| Author | Message | ||
| Bob Wood Rating: N/A |
Has anyone tried the Bully Dog Propane Injection for increased fuel economy? Increase horse power also. What are your thoughts about the payoff. The cost is around $650.00, and I am told by a friend, to expect 3-4 MPG increase. | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
don't waste your money | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
Increased horsepower and economy, until you factor in the cost of burnt pistons, bent rods, etc... Also, anything that makes power makes heat. If you get a 10% increase in power, the cost of upgrading could be high, but not as high as the cost of NOT upgrading. I have a buddy that seriously hotrods 3208's and his advice was word for word what Two dogs just said. Gary | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
First, you don't identify your engine but I'll assume an 8V71 DD Summarizing what I recall (not exactly what was said) so you can ask your own questions - an increase in mileage like this should not realizable from an 8V71 in good running condition. This is my impression only, not a pronouncement from a diesel engineer (who, IIRC, dropped off the BB the last time this topic came up, I wonder why?) I understand there would have to be something significantly wrong, or "out of wack" with the engine for propane to "cure" it to the tune of 3-4 mpg increase. This means a 33% increase in efficiency if the bus was getting 10-11 mpg (bigger % increase if the bus was getting less mileage) - all achieved from ADDING fuel (seems backward, doesn't it?) AIUI, Propane will allow, if there is sufficient extra oxygen, the development of more HP, but propane has less BTU capacity and is ultimately more expensive HP for HP. I'm not saying don't use it. I'm not saying you're wrong. I just recall these points were raised and I am asking, was the original engine up to par when they added the propane system? That being said, I had dinner with George Lowry of the Western GeMS Sat. nite and he swears by propane! (But we didn't discuss the topic) Onward and Upward | ||
| mel 4104 Rating: N/A |
the prov. gov.transit system and DDjoined together in trying a split fuel engine deisel and propane,it turned out as such pro. +dei. =$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ so if gov. and dd had a hard time figuring how to do it do you really think that some one has a gadget that will do it for $650 if so call me i have some tires that have been road tested that i will sell you that you might get 1,000,000 miles out of, we will take price later. | ||
| frank-id
Rating: N/A |
There are many opinions but no"real world testers". My cousin heard from a guy he used to work with that knew this guy who used propane in his generator. I know several old truckers who used propane for a long time in logging and otr trucks. All said propane was similar to nitros is to gasoline. The big caution is heat. A pyrometer is a must. There is a guy on Ebay selling an instruction booklet on building propane system for cheap. I am going to shortly connect up a system on a Cummins. Frank in Idaho | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
the source I posted is a good friend of mine not someone's second cousin thrice removed. He has spent big bucks on a very serious 3208 buildup, including Propane injection. His advice is save your money. I'm not sure in what way propane is like NO2 other than they are both injected, the principles are entirely different. I'd suggest some real investigation before accusing posters of relaying third-hand information, I've done enough personal investigation to determine that the marginal gains in performance is not worth the potential damage to my engine. Here is one piece of information worth reading: http://www.dieselinfo.com/tech_propane.cfm Gary | ||
| frank-id Rating: N/A |
http://members.shaw.ca/k2pilot/ http://www.usdieselparts.com/bullydog.cfm http://www.dieselpro.net/propaneinstallationmanual.pdf http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getmain.php3?GenTips Frank | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Rating: N/A |
There are a couple of fellow busnuts I know that have propane injection on their rigs. One has a four-cycle 903 Cummins, the other is in a stock two-cycle 8V71 Detroit. Both say that propane injection seems to improve their engine's performance at higher altitudes, but they don't see any real difference on the flats. In previous discussions on this and other message boards, it appears that nobody really understands what the propane actually does, however, it seems to act as a catalyst in some way to improve the burn rate of the diesel. I am NO expert on this by any means, just recalling info from the past. HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
The data from the craze of pro/jecting diesel pickemup trucks would not seem to apply, at least in my mind, to an over-ten-ton bus, load dynamics are very different. Gary | ||
| TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A |
I would imagine it raises the octane ...just a guess...would imagine a few gallons of gas in the diesel tank would do the same thing | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: |
It's not so much an octane raise as a chemistry thing because Propane, being a gas, "atomizes" real well, and burns easier, if not faster, compared to diesel. Gasoline in the diesel would atomize better but the higher compression of the diesel engine would cause the Gasoline to detonate, causing physical damage. Better atomization is why I said it would be an improvement, albeit an inefficient improvment, if there was sufficient oxygen. O'wise propane would use up the O2 in the cylinder and more unburned diesel goes out the exhaust valve to bump up the pyrometer readings when the "hot enough to burn" diesel gets into the exhaust pipe with the excess of (Scavanged) O2 present, whereupon it makes for too much heat downstream - where is doesn't do any good. GearHead has a point. Yes, I'm sure some people realize an improvement but compared to what? If their engine was running normally, there wouldn't be the need to seek this compromised, bandaid approach. Remember the whole point is a claim for 33-50% better efficiency. I DON'T THINNNNNK SOOOOOO!!! Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| Lin
Rating: N/A |
I have not done the research but have read about using propane injection to get a little more climbing power on serious hills. I don't think I'd be interested in continuous use though. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
which is when your Engine is under the most heat-creating load. I don't know about you, but the only time I've got one eye glued to the heat gauge, is when I'm pulling a hill. Something that adds heat under the most heat-generating conditions is not on my wish list. If it was a 6,000 lb pickup truck that would be different, but not for my bus. Gary | ||
| Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A |
If I understand the system/physics and chemestry correctly...the propane acts as a catalyst allowing more efficient Fuel BURN alot like Water injection on early jets. as for extra heat production.......more efficient fuel should be cooler no? Luggin the engine ( High fuel flow and low RPM) makes the temp go up..... I doubt that it would make much difference anywhere but on hills as someone else has mentioned.......but Propane injection has been around for a long time and used alot in the Cnadian Rockies prior to the 425-600HP engine days | ||
| Nick Morris (Nick3751)
Rating: |
I could be completly wrong here but I would say that if you open your exhaust up to the max (reducing egt) and put your propane in correctly you would notice a difference at least in ecconmy, 3-4mpg I don't know. By the way guys diesel doesn't have an octane measure it's cetane, according to my college engine proffesor and what the pumps say. Also my understanding of what propane does is it not only aids in burning all the fuel put in the cylinder but depending on where it is injected it will cool the air in the intake thus denser/more air, more O2 and a better percentage of fuel burnt in the cylinder, i.e. better economy since more of the fuel is getting burnt and not pushed out the tail pipe. | ||
| John Rigbyjj
Rating: N/A |
The guys I have heard use it only for climbing. George Lowery has it on his 06. John | ||
| Ron Rutledge
Rating: N/A |
I Know that when Injected into the air sysstem it will cool the air in the intake thus denser and more air, more air and a cleaner(%)fuel burnt in the systemm better economy with more horse power that is what we All want on the hills. This can all so be found with a after-cooler or air exchanger to cool down the Air. Ron "Thunder Coach" "Crown's are the Best" | ||
| Jayrjay Rating: N/A |
I helped install a system on a GM4104 with a 6V92 in it, with mixed results- including reduced engine life. Instead of propane, I've often wondered about oxygen injection? On a hill or mountain, where the air is less dense, it would seem to me that injecting O2 could make up for the loss. Any thoughts? I recently bought and O2 bottle to begin experiments with. I don't need more fuel, the mechanical injectors in my old 8V71 are too rich up high, I need more air. No a turbo is not an option. Speak up all of you Pros. ...JJ | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
In my research, most of the people who have claims of fantastic increase in power and whatever, are also Bully Dog Dealers (like George Lowry and his 903 Cummins), who are also trying to sell you something, mainly a bit of tubing and a solenoid for $650. I have always found that it is not wise to check with the foxes for details when building a chicken house. It is my belief that if the claims are all true, you would find lots of applications installed on long haul class 8 trucks. I have never seen one so installed. | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
if you get a chance, look at 1 of the HEB grocery highway trucks... the sterling (ford) chassis 1's... they are using propane enhancement... catepillar electronic engines... | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Well crap Jim, you just busted my bubble I guess. Do you know WHY they are doing it? All the time or only on hard pulls? Maybe for those using their buses for grocery delivery, they should go with propane huh?. | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
I dunno.... I drove Eagles up mountains through a bunch of eastern states, and MCIs, and '04s, '06s, and fishiebowels... I remember doing 80 with full loads on the flats and maybe taking some time (30-40mph) up steep grades... Never overheated any bus I ever drove.. It was good 'nuff for the passengers and the company... And probably the bus. Why do people always try to be bigger and better than what's designed? (aww... don't mind me....I like to rant) | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A |
Jayrjay, while adding O2 for higher elevations is a great idea, once you crunch the numbers to see how much air an engine ingests (LOTS of CFMs) AND set your system any real "enrichment" of these air, I'd wager that you'd deplete the bottle in just a few seconds. Love to be wrong, tho FBB | ||
| Brian Brown (Fishbowlbrian)
Rating: N/A |
RE: cetane and octane: They have an inverse relationship to each other. Gas engines require a high octane number based upon compression and timing to reduce pre-ignition (knocking). They used to use lead for this. Diesel engines, by their nature, run on compression-ignition, and their fuels are rated in cetane to quantify how well the fuel ignites by ignition. This is why adding gasoline (and its octane) to diesel is about the worst thing you can do for good economy. Here's the "Straight Dope" for a more extended discussion: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdieselvsgas.html My $0.02, FBB | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
as far as i know about the HEB trucks, its an all-ways-on type thing.... i saw 1 on the trucks in the holt cat truck shop in san antonio... but never did get to go look at it....just saw the propane tank... its actually made into the diesel saddle tank.. all on the passenger side.... | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A |
Bob Wood, the only reports that I have consistently seen are for increased torque with light propane injection. I haven't seen any which claim an improvement of a mile per gallon consistently, so I would only use it for pulling grades. I agree with Gary, if I installed such a system, I would also install a pyrometer, so I could monitor it. George Lowry's 06 has the 903 Cummins out of a New Flyer, if I recall right, and both George and Ellen say the improvement on grades is well worth it. The other comment I was listening for was how much propane do they use. I remember them talking about a barbeque bottle's worth on a trip of several thousand miles, so they weren't using it a lot. Since the propane is put into the airstream on it's way into the engine, the full propane charge is exposed to compression and ignition all at once. The diesel is injected and burned during the injection stroke, so it does not really explode. If you mix the two on a grade, the diesel is by far the greater amount of fuel, so what you are really getting is a pilot burn from the propane and then the balance of the fuel as the diesel is injected. With the pilot burn, I can believe that the diesel would burn better, if there was enough oxygen for both. Maybe this is the way that it does its work. JayJay, I've wondered about extra oxygen, too, but I haven't went any further than that. It seems to me that the heated nitrogen plays a role in helping generate power, too, but I have no idea how to figure it out. How did you figure out that the propane reduced the engine life in the 4104? Jim, is there any chance that you can get a line on the setup and results on the HEB trucks? Thanks, guys. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Jayrjay Rating: N/A |
How do you buy diesel AND propane, and save money? Be a pity to get to your campground and not have any heat or cooking fuel 'cuz you burned it all up in a slow-race with some trucker! JJ | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Rating: N/A |
i took a gas engine class ... when i was working for caterpillar... it dealt mainly with natural-well-head gas... the stoichiometric engines (like the huge natural-gas-burning engines used for gas compression) leave unused/unburned oxygen to be exhausted out with the exhaust gasses...gonna have to dig out the 'ol text-books... | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
By the way, you can go to: http://www.bullydog.com/ and see their claims on their web site. Might help some in understanding. | ||
| Bob Wood Rating: N/A |
I'm running a 35,000lb Eagle with a 6V92T 350HP with 1020lb torgue. I am more interested in using the propane injection for the extra torgue in the hills. Bully Dog claims there is a MPG increase, and a HP increase with their product. However, the 80HP increase would be nice. The Diesel to Propane burn ratio is advertised at 4:1. However this is with the system being used all the time. The system can be turned on and off at will, and the propane flow into the turbo can be adjusted. Whether it is worth installing or not, I am undecided, but I sure appreciate all the feedback. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
IMO, Bullydog is making kits for vehicles that are pushing 6K#-up, maybe 15K# with a load. How much does your Bus weigh? Gary | ||
| Lyle Jensen (48gmc)
Rating: N/A |
Has any one tried using oxegen from a tourch tank injected in to intake to improve fuel burn rate? | ||
| Johnny Rating: N/A |
Gary: I've seen 30,000lb GCW Rams driven by hotshotters running propane. However, the way to boost power and REDUCE EGT's is actually nitrous oxide. | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
The nitrous is an oxygen source and allows more fuel to be burned. This brings us back in a circle to the beginning. Diesel doesn't perfectly atomize into individual molecules. Propane, being gaseous is virtually individual molecules will probably burn off soonest. Depending on the amount of oxygen present, the propane will probably consume enough oxygen to make resonably complete combusiton of the diesel impossible, until it gets into the (relatively) Oxy rich environment of the exhaust with its heated scavenge air. This allows "after burn" and drives up tail pipe temp. Nitrous will release enough Oxygen to justify increasing fuel delivery. It's all interrelated and simple conclusions just don't make the grade. You have to account for all factors. If simply adding propane gives you 33% more mileage, then there's something seriously wrong with the engine or its setup. But it's nigh on impossible to get a decently designed and operating engine this type of boost unless something important is compromised. Marc | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
Oh go for the gusto and get you some Propylene Oxide. We run it in our race car and it really makes a difference power wise. Biggest drawback is cost at around 30 bucks a gallon but 4 oz's of this juice to a gallon of VP race fuel goes a long way. You would need quite a bit for a 200 plus gallon tank!  Oh yea, almost forgot! Propylene Oxide acts just like Nitrous oxide does but is in liquid form! Very harmful to your health if not handled with care! That COULD be some of my problem! Ace | ||
| John that newguy Rating: N/A |
Makes ya' mount things upside-down? | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
" We run it in our race car and it really makes a difference power wise. " No problem when the "RACE CAR is about a foot long!! FAST FRED | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
Make that THREE feet Freddy and more than you can handle! Goes to show you your wrong once again! Ace | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
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"That COULD be some of my problem!" Ace? You have a problem? I hadn't noticed. Gary | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Oh, My Gawd! And to think all this time I was giving Ace the benefit of the doubt about his race car experience. Now I see why he thought I was Mocking him! Ace, you ain't fair. I can remember specific references to NASCAR, but you should be more clear that you're into car MODEL sports not car MOTOR sports. I take back all I've ever said about Ace's experience and exposure to Tech. I've survived Tech at IRL, CART and NASCAR events (support class level) as a crewman, and pre and post race tech at SCCA events (Driver, Formula Atlantic - 3 wins in 6 races, a 2d and 2 3ds) I can't hold a candle to you on the MODEL track but I'd sure look forward to going one on one on a REAL race track! BTW, this comment relates in no way to your efforts on your H-3! Anything you do with it is fine AFAIC. Onward and Upward | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
Marc just to let you know I have probably as much experience as you when it comes to Nascar racing! Maybe not ON track but experience enough. I've been to the schools both driving and mechanical and am friends with a few drivers. In fact I grew up with Ricky Rudd and Scott Pruett as we raced Karts together during the IKF days and I might add I was a 4 state class champion that has yet to be matched to this day! I also have friends in the Bill Davis shop that get me where I want to be during special events and get me things done that I want done! Don't know how old you are and really could care less, though you show your age most of the time you make a post, but I'm 52 and racing big cars is out of the question as I cherish my life a little more than you would think. To hamper other experienced racers with my now slower reactions would be harmful to not only me but them as well. Now IF I had the resources back when I was younger which is the only thing that really kept me from going 1:1 racing I might have been one of those guys you hear about every weekend. Back then I was offered to race what is now a Goody's dash car but turned it down because my dad became ill. Was that a bad choice? I think not! I still had the need for speed and the closest thing to it was 1/4 scale racing! It's all over the US and the set up's are the same. We scale the cars, and we test different aero packages from different body styles. We use oil filled shocks that we test using shock dyno's. We dyno tune our motors and also have chassis dyno's! Sound like fun? It really is and it's relatively expensive too but a lot safer on the body! I've traveled a lot and met a lot of friends and also started my own mfgring business supplying aftermaket race parts which has stretched to racers in Australia. I was the first to develope a rear diff for the IRS cars. IRS is Independent Rear Suspension in which we use today. Not bad for a small town carpet layer huh, but my racing is fun just as it is for you in the big cars. If you think you would like to try one out, just let me know! Ace | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
Forgot to mention I have a small (large full size machinery) machine shop with a bridgeport mill. A 8 foot lathe, along with a 10 foot sheet metal brake. I mig, tig and stick weld and can even solder! WhooHoo! It's not big and it's not fancy but it gets the job done! Ace | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Then I was wrong and I apologise. If you learned how to "tune" and drive a cart chassis then you have what it takes to learn to "tune" and drive a car chassis. Even though,intuitively they are very different, both take smarts. I just couldn't see why you would react the way you did when I mentioned it long ago and it seemed to me to be a logical deduction. Please forget my comment because now I understand it wasn't backed by fact. Marc | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary)
Rating: N/A |
I'd take him up on the offer to try one out, sounds like a hoot. Gary | ||
| H3 (Ace)
Rating: N/A |
Appology accepted! I'm not here to defend what I know as long as I know enough myself to get by on! I'm not here to compare wits! I'm here to share info about busses not brains! When it comes time that I need not share info, yours, his or mine, then it's time to move on! Don't know what part of Ca. your in but I have a lot of racing friends that I support and sponsor with my products out there that I can surely fix you up with a trial run, or if you ever come to the south like the Carolinas, Alabama, or Virginia, your more than welcome to try your skills with one of mine! Keep in mind, it takes a LOT of eye/hand cordination especially with 10 of the best of the field on the track at one time! Most sanctioned races have upwards of 75-100 entries so it takes a good car along with a good driver to make the top 10. I have been in and witnessed 500 lap races with as much as 3-4 cautions which means very good drivers racing very well set up cars! These ain't toys and the guys that travel many thousands of miles a year are here to prove it. In fact, I was recently a co-sponsor of a race in Rialto where the winner took home a $1000.00 for a win in his class not including prizes sponsored by local merchants and other racing suppliers! Oh yea he was running one of MY dyno tuned motors. The car was recently listed on E-bay and some of the competition was actually bidding on it just to get the motor from what I'm told! I know a grand isn't much but for 2 days of racing and not getting hurt, meeting and laughing with guys you only talk to is well worth the trip to any of the tracks whether the payout is big or little!! I enjoy it and I guess that's all that matters. With that hobby, converting our H3 and work of course, it leaves very little time for much else but that time, as much as possible, is spent with my dad in the nursing home! Yea I'd say my plate is pretty full! Ace | ||
| Marc Bourget Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the offer. I guess that I'd like to try it. But, I don't know that I have the aptitude or personal interest for "remotes", if you will. I'm sure I have the talent, this can't be more difficult than dropping a helo thru a hole in the trees at night with about 10' clearance for the rotors, (something I'll NEVER try again!*) but I don't know that I have the interest. I teasingly say, like love and affection (IYKWIM), racing isn't a spectator sport! Like I said, I don't think I can hold a candle to you with your sport. Onward and Upward Marc Bourget * an ex-Vietnam Marine Helo crew chief who observed the exercise chewed my butt, In my ignorance of consequences, I didn't know any better, which I how I probably pulled it off! Like I said, never again! |
