| Author | Message | ||
| Bill (205.188.116.135) Rating: N/A |
I was wondering if somebody could, in layman terms , describe how a a 3 stage regulator works.Because I think I cooked 6 batteries Iam rather electically challenged. Bill 4104-4032 | ||
| Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81) Rating: N/A |
Go surf the site at www.amplepower.com This guy is the "guru" on batts. This site will give you a great education on gensets and batts. His 12Volt series of books are a "must buy" for the converter. Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| Bill 340 (166.157.103.65) Rating: N/A |
Try looking here. GREAT site for Basic knowledge, Good Luck Bill 340 http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html | ||
| Jerry Liebler (165.121.32.232)
Rating: N/A |
Bill, I'll take a stab at a 'laymen's terms' explanation with some of the reasons. First the reasons: As a lead acid battery nears full charge gas bubbles form at the interface between the plate and electrolyte. The gas bubles are a near insulator and cause a rather large voltage drop. It takes current (amps) to store charge in the battery. Because of the effect of the gas bubbles the voltage must be held higher than 'normal' to complete the charging in a reasonable time. How it's typically done: I'll use a nominal 12 volt battery in the example. A typical 'float' voltage will be 13.6, at this voltage very little gas is produced. When charging begins with a battery at say 12.0 volts the current will be limited only by the charger. If the charger's maximum voltage is 13.6 as in a typical 'dumb charger the battery will be charged to about 80% of capacity when the current starts to fall due to gasing. It will take days at 13.6 volts to reach a fully charged state. In a 3 stage charging system the charger's voltage limit is first set at about 14.4 volts. at 14.4 volts considerable gasing is ocuring but charging is continuing. Now when the current falls to a small enough value the battery is fully charged and the extra .8 volts is only making gas. At this time the three stage charger will drop the voltage limit to 13.6 to keep the full charge. The time when the charger is the current limiter and the voltage is below 13.6 is called 'bulk'. The time when the voltage is above 13.6 is called 'absorption'. And the time when the charger's voltage limit is 13.6 is called 'float'. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A |
Other than AmplePower ($350!), does someone have a source for an affordable three-stage regulator? It's my understanding that one could replace the OEM "dumb" regulator with one of these and use the coach generator/alternator to recharge the starting batts AND house batts while driving... through either a separator, solenoid, or isolator. Like Bill, I have a LOT to learn, as well. FBB | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.139.151.105)
Rating: N/A |
I picked up a Xantrex regulator last year from Online Marine (www.onlinemarine.com)in NC for $206 with shipping. I think Xantrex is the only one making this regulator. It does work well. The alternator puts out its maximum 100 amps for the bulk and then does the absorption and float. You can put a switch on the dash to turn it off if battery charging is not needed. It will save a little gassing since it goes into bulk mode each time the vehicle is started regardless if it was just on float mode when shut down even a minute ago. I strongly recommend against charging the bus starting batteries and the deep cycle house batteries from the same source. Get a stand-alone alternator for the house and leave the bus alternator for the bus only. The two battery types have different charging needs and are not compatible. You can get a rebuilt alternator for $100 from your local auto electric repair shop. You'll save twice that in batteries the first year by keeping them separate. Jim | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (67.136.241.239)
Rating: N/A |
Since I have no idea, are these electronic three stage battery chargers user adjustable? Like different charging profiles for lead acid, ni cads and nickle iron cells? Just curious. Thanks. | ||
| FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A |
Jim: I think your two alt. idea makes sense: leave the bus gen. and regulator on the start side, and add a automotive-style, belt-driven alt for the house side. I'm finding some remanuf. alts. on eBay, 100A one-wires, for about $70. I'd think that one of these run into a three-stage regulator would do wonders for keeping the house side intelligently-charged while driving. Thanks for the ideas, FBB | ||
| Jerry Liebler (165.121.35.9)
Rating: N/A |
All, It should be rather easy to modify the original regulator in my GMC to provide two output voltages. GM was kind enough to fully document the circuit both schematic and PWB layout. When I get some time I'll remove the potentiometer and replace it with three wires to an added box. the added box will contain a relay and two potentiometers, one to set float volts, one to set bulk-absorption. I'll also add a timer and voltage detector, and the logic to select float after a set time in at the absorbtion limit. Meanwhile I run the bus and house batterys in parallel through a contactor when the bus alternator is charging with the bus regulator set at 13.6. I also charge both bus and house(in parallel through the same contactor) through the Trace PS2512 when on generator or shore. I have flooded batterys in both places so the charge needs are very similar. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.66.104)
Rating: N/A |
Deep cycle and starting batteries have been close enough to charge both banks with either system, like Jerry's. The Link confirms the power status for both banks, including any overcharge, so the only thing we have to watch out for is that the banks are separated if we're parked for awhile. We don't worry about it for overnight if we're going to travel the next day. If they are not separated, the starting bank will discharge before the house bank. For recharging, they do very well. The recharge voltage is high enough that the differences in chemistry are virtually masked. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| FAST FRED (4.245.221.220) Rating: N/A |
While proper charging while being used as a camper is needed , there are other methods. The addition of an alternator on the gen set is sometimes EZ and a few folks use the noisemaker enough that it would work.All day with aircond. Second "solution" for weekend campers is just a good Smart battery charger and let the PP do the charging after the weekend is over. A great everyone "solution" is a solar pannel or two and Trace C12 to maintain the batts 100% while (or after) the coach is used. Seems to me that more batts are killed from lack of charge , just sitting , than underway by overdischarge. WE use the second and third methods combined as we seldome dry camp for over 4 or 5 days in a row , and the 120V charger does all the hard work , and the solar gets everything 100% (equalizing charge too!) after a day or so. Works for me, FAST FRED | ||
| Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81) Rating: N/A |
Running parallel alternators - First, integrally regulated alternator units don't adapt to a 3 stage very well. Smead observed that a Ford Alt. (at that time) was externally regulated and was easily converted. Second, if you wanted to 3 stage the start batts at the same time, you'd need a second regulator because of the following point. Something in my memory tugs at Smead advising that start batts and house batts (true deep cycle) have slightly but significantly (longevity wise) different charging profiles. You have to consider the chemical acceptance rates, not just the fact that battery requires charging. The two styles have different acceptance rates. Keep in mind, this is greatly affected by the relative sizes of the banks and the state of discharge. Having said that, I'll punt until I re-read this area in Smead. I don't think Smead spoke to this directly, and, as a result, you may consider review Smead or consider this the rumination of a raving maniac! Disclaimer: I'm offering these points not as a declaration of dogma, but to prompt the thought processes of others. FWIW Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.139.136.55)
Rating: N/A |
Henry- yes they have several options covering all battery types and, charging time and voltage options within each type. As Marc said, the Ford blueback is a good externally regulated alternator for 12v. I had to have another type for the 24v alternator. I can speak from 2 years of experience charging starting batteries and house batteries on my MCI from the same source. It doesn't work. No matter what the conditions, one set of batteries always boiled excessive water out. Cooked a set of batteries in 2 years. One extra dedicated alternator at $100 paid for itself instantly and the replacement batteries lasted the next 7 years when I sold the bus. The outfit, that converted my Prevost originally, thought that the two 50 amp Vanner equalizers that Prevost installed would be a good source of 12v charging off the bus 24v system. Wrong idea again. If I left dry camping having used 250 amp-hours and "charged" the house batteries off the bus system, only 20 amp-hours were replaced in a 2 hour drive home. With the dedicated 12v alternator and the 3 stage regulator, 175 amp-hours are replaced in that same drive home. The biggest value of the 12v alternator is not for driving home where I could plug in but for driving cross country where we stop a truck stops and never plug in for a week at a time. No genset time. FF would love it. Jim | ||
| FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A |
FF et. al: Since I’ve already glommed on to this thread, lemme ask another few questions for you guys… If I install a Xantrex Prosine inverter that has the built-in 3-stage 100A charger ( link here), I believe that I could just charge the house bank from the “noisemaker” and the PP. I could then leave the start side with its OEM alt./gen & reg. alone AND also avoid a separate alt. for the house side. This is probably the most KISS solution. BUT, I also want to run the refer (house elec. unit) constantly and the occasional microwave use while driving for maybe 6-8 hours a stretch. The engine-powered alt. is somewhat “free” energy, compared to the genset, that I’d only otherwise need to run in the summer for rooftop AC and/or re-charging the house-side. Would the extra expense/ hassle of a separate alternator and its requisite charging issues be worth it, in your opinion(s)?? FYI: It’s not our intention to boondock for days at a time, only for nights spent in-transit on these 800 – 1200 mile trips that we make several times a year. Thanks! FBB | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.133.150.139)
Rating: N/A |
FBB- do it. The fridge will draw 1.6 amps(ac) cycling for 1/2 the time so its 8Adc x 8hr= 64 AH. Out of a 400 AH battery bank, you'll never notice it. Icemaker adds a little more. Micro to re-heat leftovers or boil coffee- 15 min. max during travel at 12 amps(ac) is 120Adc x 1/4hr= 30AH. When combined with the fridge you've got under 100 AH which will take 1-1/2 hours to recharge with the inverter charger using the genset while its running the A/C's. My situation is that I don't need to run the roof airs on the road since the dash air is adequate to cool the bus where I drive. I've never yet run the roof airs (and therefore the genset) over the road in 4 years. So, the extra alternator works great for me. Its all how you use the bus. As an example, I don't have solar because the bus is parked out of the sun when not in use. It wouldn't do me a bit of good. Do what works for you. Jim | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.134.4.188)
Rating: N/A |
On many alternators, a rebuilder can simply remove the internal regulator and replace it with the terminals for an external regulator. Used to work with Delco. | ||
| FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Jim. I'll try the genny & inverter/charger combo on my first trips and see if I'd ever need an alternator-charged house bank. I think that having the inverter will help me out a lot more than the ability to top off the house side while driving. I can always add an alt. later if my camping style changes. Thanks again, FBB | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.234)
Rating: N/A |
FBB's solution is my kinda thinking. I have been thinking very similarly, and now will ask this question - does this kind of solution obviate the reason/argument/stance that the battery bank should be the same voltage as the coach bank? In other words, *if* one is using a similar solution, is there any reason a house bank should be 24v bank when that's what the coach has? Isn't life just easier in general with a 12v house bank? | ||
| FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A |
Chuck: I'm obviously not the expert here, but I read up a fair bit on the 12v/24v debate back when I actually had a 24v system (on the MCI), and I think the biggest pro for 24v is the smaller amperage/wiring requirements to carry the same load vs. 12v. Plus, if one were to use the coach 24v alt to charge the house side, it'd *have* to be a 24v bank. BUT, if you're keeping a totally separate system, like I'm thinking about making mine, it's much easier to find the 12v stuff to run on the house side than 24v. Otherwise, you're having to buy an equalizer to do the 24v to 12v conversion downstream of your batts... just one more expensive item to buy. Sure, wire sizes will be larger because of the doubled amperage vs. 24v. Maybe if you needed a 4000 watt inverter or something, where the wire size in 12v would be massive compared to 24v... Hopefully, someone else will chime in, but the 12v house side just seems IMHO to fall in line with the KISS strategy. BTW, there's plenty of good reading in the archives on 24v/12v debates. Check it out. FWIW, FBB | ||
| FAST FRED (4.245.221.186) Rating: N/A |
The huge size of the stock coach alt would make it the perfect candidate to run the house side. 3 stage regulation ONLY speeds up and refines the charge process , not absolutly necessary if long drives get between the camping. A small car alt with internal regulator would be perfect for recharging the bus side , as the only loads are very minor IF the orig Bay blowers have been tossed. Second choice would be the house hooked to the stock coach alt with a recharge relay to give somthing back to the start batt for the first half hour or so ONLY. Not seamless so not KISS, dash timer? FAST FRED | ||
| FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A |
FF: More "noobie" questions abound... So if one moves the coach alt. over to the house side w/o an expensive 3-stage reg., does one remedy the "cooked battery syndrome" by playing with the "dumb" regulator voltage? If so, what's a good voltage? Mine's a 12v system using a Delco-Remy 235A generator and a transistorized Delco-Remy reg. Xantrex makes an echo charger like the second choice you mention, which could use some charge from the house side to top off the start side. Assuming I can figure how a PP/genset inverter/charger works into such a system, the goal would be to use the "free" energy of the coach alt. between genset/PP 3-stage charges. This setup KISS enough? Thanks, FBB | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay) (208.34.240.44)
Rating: N/A |
__. another noobe question == Jim Ashworth said "I can speak from 2 years of experience charging starting batteries and house batteries on my MCI from the same source. (snip) With the dedicated 12v alternator and the 3 stage regulator, 175 amp-hours are replaced in that same drive home. " __. Let me be sure that I'm asking the right question or at least understanding you right. Are you saying that you added a second alternator onto the engine? Like with a double V-belt pulley and two belts driving the original alternator (for starting side) and the second alternator for charging house batteries? | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.66.104)
Rating: N/A |
FBB, some of the inverters made by Xantrex are Hearts that are described as marine inverters. Aside of the additional effort made to prevent damage due to moisture, some of them come with one echo charger, and a few come with two. The idea is to use the inverter charger to replenish heavily drained batteries and the echo charger to top off one or two engine starting banks without the need to use a combining relay. If you had a relay, that should only be needed for giving the engine batteries a boost for starting. It should be rated heavy enough to handle starting currents. Very few are. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (64.105.16.234)
Rating: N/A |
WHEW - I just tuned back into this thread after being focused on waterworks all day. I did study the 24 vs. 12 archives and have a database section full of info on that, that I was saving till later to get into deeply. I thought this might be a good thread to ping to get a little further clarity, but I know one thing - I ain't MAN enough to switch the MCI alternator to house and vice versa! You gotta be a stud to do those kind of things. I think I'll continue my 'ignorance is bliss for another month or so before I address all this. Sorry I butted in and will gracefully monitor this discussion from 'psychologically afar'!  | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.171.23.81)
Rating: N/A |
Bruce- I added a 12 volt alternator on the front end of the engine driven off the main crankshaft pulley. I used only one 'A' belt on the original a/c pulley groove. The original bus alternator can stay where it is on the back of the engine. That's the information you are trying to verify, I assume, so, yes, you have the right question. Actually, I took off the bus alternator and capped the opening and added a second (24v) alternator next to the 12 volt one on the front and used the second a/c pulley groove to drive that one. My engine had the large alternator but no over-the-road a/c so the 270amp alternator was totally unneeded. The 75amp one is doing the job just fine even running with the lights on at all times when driving. Jim | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay) (208.34.240.48)
Rating: N/A |
Jim wrote: "Bruce- I added a 12 volt alternator on the front end of the engine driven off the main crankshaft pulley. (snip) and added a second (24v) alternator next to the 12 volt one on the front and used the second a/c pulley groove to drive that one. (snip) Jim " __. Many thanks for this info. Sorry for the noobe questions, but do I also assume that you run your A/C off of one of these engine driven alternators through an inverter when on the road? And that alternator is also the one that charges your "house batteries" and that charging facility has to go through one of the three-stage charge controllers to properly charge those house batteries -- and you use "shore power" to run the 120-volt items when parked where electric is available? And the other (the 12-volt????) alternator fulfills it's normal/ unconverted role of charging starting batteries and providing on-road lights, etc? __. (I'm going to have to wait to see exactly how my engine is set up -- I'd guess that nobody on here has any experience with adding alternators to a O-680 Leyland diesel engine???? I don't even know if the standard electrical system is 12- or 24-volt. But "The Management" has already said that she wants a full-size kitchen-type refigerator, so I'm expecting to need plenty of charging capacity.) __. Again many thanks for the basic info. I'm in the very basic planning stages -- my bus is still on the Atlantic ocean, so this is very helpful and much appreciated. Bruce Henderson, Wallace NC | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (65.130.18.255)
Rating: N/A |
Jim Ashworth, If a person already has two Vanner Equalizers today, I would strongly recommend that he install a second 24 volt alternator and tap the 12 volt terminal of the house batteries for all 12 volt needs. Aside from starting and headlights, 50 amps will supply all 12 volt needs and you can then use 24 volt lighting and 24 volt inverters. On Inverters, the smaller wire for 24 volt becomes significant. Gives redundancy since either charging system can charge both house and bus batteries in the event of failure of one charging system and the house batteries can start the engine if needed. Since we will surely all be using a lot of LED interior lighting in the future, the problem of finding 24 volt bulbs disappears, since LEDs are less voltage sensitive and it is also possible to add a small resitor in the wiring to make any 12 volt LED lamp work on 24 volts. The ideas on using two 24 volt systems with two Vanner equalizers are not mine. Three years ago I was advised by email by a person from one of the bus bulletin boards of this solution to problems with my battery and charging systems. I wish I knew who gave me that advice. My computer crashed and I lost the email records. The solution of two 24 volt systems with two vanner equalizers and tapping the 12 volt house terminal has been absolutely perfect. I would do it again. | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.200.71.145)
Rating: N/A |
Bruce- The 24v is dedicated to only the bus system. The 12v is the house. I have dash air from an engine mounted compressor and do not use roof airs over the road. If the time came that I needed more than the dash air, I would start the genset and use the roof airs. Steve- The house is 12v and the 2 equalizers (in parallel for 100 amps draw) were installed by Prevost on the bus 24v side. The original converter used the 12v output from these in an attempt to charge the house batteries. The Prevost equalizers don't work to charge the house batteries which is why I installed the 12v alternator. In general the 24v inverter requires smaller wire but with only 30" to go, it wasn't a consideration. Most of my loads are small, fridge and TV. For the occasional high draw short duration microwave or coffeemaker use, losses are insignificant through the 4/0 wire. My previous conversion was 24v house system. With this conversion I opted for 12v. An informed decision that I'm happy with. Much simpler and no equalizer to fail. I replaced the other one in KC, KS on a freezing rain January day to the tune of $300+. I don't want to do that again. The more electronic or other stuff there is, the greater possibility for failure. I do like things simple, although not primitive. I agree the use of two 24v systems provides backup but so does the genset, with the inverter to charge the house and with a 24v charger to take care of the bus. All I'm missing is a way to jump start with the house batteries. I do, however, have roadside assistance but never had a starting problem in 14 years of bus ownership. Jim | ||
| daffycanuck (66.82.9.61)
Rating: N/A |
We've been fulltiming now for almost 6 years. I run a Trace 4024 Invertor, so the house side is 24 volt as well as the starting. Solar panels along with generator do the charging while boondocking. House batteries are monitored via an e-meter. Charging both sets of batteries (in parallel) is done by a 175 amp 24 volt belt driven alternator....house batteries first then starting....a (Fused)150 amp solenoid disconnects starting batteries when key is turned off. House 12v, such as controls for fridge, water heater, tank guages, fantastic fans, etc is supplied by a Vanier battery equalizer. I also run a 12v system, (100 amp alternator) to supply power for exterior lighting and any drivetrain 12v requirements such as guages, air dryer etc. While driving down the road I run the fridge on 110v and if needed, I use the house air, powered by the invertor. I never run the generator while running down the road. It has never happened, but if it did I could charge the starting batteries with the generator via the invertor. This system has been rock solid and I would definately do it the same way. Jim | ||
| FishbowlBrian (Fishbowlbrian) (67.165.212.171)
Rating: N/A |
I wanted to say a big thanks for all that took the time to post helpful tips and info on charging and electrical matters. It's a huge help to noobies like me. Also, these posts can live on indefinitely in the archives for others that are trying to learn all they can about this complicated area. It's Busnut U. around here... and my hat's off to all of you professors! FBB |