| Author | Message | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 456 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213  Rating: N/A |
Well, at least not as far as the transmission not going into gear goes! Have been going over the air schematic for our 102D3 and can find no relationship between the air system and the transmission. I have eliminated the park brake as the reason that the transmission wont go into gear. Best guess is an electrical problem. Used contact cleaner on all the gang plugs and took apart and cleaned all 4 ground wires from the computer. I haven't been able to get to the box on the transmission yet because of where it is. Seems like some bright engineer designed it so you cant get at it unless the coach is up in the air, hard to do when it wont move. If the weather stays nice I think I will bite the bullet and have Waterious come out next week with the mobile service rig. If this does turn out to be a bad wiring harness I think that I might replace all of that wire. Price depending! | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 2238 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.71.157  Rating: N/A |
Think back...did you do anything to coach since last time it went into gear? | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 457 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
I really haven't had a lot of bus time at all this winter so can't say that I have done anything mechanical to it since last fall. About all that I have worked on has had to do with the hydronic heating system and a little interior work. Funny that you ask because I was asked that question by someone else recently. I just hope this turns out to be one of those dumb little things and not one of the big expensive things. In the mean time I have a lot of other things on the coach to do that don't require it to move but this is frustrating. Thanks for listening to me rant! Les | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2256 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.91.141.38  Rating: N/A |
If there is an electrical connection to an air system pressure switch, it will be found in the transmission schematics. My suspicion, if this is indeed the problem, or if it exists, it will piggy back on one of the existing switches that is labelled for another brake purpose, like the brake lights. The B500 with retarder also needs an air source for activation, the option for which the air schematics you have don't show. Yes, they are sometimes mean to us... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 632 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38  Rating: N/A |
Les Sounds like you are saying the transmission computer is under the bus near the transmission. What a dumb place to put it. The biggest problem with electronics is corrosion on the contacts. I would certainly move it inside a compartment. There are two 30 pin plugs on it. One basicly goes to the shifter pad and the other one to the transmission plug. Just take your time and extend the wires to a new location but do not use butt connectors. They are the source of so many problems. Solder and shrink wrap all connections. Too bad you don't have a ProLink to test it. Bill | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 458 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
No retarder on this one that I know of. Engine has a jake. So far haven't found any air/electrical/transmission connection. That said it doesn't mean that it doesn't exists. Brake lights and dash tell tale for park brake also is working properly. I wonder if the model number off the computer would tell if this switch exists on this unit or not. I wish they would give this kind of detail in the disk I bought | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 459 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
P.S. I looked in the dash on the left side for such a switch... NADA Nothing that has an air line and electrical going to it. I will have a look in the electrical cabinet under the drivers window tomorrow | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2262 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.91.141.38 Rating: N/A |
The schematics should show the option of these connections, whether your coach is equipped or not. Yes, I think the intent was that you will find these connections in the outside electric compartment under the driver. The word "dash" got used meaning inside the left side panel outside, not inside. I expect you will find a number of interesting things in the bottom of that compartment. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 755 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120  Rating: N/A |
While doing the work inside, is it possible that you accidentally drilled into or put a screw into the harness that runs to the keypad??? Don't ask why this comes to my mind! Can you remove the keypad & plug it into the module at the rear? (eliminate the front to back harness for test) | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 460 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
No screws into the harness, but was a good idea. I dont think I can take the key pad and go directly to the transmission because the computer is in between plus there is only 6? Wires going to the key pad and 24 to the computer with a similar number going out of the computer to the transmission. It is likely that one of the wires in one of the harnesses has been compromised by either corrosion or fatigue . Could be hard to find but if they can determine what part of the harness is bad then that section can be replaced. I am hoping that BW is right and that there is still a switch failure that is the problem. Lots easier and cheaper! | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1379 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.12.170.162 Rating: N/A |
With a 11.1 series 60 and B500 I foresee a hand held reader in your future Les or some very costly service calls lol good luck | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 633 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Les Look at this on Ebay. 200704246653 Might save you some headaches. Bill | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 608 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Les I have a spare key pad | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 461 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
I wouldn't mind trying it Joe. I have mine apart now. If only coaches were as easy to fix as water! | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 609 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Les's reference to water in the above post came about because he installed a new waterconditioner in our house last week and mama is well pleased. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 1026 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15  Rating: N/A |
Spare key.. wife is sure satisfied now... and they call you the WATER guy...? ..I ain't even goin there... scrooplez..ya know !  (Message edited by Jack_fids on January 31, 2012) | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 462 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Easy there FIds! No point in digging us both a hole. | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 448 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 74.41.14.235  Rating: N/A |
I'm waitin with the shovel!LOL Chromie | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 1027 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15 Rating: N/A |
Well if'n I do start digging with Chomie along at least there'll be light when it gets deep if not a load of laughs you got waders Dave ? | ||
| Cable (Fe2_o3)
Registered Member Username: Fe2_o3 Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 50.46.185.136  Rating: N/A |
A company I worked for had a micro switch in the drivers seat.. Had a switch that wouldn't let it go in gear if driver was not in seat..Switch went bad and had to bypass to get it to the shop.Just thinkin out loud...Cable | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 463 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
I don't think there is a switch in the seat but I will look. I know some garden tractors have a switch that wont let you start the engine unless someone is in the seat | ||
| Cable (Fe2_o3)
Registered Member Username: Fe2_o3 Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 50.46.185.136 Rating: N/A |
Any other interlocks in the system? High idle off, maxi on, rear controls switched to forward, door closed..etc..Cable | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 464 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Not that I have found. But all good ideas As soon as the park brake is released the high idle goes off. I remember moving the bus last summer with the door open so I could see to line up on my platform and have only been using the front controls. Still looking for the air switch, or will be when time allows. Work has gotten a bit hectic in the last few days | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 467 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Well the problem persists I called MCI technical support to see if they could shed any light on my transmission issue. They were able to tell me that the only fail safe is the brake light switch and that is working. Because the up and down arrows won't put the computer into diagnostic they believe that the key pad is most likely the problem, unfortunately it is a very expensive, non returnable part and if it is not the problem that money would be wasted. Joe Padburg was good enough to loan me a spare key pad that he had out of a different bus but it is not the right one (thanks Joe, I will drop it off to you later) I will be looking for the right one to try. Part number is 29507949 If anyone has a spare one or knows of somewhere that I might buy one from a parts bus I would like to see if that is the problem before shelling out the money for a new one. I tried to get the local Alison dealer to send out their mobile service truck to do a scan on the coach. At $140 per hour it is still cheaper than starting to change parts that may or may not be the problem. They suggested that I get the coach towed into their shop. I may have to do that but getting it out of the yard and hooked up to a tow truck would be a challenge. It is a tight squeeze to get it in and out under it's own power. For anyone who might have a spare key pad, My transmission is a B500 and the coach is a 1994 MCI 102D3 | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 757 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 184.0.13.120 Rating: N/A |
Maybe you could send your pad to MCI & they could test it for you?? | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1383 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.190.159 Rating: N/A |
When you press and hold the mode button do you get a tone ? try adding 1 qt of tranny fluid (Message edited by luvrbus on February 04, 2012) | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 468 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
I will have to try that but what does the tone mean? MCI will sell me a new pad but it sounds like they have no way to test just the pad... However I might call Alison and see if they can test it. Thanks for the idea JimBob | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 308 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 174.91.218.68  Rating: N/A |
Are you batteries low? Many of the newer electronic thingmabobs need nice solid voltage to work properly and batts being recharged by the alt are not high enough voltage....just spitballing, still think a switch somewhere is hung up and warmer weather will cure all, if you don't need to move it a little patience will prove out that one. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1384 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.190.159 Rating: N/A |
When you push the mode key you should have a tone you know like a ding ding or bell ringing best I can describe it lol what series is your ATEC if your bus has the kneeling feature it interlocks with the B500 good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on February 04, 2012) (Message edited by luvrbus on February 04, 2012) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 1677 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.219.107.187  Rating: N/A |
Les...I just had two (2) low air switches replaced. Hadn't been a problem, but "they" thought they would be before long....(????) One was under the dash..the other in the rear, between tandems (I have a Crown) As I understand it, either would have "kept me from going". Just FWIW  RCB | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 469 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
The coach does have the kneeling feature but it has been disabled and up to this point it hasn't been a problem. After studying the air schematic and as much of the electrical as I have reference for I can't see any air related electrical that would prevent the transmission from going into gear. No tone or other sound from the mode button. I am not sure what series the ATEC is but I bet I can get that off the computer. Fortunately they put it on the wall of the baggage compartment. I will get more time on it tomorrow and as they say "tomorrow is another day" | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1386 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.190.159 Rating: N/A |
You will need a reader there are 300 codes and sub codes for the B500 lot more than shown on page 66 and 67 in the manual lol. You can buy the ATDT software for your laptop keep checking Ebay and you may get lucky and find the problem by changing parts doubt it fwiw you can download a manual for 35 bucks from Allison for the B500 I have a hard time believing the brake lite is the only interlock on the bus and I have never saw a shift pad or tower that did not have some type alarm when the mode was engaged yours is the first good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on February 05, 2012) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 1008 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.31.252 Rating: N/A |
Les disconnect the power to both the keypad and the ATEC for a few minutes and reconnect - HTH | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 470 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
I will try that Niles. thanks | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 471 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Would disconnecting the batteries have the same effect?? I assume you are looking to reset any faults in the computer. | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1388 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.190.159 Rating: N/A |
With a ATEC 11 or 111 not going to do any good they have a clock and backup battery in the ECU | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 1009 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.31.252 Rating: N/A |
Les, the first thing I try with anything that has any electronic circuitry is a cold start - It works almost all the time - FWIW P.S. - Had to cold start the laptop when it locked up while making this post LOL | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 474 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Well the mystery is solved! It is the shift pad that is the problem. Wajax here in Edmonton was willing to loan me the shift pad off their dyno and it works on my coach. Problem is that the replacement for it is over $2500. Does anyone know of anywhere that I might find a good used one? Thanks again to everyone for the input Les | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 620 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Les For that amount, I might find you a complete bus with B500 as a spare. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2270 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.91.147.27 Rating: N/A |
Transit donor bus? Is the shift pad the same part for a B400? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 475 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
I don't know if the pad would be the same. From what I hear and from the other pad that I have seen there is a lot of different ones. I have the Allison part number 29507949 for the pad. I was hoping to find a good used one or get this one rebuilt if possible. I still have the old MC5 in the yard so have no room for any more coaches unless I could store it out at Joe Padburgs place,,, indefinitely.... What do you say Suzanne? | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 646 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Les I talked to Ron the busnut and he doesn't have a pad with that number but he gave me a phone number of a guy that is known as Mr Allison. If he doesn't have one he can rebuild yours. Talk nice to him as Ron says he can be contancerous at times. His name and number is: Ted Keating 267-716-7332 You might also try Nimco in NJ. Good luck. Bill | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 476 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Thank you very much Bill You are right he is abrupt but it does sound like he can help me out at a better price than I expected. I have a few other local leads on shift pads that might pan out but if they don't I likely will get it from him. Les | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 647 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Les Keep us posted. I was really surprised when I did a search online for the shifter pad and it came up at $1900. I had no idea they were worth that much. I had better keep my spare in a safe place. (different one then yours - V731 tranny) Bill | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 477 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
At $1900 I think you get off light. This one is about $2500 how do you spell OUCH!!!!! At least now I have some options and I know for sure what the problem is | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 1031 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 72.211.145.15 Rating: N/A |
Would that be "Ouiche'" in Montreal ? | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 649 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Les Check you email for shifter pad. Bill | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1401 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.180.173 Rating: N/A |
There is a guy in MN that repairs the shift pads and rebuilds the ATEC for about 1/2 of a a new one good luck | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 478 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
I found the rebuilder guy and was going to go that way but the new one that Bill sent me the link to was just to good of a deal to pass on. It is ordered and on the way. Thank you everyone for the help and especially Bill for finding the one I ordered. check out this web page thetransportationpartsstore.com Les | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 650 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Les Thats what I like about this site. People helping other people. Glad it worked out for you Les. When I replaced my 8V71 with a 6V92TA a gentleman with a Prevost from Red Deer Alberta bought it. He drove all the way here with smoke pouring out the exhaust to have the 8V71 installed. We keep in touch since and he has been to Alaska with the engine and no problems. Bill | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 1403 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 184.10.180.173 Rating: N/A |
Pads are nice look good but here in the valley in the 120 degrees probably 150 inside the bus I was changing those every year on the schools buses. Changed all 16 over to the electronic shift towers not one failure in 4 years good luck | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 479 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Good info but I avoid extreme temps when possible. So far avoiding winter has not been possible but the day will come! Would some kind of cover over the shift pad help? | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 2274 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 174.89.174.10 Rating: N/A |
If that is the failure rate of a $2000 keypad in the south, you can be sure that one belonging to me will not have the sun allowed to shine on it. Every degree cooler you can keep that keypad, will certainly not harm it! The new coaches all have the keypad mounted on the left side in the open. Right beside the window, and with the tall windshield in front. Lots of solar warming potential there. happy coaching! buswarrior |