| Author | Message | ||
| Rob Leight (Robleight)
Rating: N/A |
I know that there are #1 & #2 types of fuel, but will the "off-road" stuff harm my bus?? I was told the only difference is color and tax exempt reasons. | ||
| Bill Gerrie
Rating: N/A |
Rob In Canada the only difference is the colour and tax situation. Very heavy fines if they dip your tank for any reason and find the wrong one in there. Bill | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
no they just put marking dye in the fuel, it can be either #1 or #2 it will not hurt your engine but if you put it in the tank and you drive it on a public road way and the law finds out the your wallet will be hurt big time and you may even have it impounder for a long time. the fines here are very steep {$1,000s] if charged. | ||
| daddytoocool Rating: N/A |
easy way around that : tank in storage bay with two ball valves, one feed and one return. the way i see it if the govt won't keep these greedy b#**#**&&^^ds from gouging us they can forfiet there tax revenues. just keep alittle clear fuel in main tank and don't forget to change your return line flow. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
The Euro method of avoiding the fines is to remove the tank and fill pipe. The fillpipe gets removed and extended & capped at the far end. (Euro cops have a list how long a test stick can be used in each vehicle.) The Empty fill tube is filled with whatever the local Polica call legal. The tank is filled from a location inside. Works well (I'm told) , in the US with most cops having 10% the training or motivation of Euro fuzz (no mordita) , it should work just fine. Let your conscience be your guide,if applicable. FAST FRED | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Tell 'em it's veggie oil from McDonalds and it's the color of their french-fries. Who on this board, has ever been stopped and their fuel tested? | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
I was just wondering the same thing. Gary | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751)
Rating: N/A |
I've heard of guys being checked at the fla ag station (which most of ya'll don't worry with). I've also heard, from not as reliable source that about 5-10% gas will take the dye out of off road fuel. Can anyone confirm or denie this? | ||
| neomax Rating: N/A |
Ca. has taken to randomly do a fuel check setup in rest areas, where all diesels, including rv's, are subject to being pulled in. They concentrate on trucks, commercial buses, and field service trucks but do occasionaly pull in a diesel pusher. I have gone thru 2 of them in 2 years but did not get pulled out for inspection either time. Contrary to what FF may think, they are trained to do their task and are staffed by a combo of CHP, CAQRB, and FTB officers. I have a friend that was a flat-bed hauler who got caught abt. 5 yrs. ago w/red diesel and it ended up costing him over 10k between the State and his lawyer. So, it is a possibility, even though probably remote w/ an rv. | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A |
What if you added some used oil that is nice and black to the tank. It seems like it would be hard to see what color the fuel is. Of course it might just be easier to make biodiesel. You could always have a divider in your black tank and store fuel in the other side. I doubt they would want to check your black tank, LOL. | ||
| mike102 Rating: N/A |
I have been checked.two very polite men in plaid shirts and very big badges.believe me,they know all the tricks.I was legal,but a friend of mine wasnt.10k fine no excuses.you do what you want,i know better. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
(Gawd, I love these stories.....) Out of curiosity, were these "two very polite men in plaid shirts and very big badges", State agents or Federal agents? For those of us that are driving around with the bus windows in.... and the bus still looking like a bus...... How many times have we been stopped for failure to have a recent fuel tax sticker or decal affixed to the side panel? How about those missing DOT numbers? Does your plate reflect the vehicle as a commercial bus, or common motorhome? Does your car make it well known that it uses diesel or gasoline for fuel? Are you ever forced to pull into a weigh station with your converted bus? Does anyone stop at railroad crossings while driving their conversion? How many are sitting in jail while reading this? Hands, please? (I thought so) | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
John i have a 4104 that has all the windows and have not been stoped for any of the above, how ever i have been asked by a HP what type of full the old gal used but he never checked it as he just wanted to look at it as he was very interested in getting a bus for a motor home for his family, so we gave him the tour through it and he was nice enough to guide me through LA during rush hour. however the HP will run you over a set of scales if you look over weight and if you are the you unload the excess before you leave the scale area, of course you allso have the ticket to pay so the takes the weight out of you wallet | ||
| mike102 Rating: N/A |
John, they were federal. | ||
| neomax Rating: N/A |
JTNG: Enforcement of most laws in this country is very selective, out of economic necessity. The problem arises for you as an individual when u become the one selected, just ask Martha Stewart about it if you have any doubts. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
How much less $ is dyed diesel going for these days? I want to fill up my 230 gallon generator tank with the stuff but I don't even know where to find it or how much it costs... ??? | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Home fuel oil sure looks like common diesel to me.. I used it at one time or another, in every diesel powered car I ever owned. There's no dye in it. And, a transit mix outfit I worked for on Lawn Guyland used it in all his trucks... From the Oshkosh to the V12 Brockway.... That was back in the 60s.. I realize the sulfur content is going to get comments, but a little additive takes care of the problem nicely. I can understand and accept the fact that the government will check commercial operators regarding the taxation of the fuel they're using daily. But I find it very difficult to accept the notion that any government agency is going to question what's in the tank of a random RV. The vehicles are not on the road that much, or using enough fuel, to make the time spent on an inspection and subsequent investigation, worthwhile. They are not going to win any court case based on a single tank of dyed fuel found in one RV. And I sincerely doubt that any RV (bus conversion or otherwise) has ever been tested for the type fuel in the tank. Call me names if you fella's want to, but when I hear third party stories about the plights of "other people", I tend to disregard them; treat them as common urban myths. There are too many diesel powered RVs that look the same as any other RV. We do not see any RVs being stopped at any weigh station, nor aside the road with Federal agents dipping sticks into their tanks. And I have not read one note from anyone that makes the claim that -they- have been stopped, checked, questioned, or fined, for the type fuel -they- might have had in -their- tank. I do know of a guy in Kentucky, who's sister's girlfriend's husband's brother-in-law, knows of a guy out west that says he knows of someone that's............ Hey..... anything's possible. But being caught in some sort of a sting operation set up to catch a single RVr that might be beating the government out of a couple tanks worth of taxable fuel a year, is a bit much...... | ||
| Tony H. (Bluegrass)
Rating: N/A |
Amen Brother John | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A |
If they do question you just say you added some old tranny fluid to the tank to get rid of it and it made the diesel red. Like the average person knows what red diesel even is. | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
FF: Hmm, that's a heck of an idea. I bet I could pull that off with my F-350's Reading body (my wife's Blazer would be harder). And you know, I have a 500-gallon of #2 fuel oil in my basement...and it isn't even red. At $2.30/gallon, it's starting to look pretty good. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Home fuel oil is # 2 diesel, but without being filtered as well. A furnace will gobble 3/4 gal an hour and up thru a single spray tube. Your engines injectors need far cleaner fuel. A Racor 1000 with 2 micron filter will solve most problems from water to dirt to clumping . (the old oil tries to become ashphalt) Your injectors were DESIGNED for sulphur fuel, so have no problem with a bit of EXTRA lubrication. The air NAZIS may have a different view, so if you want to appease them , tell them you dont burn your old heavy metal filled waste oil anymore!!, FAST FRED | ||
| Bill K. Rating: N/A |
Fred when the fuel man comes to my place, he fill's the house the shop and my off road tank for the exc. equipment. All out of the same truck and no not different comparments. the only difference is that I have to pay the Pa. sales tax on the shop and off road tank and he would fill the road tank if I had one but I would have to be bonded for the tax and more paper work. To much hassle for that so I buy the road fuel at the pumps. | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Like Bill said, it's the same stuff I get at the pumps. The bill says "#2 LS fuel, not for road use". | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj)
Rating: N/A |
No. Same stuff, different dye. Legal/moral concerns. Heavy civil $fines$. Your choice. | ||
| john wood Rating: N/A |
It will only be a matter of a small amount of time before the road nazis have an infrared gas analyzer that will detect the burned traces of the dye as you and anyone else is tooling down the road totally unawares. Probably will be like the red light cameras at an intersection, just snaps a picture of your plates when dye is detected in the exhaust. You get the citation and fine in the mail. If you loan out your diesel rig, make sure the loanee does not fill with the red stuff. Here in MT they make it easy to cheat, as the red stuff is in the same pump as the road stuff, and many time gasoline as well. | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
houston texas has a portable emission analyzer that is placed at the on-ramps to various entrances on the expressways... its sniffs your exhaust... and if it doesn't like what it smells, a camera snaps your vehicle... and in a couple weeks, you get a citation in the mail....or you have it corrected...i think there are 7 or 8 counties in texas that you have to have your vehicle "smogged' in addition to the regular anual vehicle inspection..... glad i moved... | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
I have my doubts a camera could read my plates. Heck, I can barely read my plates. Something about being on 2 different work/plow trucks for about 8 years makes them a bit difficult to read.  If they get the portable sniffers, maybe I'll just run stacks. | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Rating: N/A |
oops | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Not a matter of time... it's now. I just stopped at a funny little setup in town where they pinched two lanes into one as you are driving up a hill, and in the pinch you pass an array of camera looking things and lasers. I pulled over, got out and went to see what they are doing. Full-on realtime infra-red gas spectrum analysis of the exhaust cars spit out as they pass (no dyno needed 'cause they do it on a hill), cameras that take two or three photos of your license plate and interpolate them to get an amazingly clear photo of the plate, a computer to datalog it all along with an amazingly detailed spectrum of your emmissions. They are in the "testing" phase for permanent installations that will be on freeway on ramps and various intersections throughout California, and soon thereafter all over the country. Caveat: They only measure at ground level. Put up a roof exhaust pipe and pass by undetected....for now... | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Don't plenty of buses have the tailpipe through the roof even now? I know I've seen plenty of RTS & Flyer transits that do. And again, I'm not sure my friend's professional-quality digital camera could get a clear pic of either plate of my truck while it was parked...they are THAT beat-up. | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A |
Does anybody know for a fact that the red dye makes the exhaust emissions any different? Perhaps they could detect the higher sulfur levels though. | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
I need to talk someone with a "sniffer" into testing the exhaust on my friend's 4-71 generator (runs red-dyed heating oil). | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
The Laser "sniffers" don't really sniff, they record spectrum shifts due to the absorbtion/emission characteristics of the dye, if the dye's isn't consumed by combustion or by the dye's combustion products if it does burn with the fuel. If you "laze" the dye it will absorb energy and/or emit a specific wavelength as the dye "gives up" the energy it has absorbed. The emitted energy will be a specific wavelength depending on the chemical composition AND structure of the dye molecule. This is fairly "old" info. This phenomena is why a test tube of Chlorophyl looks green in sunlight but darken a room and shine a light thru the tube and the color of the tube looks brown. What they're doing with the emissions test is a new application of old technology. This is just a general explanation. It gets more technical, but this is fairly generic info. Hope it helps the learning curve! | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Sorry, used "laser" but meant Infrared. Broad Spectrum Infrared has the ability to permit detection of a broader range of molecules than laser. My first exposure to this technique was diagnosing Power Plant stacks (large diameter and very tall) The laser was necessary due to the distance issue. The molecules investigated were small in number. Marc Bourget | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Finally there begining to use the roadside smog cameras to go after the "gross poluters". This was fought by all the states for 20 years , because the states would much rather have a totering vehicle inspection program to create JOBS. In many states the license to operate a private "inspection" station is just a license to print money. In NY there is a price for a sticker, like anything else, do nt bring the car , just the cash. The air WILL get better if only the smokey trash cans (any year) are repaired. The La La's were dummb enough to PAY to scrap old (not bad or poor , just calender year old) vehicles , rather than bite the bullet and go after the crapola vehicles. The polution cameras are far better than the red light ticket cameras , that only give a few seconds of yellow .There the con was the folks that supplied the camera system got a cut of the CASH from "fines". FAST FRED | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Rating: N/A |
Hey JTNG! I was pulled over by the Ohio DOT heading south to Florida last Christmas to see if I was a gypsy privateer doing illegal charter work. Ontario personal use plates, if that matters to the Ohio DOT. Pretty far fetched, 29 year old bus with two roof airs mounted on it but, hey, if he wants to look at my bus a talk, why not? However, my FMCA plates got screwed on the engine door at the next coffee stop... Dyed fuel is not detected by sight, it is detected by test strips. And the charge is tax evasion. I hope you don't mind having your income tax audited for the rest of your life.... and the ultimate insult is screwing up your estate paperwork for the kids. This little Canadian boy plans to pay the tax and be done with it. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Why does the term "Queen-whipped" come to mind? | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A |
Here is some interesting info on the red dye and how the taxes work. http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/L2_3_9_rf.htm DIESEL FUEL DYEING A confusing situation for both refiners and purchasers of diesel fuel has arisen because both the IRS and the EPA require the addition of red dye to certain classes of diesel fuel. However, each agency requires that the dye be added to a different class of fuel, at a different concentration, and for a different reason. The EPA wants to identify diesel fuel with a high sulfur content in order to ensure that it is not used in on-road vehicles. The IRS wants to ensure that tax-exempt low sulfur and high sulfur diesel fuel are not used for taxable purposes. The EPA Requirements Originally, the EPA's low sulfur diesel regulations required the addition of blue dye to noncomplying high sulfur (>0.05% mass) fuels. But after the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) expressed concerns that blue-dyed diesel fuel might be confused with the most common aviation gasoline, which already was being dyed blue, the EPA changed the dye from blue to red. The EPA regulations require "visible evidence of the presence of red dye" to identify high sulfur fuels intended for off-road use. In practice, this requires refiners to add a level of red dye that is equivalent to no more than 0.75 pounds/1000 bbl (ptb) of a solid Solvent Red 26 dye standard. Solvent Red 26 was chosen as the standard because it is a unique chemical available in pure form. Diesel fuels are actually dyed with liquid concentrates of Solvent Red 164 because this dye is more fuel soluble and less costly than the standard. Solvent Red 164 is a mixture of isomers that are very similar to Solvent Red 26, except the former incorporates hydrocarbon (alkyl) chains to increase its solubility in petroleum products. Any red dye observed in the fuel of a vehicle in on-road use triggers a measurement of the fuel's sulfur content. Penalties are assessed based on the actual sulfur content of the fuel, rather than simply on the presence of dye. The IRS Requirements The IRS regulations require that tax-exempt diesel fuels, both high sulfur and low sulfur, have a minimum level of a Solvent Red 164 dye that is spectrally equivalent to 3.9 ptb of Solvent Red 26 dye standard. This level of dye is more than five times the amount required by the EPA regulations. The IRS contends that the high dye level is necessary to allow detection of tax evasion even after five-fold dilution of dyed fuel with undyed fuel. back to top FEDERAL DIESEL FUEL EXCISE TAX The federal government imposes an excise tax on diesel fuel, currently $0.244 per gallon. However, certain fuel uses are tax-exempt or subject to a reduced rate. These uses include: heating; farming; use by state or local governments or nonprofit educational organizations; and boats engaged in fishing or transportation. Because Congress believed that there was considerable evasion of this tax, the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 changed some of the diesel tax procedures. Briefly, under the new procedures, the tax is levied on diesel fuel removed from a terminal's truck loading rack unless the fuel is dyed. Dyed diesel fuel may be used only for nontaxable purposes. Anyone who knowingly sells or uses dyed diesel fuel for taxable purposes or who willfully alters the concentration of dye in diesel fuel is subject to a minimum $10 per gallon penalty. The 1993 Act gives the IRS authority to enforce the diesel fuel tax, including the authority to inspect terminals, dyes, dyeing equipment, and fuel storage facilities; and to stop, detain, and inspect vehicles. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Hey Warrior.. Listen, not to be a wise-ass, but our Feds are out to fry the big fish, not the minnows. If they -ever- start stopping recreational vehicles, and they -ever- find off-road fuel in one, the only question they'll ask is: Where did you fuel up last? They'll go after the operator of the fuel outlet for selling fuel illegally. If you tell 'em that you used some fuel you had in a 50 gal drum in the back of your garage for the trip..... They'll tell you to be more careful.... But they'll be disappointed that you didn't buy it from a station, so it could have been a great "cuff" for them to nail the big fish making big fins selling undeclared fuel by the thousands of gallons. You've got Canadian plates on it and were in Ohio? How many miles can you go on a tank of your own Canadian fuel? It is un-taxed fuel in your tank, as far as the States are concerned anyway... until you fuel up in the US. And the US ain't gonna' impose Canadian law, if you've broken it. For all they know, using fuel designed for multi-purpose may be perfectly legal up there in East Queenland. I mean..... really... | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
Rating: N/A |
JTNG, what kind of cigarettes have you been smoking lately? Ohio is only ~500 miles away from Toronto. If your 9 can't make it 500 miles on a tank of fuel, you must be doing something funny with it. By the way, the Canada bashing is just hilarious, considering the state of affairs in your country at the moment. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"By the way, the Canada bashing is just hilarious, considering the state of affairs in your country at the moment." Most Americans don't Bash Canada , But as our country that was started on a tax revolt , we find it BOGGELING that Canadian's would accept paying "Sales Tax" on Postage Stamps!!!!!! WE love you coming down here for REAL health care , rather than waiting in line for years for some socalized care. Here you PAY cash!! Thanks!! FAST FRED | ||
| Derek (Derek_l)
Rating: N/A |
Don't get me started on the taxes we pay up here.. But for one that doesn't get sick, our healthcare system works fine for me. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Egads, Derek... Really no need to forgo that head examination due to Canadian health care situation. We can take up a collection here for your fuel to drive down. |