members that have
spent their own money to find out if it works or not?
Questioning "what you are told by perfect strangers" is always
prudent, but those demanding and making these homebrewed
"tests" of this product are also "strangers", aren't they.
If you ask what results I would accept to be true and real, I will
always put my money on the one that's spent theirs.
I guess some people still believe Columbus fell off the edge, ehh? |
John Rigby (65.112.227.94)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 8:10 am: | |
I hope the ceramic works I have 10 gallons of it in my shed ready to be sprayed on. CJM.You make me feel better and everything I have read of Fred Hobe,s how too,s have been excellent.
Thanks again CJM.
John |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:22 am: | |
I have tried to look at this objectively, from both sides, but honestly, based on the "Testimonials" of those who used it (None of which went like: "I tried it, it's BS"). I think I will try it myself.
Seriously, R19, in a paint, is very hard to believe. However if it give only R9, that would be a big deal, since you STILL have room for your conventional insulation (Glass, Isocy, etc...) Also, any coating that reduces thermal transfer is a big deal, since you can paint it on the ribs and reduce transfer between interior materials.
I have the luxury of time, in that I can wait and listen to other's experiences before I have to pony up myself. My coach is only half-reskinned. As soon as the port side is skinned, I will need to decide for sure.
I may just buy the stuff myself, even though R19 is hard to swallow.
Gary |
John that newguy (199.232.240.137)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:25 am: | |
If you think R19 is hard to swallow,
wait until those glass beads hit your lips. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:34 am: | |
I was more concerned about the other end.
Gary |
John that newguy (199.232.240.137)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:42 am: | |
Uhh... oh yeah... the "outsulating factor".
I guess it'd splash more than usual. |
John that newguy (199.232.240.137)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:44 am: | |
Listen.... I -will not- need to see an actual test of that. |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 10:17 am: | |
We'll just have to let you know how it all comes out. |
madbrit (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 1:16 pm: | |
John,
Yes, things were getting to their usual level of nit-picking other peoples differing opinions, which unfortunately seems to be the latest trend on many of these groups.
You also missed my point, which was there are no comparitive tests from one product to another. What I was getting at is that the paint, or reflective elastomeric, or ceramic coating may all work, and if they all reduce the temp about the same amount, why spend the extra money when a plain white paint job could do the same as the expensive ceramic product. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, there are a lot of opinions from people who have applied all the different products, but again, no actual comparisons to the other similar products.
In this world of "snake-oil" products, one has to take the attitude of "buyer beware", hence my suggestion of a test done by the prospective applier. Take a look at the diet pill industry as an example, "If you take our pill and eat properly and exercise, you will loose weight". Duh, of course you will and you don't need the pill.
I personally don't care what anyone does as it is up to them to do their own research. I am already committed to my design which is using 3.5" of high performance Celo-tex insulation foam board, giving me R-25.2 and a good coat of white elastomeric on the outside. I will have R-16.2 in the walls too. I feel that it will be quite sufficient. Afterall, how much insulation do you really need, especially when one considers many buses and RVs came from the factory with barely an inch or two of fiberglass installed.
Peter. |
John that nitpikkinnewguy (199.232.244.84)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 3:25 pm: | |
Pete... To nitpick another's opinion is a hobby in itself. Someday I
hope to have perfected it to the point I might be able to win the
coming event of the Nitpicker of the Year award. I always managed to
get beat out of it by some judge finding fault with some petty issue...
I didn't miss your point at all, I was just ignoring it (just kidding).
I agree that there may be some major differences between all the
products that state that they are "equivalent to" some "R factor".
Finding out who is real and who's on Memorex would take time,
money and testing procedures most of us do not have access to.
Instead, why not listen to those that have tried specific products,
have had great results with those products, and just buy those
specific products? If "Supertherm" is said to be great stuff, why
bother looking at another product claiming the same quality, for
the sake of trying to save a few dollars?
And yes, we all know and accept the fact that brand-name products
are often released under the guise of another name. WalMart doesn't
make bleach, they buy it from a producer.. it could be Clorox..
Perhaps SuperTherm is marketed under another name also.
If so, let's find out what it is.
"comparative tests" are only as good as the test and tester involved.
Painting an entire roof with a compound and noting how much cooler
it is afterward is a whole one-thousand degrees hotter to the truth
than painting one side of a small piece of metal and seeing how much
cooler it keeps a glass of water it's sticking into. Let's get serious here.
To do the test properly, you'll need a bus and a hanger that's
temperature controlled. You'd have to paint the roof, expose it to
sunlight at a set direction and intensity and take readings. Then strip
the paint off, paint it again with the next product and repeat the tests.
I think I'd prefer to take the word of a fellow busnut that's been there;
done that and is wearing the official "T" shirt to prove it.
Money isn't everything, Pete. I'd rather spend a few bucks more for
what has been proven to be good, than to spend it on a product that
has only been in a simulated "test" situation surrounded in dubious
circumstances. |
Niles whonitpicksasgoodasthenewguy (24.73.65.124)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 4:59 pm: | |
Everyting ^^^^^^^^^^ he said and "why is everbody pickin on me?" (see I one upped ya!) |
John that newpain (199.232.244.160)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 9:18 pm: | |
did not |
unpaid witnessguy (67.136.98.38)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:45 am: | |
did too, I saws ya!!!! |
BrianMCI96A3 (208.17.77.130)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 8:28 am: | |
You guys are just knitting pickers, aren't ya?
Brian |
John that newguy (199.232.240.181)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 9:37 am: | |
Hey - put a Supertherm on it. |