| Author | Message | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Rating: N/A |
Well I'm almost ready to install my new 8v71t and roadranger and started looking for the tower and cable when I remembered I had some information from a old post, so I looked it up and found this: Yup, it sounds good. . . BUT: You've got an MC-7 - there isn't enough room between the powertrain cradle's frame rails for the RoadRanger to fit - it's too wide. If it was an Eagle or a Prevost, you'd be OK, but not the MCI. Thanks RJ for the information. Now I think I need a HT-740 or 745CR core and if anyone has a dolly I can use that would help. | ||
| TWO DOGS Rating: N/A |
I still have that 12 speed...what is the widest that will fit...it's .80 overdrive | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Rating: N/A |
I think I want to go with the auto, less work and life is easy. | ||
| David & Lorna Schinske (Davidschinske)
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But an auto sucks up fuel like mad. We still want a Roadranger in our Eagle but then we're a bit odd anyway. Lorna | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
and you WILL NOT believe the COST to keep automatics going....worst thing you can do to an automatic is park it...& 'motorhomes' are parked 90% of the time....mho | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Hmmm...how to answer...how to answer... I'm a manual guy for almost everything, I've converted several cars from auto to manual, greatly prefer a manual in a car. I a coach I prefer a auto every time. Now, I don't know any unreasonable "cost to keep aotomatics going" but that $4K I just spent a few months ago was due to my coach being parked for a year. the PTO Gasket dried, cracked, blew out the side of the gasket and that was all she wrote. Virtually all big autos that I know get lots of miles and require very little cost. However, hell hath no fury like an automatic scorned. Gary | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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like I said...sitting does HARM to autos | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
yeah, even WE agree on this. bound to happen once in a while. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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never thought we would ever agree on anything...I can let a standard sit a year....even 10 years...& there just isn't anything wrong with it...plus...the cost to changeover I think averages about 5000.00 | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Damn, that's two in a row, cut it out. $5K is on the money, and here's why: Sure you can get an auto for way less, but it's an unknown quantity (Unless you happen to know of one and it's history then $1,500 is the going rate). A manual, you can open and inspect. You can get MT's for ~$4K, HT's for ~$5K Here's where we disagree: I'll spend the $5K Gary | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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and....you will do it again...in a few years | ||
| Don/TX
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Hey Gary, Two Dogs will get an automatic if he gets a chance, just look at him drooling all over that MCI in the Ebay section below, then notice that IT HAS AN ALLISON 740 in it!!! | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
it's a nice bus....good thing I'm not rich...everybody would be saying,"WHY SO MANY BUSES"........it's kinda like prunes ....is 3 enough ....4 too many ??? | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
also....it's kinda like a woman....if everything else is just right...one eye in the middle of her forehead can be kinda 'overlooked' | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
The 740 HD with the locked up converter in 3rd and 4th has been used in thousands of busses and is almost idiot proof. Many have been retrofitted to old busses and run for many years without problems. A good or rebuilt 740 should last you a lifetime in motorhome service (even if it sits part time). If you are in a coastal area all gear boxes, including the differential, have to be turned occasionally to prevent rusting of the gears above the oil line. This is not a problem in west Texas where all the seals are as dry as the desert sand. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
who lives in west Texas | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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I'm glad Two Dogs is such a great authority on the longevity of the Allison HT-740 and HT-754 automatics. It must be because of his expertise that for the last 20 years, 99.9% of US coach production has included one of these two transmissions. He must know something all these commercial operators don't. . . And now, with the proliferation of the four-stroke motors, the B500s have become the new standard, altho the Eaton Autoshift is becoming a new player, too. Sorry to sound so harsh, 2D, but it get's really frustrating when someone pontificates about something w/o the industry knowledge to back it up. You spent your career in the trucking industry, where manual gearboxes still rule, and rightfully so. The bus industry has long since moved to automatics, for a number of reasons, and you can be sure if their operating costs were much higher than manuals, operators wouldn't be using them. Time for a nap, maybe I'll wake up in a better mood. . .  RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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hope so.....................those buses don't sit around like a motorhome | ||
| Don/TX
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Gosh RJ, you got me started too now. I just bristle when the stick guys try to tell us that there is a substantial fuel mileage loss when going automatic (sour grapes mostly I think). Nobody seems to be able to explain how a locked up Allison can use more fuel than a four speed. I drove mine both ways, and got BETTER fuel mileage with the Allison than I did with the Spicer, mostly because the gearing was more suited to highway use. A few GM people have changed to the lower geared 730, and yep, at the same miles per hour their rpm goes way up and their fuel mileage suffers. I also notice there is no great amount of threads of bus people wanting to change back from automatic to standard out there. Don't count out the bigh boys either, look around at the truck stops, you would be amazed at how many Class 8 trucks are being bought with automatics. Hmmm. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
I'll take the auto--I can only guess that the stick-or-die boys are overcompensating... Gary | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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..............  | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
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Yups....'do suppose it depends upon your particular preference. One of the main reasons I purchased my '74 Crown 10-wheeler 3 years ago now was... ...the fact it had the infamous RTO-910 close ratio, non synkro, heavy duty 10-speed Roadranger MANUAL tranny. The thing is superb. Once up to speed, you rarely need to shift up or down. Hills are a breeze. Very easy to keep the Big Cam Cummins at ANY RPM you wish. Very close gears. At 55 mph, I actually have the choice of 8th, 9th or 10th gear, depending upon the load, wind, or particular road conditions. But where the RTO-910 really shines is starting up from zero up one of those endless 6% Western grades. No problemo. Kinda like a manual cable hoist. Each knotch or gear gets you a little bit more. Before you know it, you are up to road speed. Shifts more like a dirt bike than a heavy duty truck tranny. Two finger, about two inches of travel and about 5 pounds of pressure. Snick...snick...snick. With or without the clutch, although I do use mine. However...it does require some time and learning. But then...even the likes of me figured out how to do it. Sooosss cool. Anyway, I am babbling, as per usuall. ROADRANGERS FOREVER!! | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Well, a good Roadranger is definitely the exception, and the BEST way to go. I just couldn't fit one into a V Drive 4905, | ||
| BrianMCI Rating: N/A |
About the only RoadRanger I'd want in my coach is the one I saw today... Fully auto shift & electronically controlled. I couldn't believe it... Now that's what I call an AUTOMATIC Brian | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
"He must know something all these commercial operators don't." Yes--unlike the fly-by-nites they hire, he knows how to drive. "Don't count out the bigh boys either, look around at the truck stops, you would be amazed at how many Class 8 trucks are being bought with automatics. Hmmm." See above. For the record, I know NOBODY who prefers a slushpump over a Road Ranger in a class 8. I personally drive 3 manual trannies--2 Spicers & a Clark--that have run anywhere from 20 to 32 years without being rebuilt. Show me a slushpump that'll go that long. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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YEAH STANDARD TRANS......but....IF we keep this up...the slushpump guys won't post here & whine when they have to pay 4 to 5 thousand each time | ||
| DonGeneda@
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For clarification, I did not say that owner/operators preferred them, only that many are being so equipped. I have only met one owner/operator who bought a new truck with an automatic, and that was largely because his wife had a CDL and couldn't shift worth a darn. Almost all of the ones you find are owned by some fleet owner, and were bought that way due to easier hiring of drivers, and they tell me they have less maintenance because the know-nothing hired drivers tore up shifter type trannies and clutches so bad. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
I met one also, the guy was in his 70's (Or more) and ordered his latest truck with some kinda automatic. He told me what it was, but I didn't recognize the name--tried to look suitably impressed anyway. He said his knees were bad (or something like that) and the kind of hauling he did worked well with an auto. Right tool for the right job. Gary | ||
| Gary Carter Rating: N/A |
Many truck lines are going to the fuller/eaton auto-shifters. This is really a computer shifted 6-18 speed. Not many allisons. The latest version have eliminated the go/stop clutch. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Fuller....Fuller..... Ya know, I think that's what the ol' boy said. I do believe he said 18-speeds Gary | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
Not amazingly, the medium/heavy duty truck industry does adapt quickly and well to perceived or actual owner or driver needs. Remember years ago when even that muldane 2-ton delivery truck had the infamous 5 and 2 arrangement? And the sound of the 2 speed rear end destroying itself due to the inattention or unskill of a casual delivery driver? Wonder how many otherwise viable/successful small companies went belly up thru no real fault of their own due... ...to horribly $expensive$ truck operating costs--due to a lousy high operator skill level required drive train? Now buyers have a choice. Either a full Allision new world type OR a automatic clutch auto shifting electronically controlled manual. Wow...we have come a long way. Anyway, since I am kinda weird (kinda?) I still prefere to row thru my own gears. Thanks. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Why do you suppose Caterpillar put those crappy automatic transmissions in almost all of their heavy equipment (including 200 ton trucks) for the last 30 years? Probably the most severe service possible is in mine haul trucks and they are all automatics. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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Obviously Stan they just don't know what they're doing. gary | ||
| Don/TX
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Caterpillar or the heavy haulers, or both? | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
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I thought those heavy ore trucks were hydrolic drive ...like my bobcat...seems like some were electric too | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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I don't really know for sure, I believe they are a disc-type automatic, not a hydrostatic like your Bobcat. All kidding aside, I don't think they are like either an allison or a hydrostatic, but a breed of their own. Jim? you out there? He knows the right answer. Gary | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
the huge pit trucks that cat makes all have automatic powershift transmissions in them.... evolved about 10 generations from the guy that used to work for/design for john deere.... they'll hold the power output that a 3516 cat makes. 3000hp plus.. TD is right about some of the trucks being electric "lectrahaul" 250 ton pit trucks..... an EMD diesel engine pulling a 2000 kw generator...they used electric traction motors...1 inside each wheel..inside the planetary..... another oldie but goodie was developed back in the '50's that were electric were all the Letourneau stuff...if you ever get a chance to look at the frac/pump trucks like dowell and schlumberger uses, take a look at the trannys... they're allisons...9000 series stuff... 7 forward speeds with reverse blocked off.... and the engines are 3000 hp plus... 3516 cats, 4000 series mtu's and 16v149 dd... lotsa power.......arrrrrrrrr | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"Nobody seems to be able to explain how a locked up Allison can use more fuel than a four speed" Simply disconect/bypass the extra coolers every auto tranny must have. The heat that causes it to melt down comes from the fuel used (lossed) in spinning gears and pumping oil . Most GM owners that have switched report going from 9 to 10 mpg down to 6 or 7. With $2.00 diesel and even heating oil, the difference in 10,000 miles of camping could pay for a new stick tranny & clutch ! Do it your way, FAST FRED | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
An automatic transmission use oils pressure to keep the clutches locked up in the transmission and generates about the same amount of heat as a standard gear box. It takes less horsepower to turn gears in ATF than in heavier gear oil. Having said that, if you allow the bus to run in a gear where the torque converter is unlocked the heat builds rapidly and the fuel consumption will skyrocket. ATEC transmissions may have solved the problem but the older style with a modulator to initiate the shift make very poor choices. Like with a standard the driver needs to make intelligent decisions and shift it by hand if it doesn't do it automatically. Personnaly, I found that the Allison used less fuel in the mountains (using the above procedure) because its rapid shift (without loss of momentum) would climb one gear higher than with a stick shift. I got very close to the same fuel mileage with a 40' MC-7 with auto as a 35' MC-5 with stick. | ||
| Don/TX
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Sure Fred, and we all know that those GM people used a V730, which changes the gearing from GM standard to something about like driving in third all the time, higher rpm all day uses more fuel. (not to mention that with peak torque obtained at about1100 rpm on those buses like yours, higher rpm means loss of torque also) Duh! | ||
| Don/TX
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The big pit trucks at the gold mine in Elko NV use an interesting combination. They use their big diesels to cruise the bottom of the pit and get loaded. When they start up the grade to the top, their overhead contactor connects to an electric source (just like the electric trolley cars) and gives them the extra umph to make the grade thru electricity. Wonder if we could get highways designed that way for buses when pulling hills? Sure would take a lot of wire, huh. |