| Author | Message | ||
| setzer
Rating: N/A |
I have a 1964 Eagle 01 and have changed the wheels and tires from 1100x20 to 24.50. Since then I have had difficulty whith the steering wandering all over the road. I have had the front end alignment checked. Why would this effect this and can anything be done to correct this without changing tire size and wheels back? Thanks Robert | ||
| Earl-8-Ky Rating: N/A |
My MC8 wandered all over the road when I bought it. It was so bad I called it my wander Lodge. I called Steer Safe in Deming,NM. They put their steer safe unit on for me Drivers like it should now. A little over 300$ at the time. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
From my understending, a steersafe is a poor subsititue for a properly functioning front suspension. Gary | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Kinda' sounds like a castor adjustment should have been made to compensate for the different front tire height? | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Maybe, not sure. Front-end guy needs to answer. Some Wanderlodge users have installed a steersafe when they had a problem, rather than fix the problem. Some more experienced owners have fixed the frontend problems and removed the steersafe. my steering works fine, and I don't like the idea of a spring-loaded centering device. Gary | ||
| Lin Rating: N/A |
I had a Steersafe on my old motorhome. It did help reduce wind buffeting even though the front end was in good condition. The other value of the Steersafe is to improve control in the event of a blowout. I have a different steering stabilizer on the bus. It is similar to the Safe-t-plus. I believe it helps in steering stability, but again, it is blowout protection that interested me more. I would make sure the front end is good and properly aligned first though. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I had a Steer-safe unit on the Winnegarbage. When I noticed one front tire worn bad after a long trip, I found that one of the steer-safe springs had broke during the trip. I didn't notice any problem with the steering, and my usual pre-trip walk-around didn't include checking for broken steer-safe springs... I have that same unit (with new spring(s)) in a box, trying to decide to add them or not to the MC9. But ya'know... Gary's right.. The things can be more of a problem than they're worth. They have a tendency to disguise a problem (like loose steering), when the problem would be best made known. And when they do go sour, you've wasted a tire. Maybe I'll have 'em bronzed.. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
"But ya'know... Gary's right..." Holy smokes, someone pinch me. Seriously, I'm only passing on what others have said, I wouldn't recognize a steersafe if one flew out of my underwear. Gary | ||
| MCI Larry (Eurof3)
Rating: N/A |
A bunch of thoughts for you Most of the time, wheel size will not effect front end alignment angles. Because most of the time 24.5 tires are the same diameter as 22.5 some 20 inch tires are close to the same diameter size not having much effect on alignment. BUT the offset of the wheel can change things alignment wise. Not camber but caster wise, changing inline stability. Excessive tow out will cause wander and is what we find from wander complaints. Adding Negative caster will cause inline stability and some times help wandering. Just like a shopping cart wheel flips around and follows because of negative caster. But can cause the scrub radius to increase in turns. Best left at factory spec. Positive caster will cause wander and the feeling of jumping around too. With less tire side wall going from a 20 to 24.5 wheel it should have stiffened up your ride. Not gotten softer and more sway. Make sure the tires are full of air. 110 psi or the max the tire calls for. My guess is your alignment check was done with the old wheels and not correct for the new 24.5`s And your offset is now different. OR its towed out and to check tow yourself. With the tires pointed as straight forward as possible. Use a small lazer level and make a horizontal line on the inside of both front tires. Mark each tire at the same height off the ground about 8 to 12 inches off the ground if you have clearance. I pick a nice ridge that goes all the way around a tire to measure the distance the front tires are apart and then measure at the same ridge the distance the rear of the front tires are apart. The difference in distance from front inside edge of the front tires and the back inside edge of the front tires is know as tow in or tow out. Be sure to push out on the front side of the tires to remove play in tie rods and steering linkage before taking a tow measurement. This may take a pry bar or even a load lock bar to hold the play out. I Bet its TOWED OUT or you have changed the OFFSET of the wheel and tire and need to be aligned with the new weeels and tires that are now on it. Hope this helps. Larry | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Larry - How do you know that "110 psi or the max the tire calls for" is the correct tire pressure for Robert's coach? Where did you come up with that recommendation? Curious. . . | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
You're cornfutilatizing me, Larry... But with these forum things, It's difficult to know who someone's trying to correct... You said: "......Most of the time, wheel size will not effect front end alignment angles....... .....My guess is your alignment check was done with the old wheels and not correct for the new 24.5`s ....... .......the offset of the wheel can change things alignment wise. Not camber but caster wise, changing inline stability......." I attempted to be more generic: "sounds like a castor adjustment should have been made to compensate for the different front tire height". Not only does tire/wheel size play a big role with alignment, but so does air bag leveling, stabilizer bar bushing wear, chassis loading, and air drag (raising the roof can raise hell). Tire size generally will not interfere with camber as much as it will castor. But, if assuming the tire's very close in size, the tire's thread type, rating and pressure will usually cause more change in stability of handling, than in changing alignment characteristics. All aside, it sounds like it's simply time for a wheel alignment, done in the most dynamic manner possible, or a bigger fund for tire replacement. | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
From racing experience I would have thought toe in/out would correct the wandering, not so much the caster! Caster adjustment is when the spindle is angled forward or backward allowing the vehicle to track either more on the TOE of the tire or more on the HEEL of the tire. More on the TOE would aloow for MORE and quicker steering whereas more on the HEEL would slow it down and take some away. Toe in/out would help control the wander from the above adjustments! If you can imagine a basketball player up on his toes, he is able to pivot from side to side easier (more and quicker steering) whereas if he is back on his heels, (slower and less) he can't! Try it and see! The same applies for the front end! Ace | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Wow. Another one of these threads? Although much has been witten on this subject and is readily available on the web, I'll just post this one link: http://hostingprod.com/@aa1car.com/library/steerpul.htm Check the section regarding "wander". ----------------------------- STEERING WANDER The vehicle lacks directional stability and wanders or drifts from side to side. Possible causes include: • Loose or worn steering components. Inspect the tie rod ends, inner tie rod sockets on rack & pinion steering units, and the idler arm and center link on parallelogram steering. Check the steering column couplings. Also check for loose or broken rack mounts. Check the amount of play in the steering rack or steering gear. Lateral play at the edge of the steering wheel should usually be less than 1/4 inch (always refer to manufacturer specifications). Replace worn parts and/or adjust rack yoke or adjustment screw on steering box to reduce play. • Loose or improperly adjusted wheel bearings. Check and adjust wheel bearings to specifications. • Insufficient caster. This may be due to increased ride height at the rear of the vehicle (raising the rear end with air shocks or air springs) or lowered ride height at the front of the vehicle (weak springs or shorter than stock springs). Increase caster and/or reset to specifications. • Extremely low tire pressure. Inflate to recommended pressure. • Extreme toe misalignment. Check the steering linkage and adjust or repair as needed. --------------------------------------------------------- | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Ace- It's easily noticeable on a shopping cart (or any vehicle with "castor" steering), that direction is most easily changed when castor wheels follow, not lead, the direction of travel. Therefore, having enough castor will allow the vehicle to tote right along in the direction the rear wheels push it into. Too little castor will cause them to fight the direction of the rear push, and cause them to attempt to lead instead. On a car/bus/truck..... If you let go of a steering wheel of a vehicle with too little castor, it will wander off in any direction the road influences it. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I never got rid of all the wander on my Eagle 10, and I replaced everything and had it aligned several times. It got better, but never completely all gone. One of the important things on an Eagle is the ride height. The torsion bars need to be adjusted to maintain the proper height. As I recall, it is 14 inches from the lower level of the siding to the ground. Alignment shops are generally not aware of this requirement. At least I never met one that did. Richard | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
JTNG-- This is also why you NEVER backup with a car on the towbar, the front end tries to lead instead of follow and tears stuff up. Gary | ||
| Bob Oakman (Bobsbus)
Rating: N/A |
To keep from starting a new thread on a similar topic, may I chime in with a related question? ... and forgive me for my ignorance on the subject. In "John-that-new-guy's" post, I noticed this; "and/or adjust rack yoke or adjustment screw on steering box to reduce play." My Eagle tracks along nicely, but there is a whole lot of play in the steering. There doesn't appear to be any play in the associated steering linkage. It all seems to be the steering box. What is this "adjustment screw"? Do I have one on my Eagle-5? (power steering) Thanks. | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
Another one of those threads huh? JTN, your findings are exactly what I was saying! Of course more caster puts the tire on the HEEL of the tread resulting in slower reaction of the wheels and less steering which gives the feeling of less wander! Our car has ZERO degree caster in LF and 3 degree caster in RF. You also go on to say that "Extreme toe misalignment" will cause wander! Isn't that also what I said? It may be that our race car has IRS (Independent Rear Suspension) where as I can also adjust toe & camber in the rear! Can't adjust caster in the rear, only what we call "rear steer" where one rear wheel is in front of the other, leading into the turn! Oval racing, not road course! Ace | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Ace- Yup. Wow... agreement! Hey, you're not so bad after all, Ace... Bob- It was in the post, but it was simply copied from the web site. I'm not familiar with the steering box (or much else; where am I), but I can remember almost all the Eagles I drove back in the 60's had at least about a 1/4 wheel play (hell, my MC9 has that much). You'll find that as you get older and your hands begin to shake; your memory goes sour, and you find yourself frequently changing your mind about changing lanes..... the sloppy wheel will become more of a benefit than a hindrance. Happy Thanksgiving! | ||
| Bob Oakman (Bobsbus)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks John. It sounds like a bit of play in the steering is a common Eagle thing. That's nice to know. It doesn't really bother me much anyway. I was just concerned that something might be amiss. In fact the wheels do respond a little within that 1/4 turn slop area. It's kinda' like having two gear ratios on the steering box. Within that slop space the wheels turn ever so slightly, just enough to compensate for the wind without major directional change.  Beyond that "buffer zone" if you will, it's full-on commitment to the turn. | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh)
Rating: N/A |
Guys-- DOT safety regs call for about 2" of play on the rim of the wheel. NOT 1/4 turn. You won't believe how much nicer it is to drive a bus that steers like a regular car compared to what you have now. If you are putting many miles on the bus, get it fixed. Then you can relax with two fingers on the wheel. With good steering, there is absolutely no need for a steer-safe or other device, even with a blowout. Jim | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Rather than run over to the storage facility and dig out the manual, I'm going to trust that some school bus regulations will suffice? -------------------------------------------------------
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/SCHOOL_BUS_STEERING_AND_SUSPENSION_36380_7.pdf -----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.statepatrol.ohio.gov/operationalunits/lcs/2004schoolbusinsp.pdf ----------------------------------------------------------- I think the steering wheel in the MCI and Eagle should equate to a bit more than a 2" "legal" allowance in play. Comments? | ||
| Bob Oakman (Bobsbus)
Rating: N/A |
Good info. Thanks. I don't wanna' get red-tagged. Just one question. Is there an adjustment on my steering box to take up some play, or do I need to buy a new one? She has been driven 750,000 miles in her life, but not all of those miles on the upgraded steering system. Since I am trying to restore every inch of the old girl to like-new, I don't consider very many new parts an extravagancy. Thankfully, her former owners, the Arizona Prison System, did regular maintenance and parts replacement, so the running gear is in great shape and the engine and tranny is like new. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I know nothing about bus steering gear boxes. I know that the older cars and trucks had an adjustment to compensate for wear. If it was tightened too much, you might result in not being able to turn the wheel past center, or having it jam. The Chevy P-30 chassis has what is sometimes referred to as a bell crank: http://www.hendersonslineup.com/crank.htm When it needs adjusting, a tremendous amount of play can be noticed in the wheel, along with steering wander. I don't know what the Eagle has, or what can be safely adjusted. Worm gears and balls should be available, Bob. I'm sure one of the Eagle guys can steer you to the right place. (did I type that?) I don't care for too much play in the wheel and like Jim says, driving can be 1,000 times more enjoyable if you're not fighting it all the time. I guess you'll have to decide if the discomfort of driving that way outweighs the discomfort of trying to make the repair or replacement. I would ask those that have "perfect" Eagle steering systems, just how much play they have. If you find that the majority experience 3-4" of play, then it may be better to relax and not fight the normal, inherent play in the wheel. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
it's worth mentioning that improper tire inflation makes my bus wander like an old farm truck. Make sure your tires are at the proper pressure before spending any dough. I'm sure you already covered this, but I once thought I need frontend work until I checked my tire pressure, my driver's side was 15# low. Gary | ||
| Hugh Bavaro (Hbavaro)
Rating: N/A |
My 1953 GMC bus sways as well, even after rebuilding the power steering box and most of the front end bushings, tie rods, steering linkage, rubber mounts, etc. Prior to these replacements, I figure the play was at least 10 degrees. Now it's about 5 degrees. Someone mentioned a Sheppard Power Steering box. I'll definitely check out the tire pressures (all less than 5,000 miles), but absent this, any comments. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Hugh - Do you know what the correct tire pressure is for your coach, or are you just putting in what someone told you to do? If so, where did they come up with that PSI? There is a proper way to determine the correct pressure - what's right for someone else's '04 may not be right for yours. . . | ||
| Bob Oakman (Bobsbus)
Rating: N/A |
"There is a proper way to determine the correct pressure - what's right for someone else's '04 may not be right for yours. . ." Oh yeah? That makes me wonder about mine. I just read the side of the new tires and put the suggested pressure in. Am I missing it? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Yep, Bob, you're missing it. . . | ||
| Bob Oakman (Bobsbus)
Rating: N/A |
"Yep, Bob, you're missing it. . ." So, what else is new? | ||
| Niles Rating: N/A |
Bob - you ain't missed nuthin - DO FOLLOW the manufacturers recomended psi - there are many Firestone/Explorer families who had wished their family members had done the same and not overloaded their underinflated tires - how often have you heard of catastrophic tire failure in a properly loaded max tire rated inflation ? - NEVER ! Niles | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
Niles - What PSI do you run in your tires? How did you determine if this is the correct PSI for your coach? Curious. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Putting the maximum amount of air that the tire manufacturer recommends using to achieve the tire's maximum weight capacity, will help prevent any problems with the tire's design. I've been using whatever the tire branding states is the maximum pressure to be used for maximum capacity, in every vehicle I've ever owned and driven. I've never suffered a blowout from doing so. I do know plenty of individuals that insist they enjoy the softer feel of a less-inflated tire (or inflated to their particular vehicle's specifications and the tire manufacturer's branding ignored). They have suffered blowouts during their vacations, at one time or another. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
RJ - I usually run whats on the tire as 'max psi' - then see how 'hard' the ride is and back off 10 to 20 lbs. if necessary - It is mainly cause the tires usually are rated for more weight than 1/2 the loaded axle weight and max psi causes the ride to be a little rough - Niles | ||
| Hugh Bavaro (Hbavaro)
Rating: N/A |
Rjlong - other than what the others have said, following the tire mfg recommended tire pressure, no. What's your suggestion? Hugh. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hello tire users. RJ knows what he's asking. Heavy vehicle tires have recommended tire pressures, from their respective manufacturers, based on the weight that the tire will be carrying. You can get the charts from your reputable tire supplier. The number embossed on the sidewall is only the highest weight and air pressure the tire is rated for. If you mistakenly overinflate for the weight that the tire is carrying, you don't get the proper "foot print" on the road. This might be of concern when running in wet weather, and over the miles, will wear the centre of the tread, just like an overinflated car tire. Also, you may experience handling problems if the fronts are too hard. Straight ahead steering correction can be dramatically different depending on tire pressure. Best is to weigh each tire location, weighing each axle and dividing by two also works. As an example for a modestly weighted conversion, you might find 100 lbs front, 85 drives, and 75 tag axle might work very nicely. Put the highest pressure in your spare, you can always let air out at the side of the road... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
BW - true enough - Please make note (all those who read this thread) - I am not telling anyone to do as I do - My first post was referencing under inflated and/or overloaded tires which IMHO is a more critical problem than handling characteristics - Not to say handling is not important (as I do make adjustments to air pressure based on handling problems and different road/weather conditions) - I would still NEVER go below the minimum psi as designated for any tire - Unfortunately the bus manufacturers recommended inflation gets dated every time a new tire design and subsequent rating is introduced - Currently I run Michelin Pilote XZA1 315/80 R22.5's which are relatively new design - Load rating is 9090#'s for singles and 8270#'s for duals at 130# psi max inflation - that would give me a gross tire rating of 69,440#'s which, of course, is way more than my bus - The old Dunlops had a max psi of 120#'s and less of a load rating - I run about 115-120 psi on steers and tags and 110-115 on drives on average with the Michelins (looking for the proper radial tire squat) - Featherlite told me I could run as little as 90 or 95 #'s which I won't do - contrarily my brand new Firestone Steeltex (courtesy of Firestone) on my Excursion are rated at 3415#'s (13,660#'s total) at 80 psi max inflation and I run about 50-55 psi unless toting a large load for any long distance - I don't disagree with you or RJ that your actual psi is not necessarily whats on the tire, but I also believe its not what the manufacturers recommend - A new set of tires is kinda like a new girlfriend, you have to play around with 'em for a while to find out how to dial in a safe and comfortable ride - I just won't run anything under the minimum for any size load - Niles | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
HAaaaa..... "A new set of tires is kinda like a new girlfriend, you have to play around with 'em for a while to find out how to dial in a safe and comfortable ride " You can drive on rims, but without a decent shift lever, you ain't goin' nowhere. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
JTNG - at my age I'm thinkin more of comfort than speed - I got the push button auto - ;-) Niles | ||
| Jtng Rating: N/A |
mmmmm....pushbuttonauto...mmmmmmm...mmm..mmm ! |