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Timkar (24.64.223.203)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 9:41 pm: | |
First of all, I have been sitting on the fence for a while (except when I was trying to get a 76 Eagle in to Canada), and I have picked up a lot of information from all the conversations and I would like to thank you all for that.
I have done a search of the archives, but what I am actually looking for is things to watch out for when looking at a potential unit. I am currently looking at a 1961 Flxible (tour coach from the factory), 1969 Eagle and a 1971 MCI.
Although you all have your own likes and dislikes of particular models, is there somewhere that I can get information on particular areas to pay attention to when checking out these units (rust areas, torsion bars, etc) Are there little "hidden things" to be checked?
I have almost got my other half convinced that this is the way to go, but I don't want to blow it now by getting something with a major problem that I didn't have the knowledge to check for.
Thanks for any and all input.......Tim |
John that newguy (199.232.240.187)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:03 pm: | |
The best thing you can do for yourself, is to insist taking the
unit to a bus garage for a complete inspection. The guys looking
at it in the shop see the buses day in and day out. They're not in
love with it and they won't be looking at it through dream-filled
eyes. Instead, they will be looking at every part of it from a strict
dollar and cents stance.
And when you hear them say "see that thing there....$3,896.50".....
You'll thank yourself for taking the sensible route and spending the
$65 or so an hour for an impartial assessment. |
John Rigbyj (24.174.238.253)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:53 pm: | |
If you purchase the wrong coach, you may spend your conversion money just on the mechanical and structure.
I was talking to the driver of Vince Vance,s 45 ft Eagle he got from a tour lease company. Looked fabulous, they paid $150,000.00. Then had to spend $20.000.00 on the underneath structure.
The guys hear on the board would have done the work themselves at a fraction, but would you attempt it if you had a bus that turned up with a large problem?
Yes have someone look at the buses for you.
John |
Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:19 pm: | |
Tim
Considering the 71 MCI, which I will assume is a -7? I have a -9. They're close enough to help you alot.
Spend some time on Gumpydog's site. Read every thing twice and expand all the pictures.
Plan on opening up everything, crawl inside or underneath with a flashlight and force yourself to "look" if not stare for 10 minutes each spot.
Ask questions.
Ask Questions
Did I say, Ask questions? Especially at either the East or West Coast bussin' gatherings. You'll get more knowledge in a weekend tehre than you will in a year on the BB, especially since that's visual and the BB's are more or less conceptual.
The MCI-7's had a penchant for cracking the frame up front at the diagonal window just behind the driver.
I looked in my wheel wells several times but missed a triangular 4" x 3" hole in each side that dumped tons of silt and moisture below the floors rusting all the mild steel away.
My -9 was always a California Bus, one owner charter with a good reputation (per RJ Long) I spent a few hours with the mechanic who cared for it the last 15 yrs. Still, when I got it apart, like with Gumpydog's, I was amazed at the hidden rust and stuff I overlooked
It's always a dice roll, but '81 coaches in as good condition as mine are quite rare. Considering the rebuilding work that Craig had to do, I now would gladly pay 2x what mine commanded.
I spent better than 10 years learning, looking, planning, gathering parts (repeat that list 10 times) and I'm to the place that I can pretty much execute the task at a consistent pace. I can deal with curve balls tossed my way. Sure, I denied myself alot of "fun" but I'm way better off than just jumping in to it and learning "on the go". As a take off from Thomas Edison's 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration quote, I'd say 90% preparation limits you to 10% the perspiration (you woulda sweated had you jumped!
You'll hear lots of thoughts and experiences on the BB from many people. For the most part, their posts are motivated towards saving you money and effort. Spend time reading and understanding, apply the facts expand the scope by your analysis, you'll be more efficient and your chances of completing the project will be greatly enhanced.
Onward and Upward
Marc Bourget |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.142.215)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:43 pm: | |
Following is a list of 20 questions I copied from this board some time ago. I apologize to the person that actually wrote them and posted them - I did not keep a record of who it was to give them credit. I hope this helps with some ideas.
Following is my list of 20 questions that were designed to help me
decide whether I wanted to invest in an airplane ticket and go look,
personally.
The MCI has a lot of stainless steel that is famous for not
corroding. However, there is considerable use made of other steel
that will corrode when penetrated by rainwater, saltwater, etc.
These corrosive waters do their damage when they penetrate protective
barriers such as rubber seals, paint, vinyl, etc. - anything designed
to protect.
New paint is by far the most obvious sign of a well-maintained bus,
but may put on for just a really big show.
New rubber seals around marker lights, windshields, and side windows
don't put on a really big show, but are essential for preventing
water from sneaking behind and between and silently doing its witchy,
rustcraft!
1. Some rain leaks in the windshield to some degree. At the bottom
of the center windshield divider, check the dash for evidence of
corrosion creeping under the vinyl. How many inches toward the
driver's side and passenger's side does the "puckering" creep? How
many inches from the front to the back edge of the dash? When the
front skin is removed, the results of this water seepage becomes
evident.
______________________________________________________________________
2. What is the present condition of the rubber seals around the left
and right windshields? UV damage causes the locking spline to shrink
in length - the 1/4" wide strip of rubber, pressed into a groove to
lock the seals and windshields into place. How many inches shorter
is it now? (IOW how many inches of gap is there at each of the four
corners)? How much silicon sealer has been added to avoid replacing
the seals?
______________________________________________________________________
3. The rubber seals around marker lights and side windows age and
start to leak in rain. The water corrodes internal structural braces
when it gets there. This cannot be seen externally until significant
damage is done internally. Evidence of penetration can be deduced by
looking for "puckered" paint around rivets way below the suspected
water entry point. Outright metal corrosion can sometimes be seen
where there are no rivets - it looks like painted-over welding
spatter. By the time you can see this actual physical corrosion, the
damage is done. You can only hope it aint as bad as you suspect.
______________________________________________________________________
4. Learn what these "puckers" look like - there are 2 drainage holes
by the fresh air intakes that belong there. Look around that area
for other "puckers" and things that look like painted over "welds"
or "spatters" - these aint natural. Then look for these unnatural
things elsewhere.
______________________________________________________________________
5. When the rubber seals around windows are regularly replaced, the
internal damage is minimized. When were these seals last replaced?
Just before today is not a good sign.
______________________________________________________________________
6. Actual holes of corrosion are exactly that - evidence of serious
internal damage due to water and rust. How many spots like this show?
______________________________________________________________________
7. Examine the rubber seals around the windows down at the bottom of
the "post" between any two windows. 2 weep/drain holes belong there -
one on each side of the dividing post. Any other signs of
imperfection are aging and evidence of corrosion. When were the
seals last replaced? Just before going up for sale? That's the same
thing as rebuilding an engine in the shop just before resale - or a
quick cosmetic paint job. These are "tricks of the trade" performed
in order to give a false impression of "well-maintained."
______________________________________________________________________
8. Another place to look for the results of prolonged water exposure
is found under the floor. Sit in each bay on the its floor, looking
outward, toward the upraised door. In the center area, above you,
you can see a floor support that goes from the chair anchor rail,
that is a trapezoidal beam over your head, toward the outside wall.
This "joist" attaches to the outside panel. If it is rusted through
and is now detached, I believe there is not a serious structural
defect, but what you have is another indicator of the possible amount
of water damage, between the wall panels and the steel tubing above
and inside. How many of the bays show rusted detachments?
______________________________________________________________________
9. A serious sign of structural deterioration is the plating of the
air beams due to air leaks. Look between the tag and drive axles and
check for beam plating. Are any there? How long does the coach stay
aired up?
_____________________________________________________________________
10. Leaky radiators and road spray can do damage on the radiator
supports at the back bulkhead. How do they look? Besides hidden
water damage, producing structural damage and non-structural, there
are other considerations when attempting to measure the value of a
prospective bus purchase:
______________________________________________________________________
11. What is the owner's Preventive Maintenance philosophy?
Scheduled? Or, "If it ain't broke don't fix it?
______________________________________________________________________
12. What kind of steering? Boost? Integral? Loose/tight?
______________________________________________________________________
13. Bay doors - # dings? # dents? Banged skirt rails at the bottom
edge? SS welding of new skirt rails? Do all bay doors open right?
______________________________________________________________________
14. Door - # dings? # dents? signs of forced entry?
______________________________________________________________________
15. Tire condition? Rubber decoration bent or loose?
______________________________________________________________________
16. Current hubometer mileage?
______________________________________________________________________
17. Rear engine doors open easy? Misalligned? Oil coated/oily dusty?
______________________________________________________________________
18. Start engine cold (what was air pressure before starting?) - color
smoke? Smokes how long?
______________________________________________________________________
19. Inside of bays - original paint? Rust in front of air tank
access? Evidence of repair?
______________________________________________________________________
20. Signs of toilet water leakage? Spongey floor in front of toilet
room? |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.142.215)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 11:46 pm: | |
These days I collect original author information. Back when I put this in the database I wasn't doing that yet, so thanks again to the original author! You know who you are!
What to look for when purchasing
What is the exact year and model #?
What is the engine model? Was it original equipment or upgraded later?
What is the transmission model?
Have the engine and transmission been rebuilt? By who?
Is there a warranty on the rebuild? Is it transferrable to the buyer?
How many miles on the engine and transmission?
Do you have a history of who owned the bus and where it was operated?
Is there a verifiable maintenance record with receipts or invoices?
Is the coach currently in service (i.e., running routes or tours)?
Does the engine run without missing, leaking, or smoking?
How much oil does it use?
What kind of fuel mileage does it get?
Does it start without problems?
Are there any known problems with the running gear?
Does it have a Jake's brake?
Does it have integral power steering? Original equipment or upgraded later?
Loose or tight?
Do they do scheduled maintenance? How often?
Drive routes?
RUST INSPECTION
===============
Check all rubber seals around marker lights, windshields, side windows.
How new is the rubber?
Check bottom of windshield divider along the dash. Any corrosion under the
vinyl? Any puckering? How much (inches each direction)?
Windshield seals -- condition, shrinkage, caulking?
Below marker lights and side windows. Rivets show puckering? Other signs
of corrosion ("painted over welding spatter")?
When were rubber seals last replaced?
Rubber seals around windows at bottom of post between windows.
Sit in each bay, looking outward toward upraised door. Examine beams for
rust. Signs of repair or painting.
Look at air beams between tag and drive axles. Any plating/brazing?
How long does it stay aired up?
Radiator supports in back bulkhead?
Are the sides straight?
Any rust on the frame?
Any rust in spare tire compartment?
Any rust in bays?
Any rust in radiator area?
Any rust in engine compartment?
Any rust in wheel wells?
Any rust creeping under side windows?
Any rust creeping under marker lights?
Any known leaks?
Do all bay doors open, close, and lock?
Are bay doors banged, dented, or dinged?
Rear engine door open?
Are tires included? Brand, age, and tread depth?
Air pressure before starting? At idle?
Color smoke when starting cold? How long? |
TWO DOGS (63.185.72.139)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 9:05 am: | |
Isn't it a shame there isn't an experienced person,with knollege of buses,that would be available to inspect prospects,500.00 a day,plus expences...sure would save alot of headaches for people that want to get into bussing,but, are not familiar with them |
Stan (68.150.152.113)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 10:05 am: | |
Two Dogs: Those people do exist. A friend of mine sold an Eagle over the phone on condition it passed inspection. An inspector flew in, did his thing, wrote a report and left. The buyer came a few days later with his money to pick up the bus. Sorry, I don't know the name of the inspector. Maybe a web search would find one. |
John that newguy (199.232.240.187)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
I guess I posted my observation before, but I suppose it's worth
saying again?
The original owner of any bus bought it to make money. When it
finally begins to fail it's intended purpose, the original owner
sells it and the buyer inherits all the problems that had caused the
original owner to sell the bus.
Multiply that scenario by as many times as it's been owned, and what
you'll be buying is one helluva bunch of headaches.
If you want a real migraine, buy one that's been owned by a church,
private group, or individual. That "cheap bus" will cost more than a
new one, if your plans are to fix it to be "like new". Well, any
used bus will, if you decide to "make it like new".
If you can do -all- the work yourself, you can save some serious
money. Unfortunately, most of us cannot do the work ourselves, due
to the lack of the necessary garage facilities, tools, or expertise
that is gained only through experience. A bus weighs typically,
around 11 tons empty. A pit, lift or other means to work under the
vehicle is needed. Hoists, shackles and power winches are needed to
contain, support and maneuver heavy parts.
You are not working on a car or RV, you're working on a piece of
heavy equipment. A normal air gun won't budge a lug nut, a normal 3/8
ratchet is near useless for the heavy side of things. The wheels weigh
more than you can possibly lift alone to put back onto the axle. And
a simple chore of adjusting the brakes requires lifting and blocking
the bus in a manner that will allow you safe access under what is
normally 11 tons and sitting 6" off the ground without air in it's bags.
(Eagle owners can be happy with torsion bars)
It's big and you should expect repairs to cost big.
If you can't do the mechanical work yourself, seek the help of
a heavy equipment mechanic that's looking for part-time work.
There's a lot of guys willing to work for a few extra weekend
bucks. They're good at what they do, but your repairs will be
taking the back seat to scheduling.
That's my observation, in the relatively short time I've been into
this "dream". If you don't set your expectations too high, you'll
do OK. You're into a used commercial vehicle that's seen much
better days. It's likely on it's last lap around the course of it's
life, so consider yourself lucky if it makes it to the finish line
of your life with it. |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.165.231)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:36 am: | |
Stan & TwoDogs - Our own Jim in Victoria does just that. See his site here. |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks) (66.167.165.231)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 11:44 am: | |
JtNG, I like the way you penned your observations - some of those especially relevant to folks like you and I, doing our work in rented 'stalls'. However, the second half of your last sentence is problematic.
I've seen many, many, many instances of folks saying that they expect their coach to be passed to their grandchildren because it would certainly outlive them.
And although there are surely some out there, I don't think I've *ever* seen a situation where the owner called the junkyard and had the coach hauled off for scrap. |
BrianMCI96A3 (69.34.170.233)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 4:07 pm: | |
I'm with Chuck on that... with the way most modern coaches are built, if the running gear is properly maintained, there is no doubt in my mind that a conversion can last indefinitely.
Sure, eventually there will be systems failures and some will be expensive, but overall I think most "finished" conversions will outlast their owners.
Brian |
John that newguy (199.232.240.187)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 4:37 pm: | |
Chuck, Brian...
Yeah, I was getting a lil' over-dramatic, wasn't I.
Let's face it, the body of that all aluminum or stainless steel bus
will certainly outlast any flesh. And the cost of repairing the
damned thing may never cost as much as as any repair to the human
body! But will you always desire to make such repairs to "a bus",
later in life? Poor health or poor finances can change priorities.
I'd still wager that "the bus" will be sitting in need of repair,
long before it's (average) owner expires. How many kids keep
"the bus", when it's left to them?
My personal approach, is to buy it cheap, convert it cheaper and
use it 'till it falls apart aside the road..... rent a car and go buy another.
My son's aware of the pitfalls of owning a money-pit and would
sell it as soon as they tie the tag on my toe.
And I'd congratulate him for his clear thinking, if I could.
(har har... wanna' beer?) |
TWO DOGS (63.185.80.152)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
MAINTINANCE.............yep...the longer it's away from the fleet...the worse things get...look for wires hanging...wires not connected,rust under windows,strange wear on tires,no church buses,they think ,instead of maintenace,they just pray about it.. |
J.L.Vickers (209.169.106.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 01, 2004 - 6:13 pm: | |
Let me step in the with this thought.
What had been posted above is very true.
I bought a PD-4104 from a church for a very low cheap price for a PD-4104's at the time.
With the idea it's a cheap bus I can afford to put money into it.(Wrong idea on my part)
After I got that poor old PD-4104 home it was in need of a lot of major maintenance.
Every thing was wrong with it that could be wrong this church used their prayer book instead of a check book and a mechanic and his tool box.
I could have bought a nice later model GMC Coach for what I put into that PD-4104 making it road worthy.
Like the old saying goes you get what you pay for.
A old bus friend of mine has a favorite saying you buy a bus for a low price and you get a low class worn out high maintenance bus.
I now own a P8M4905A that was in good shape. Yes I looked a lot closer this time before money changed hands.
I also had help from some good bus people that knew their GMC Coaches a old GMC bus driver and 2 mechanics that said it was a good coach it's worth the money go for it.
And yes This bus was never owned by a church.
So remember a worn out bus is a 70 mph hole that goes down the road and runs on $50.00 bills.
Folks it makes no difference who made the bus when the are worn out.Just walk on by.
Look for something better.
J.L.Vickers |
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