| Author |
Message |
Rob Leight (Robleight)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 7:40 pm: | |
I have an '81 Eagle with no Bus Air or Heat. My Kubota 15KW powers a central heating unit. But if and when the generator dies for some reason, I have no heat in the bus!!
Is there a cheap & easy way I could have a back-up plan for heat?
I was looking at getting a cheap inverter that plugs into a cigarette lighter...and plug in a small space heater on it??
Any advise would be helpful. Thanks |
Sean Welsh (Sean)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 8:11 pm: | |
Rob,
You're not going to be able to run a heater for very long from batteries. Even a smallish desktop-type heater draws over a kilowatt -- you'd need to crank over 80 amps into an inverter from your 12 volt system, and a cigar lighter plug won't carry that much current.
You'll need to go with some type of furnace -- either diesel or LPG.
-Sean |
TWODOGS (Twodogs)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 8:14 pm: | |
many cheap ways...one of those catalitic heaters that fits on the 5 gallon tank
is your central heat 110 volt?...(don't understand)...most r.v. units are 12 volt blower & run fine all night ,no problem |
Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:31 pm: | |
Webasto Diesel fueld heater.....and never use your rooftops again |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 9:35 pm: | |
I don't know of any portable 120 volt AC heaters that put out much more than 5000 BTU. IIRC, most catalytic heaters are limited to not much more.
5000 BTU from a 12 volt source is going to be somewhere near 165 amps inverter draw. Compare this to the 25,000 to 40,000 BTU from a Suburban.
If all you're dealing with is 50 degrees, it might not be much of a problem, but at freezing, I think you're going to want a furnace. It will only need a source of propane or diesel, and I think you can get your power consumption down to under 10 amps at 12 volts.
By the way, if your generator were to fail, how would you charge your batteries?
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 10:24 pm: | |
Check the small fuel oil furnaces they use in mobile homes?
It'll run on diesel and needs 110v for the fan and ignition. Any
decent sized inverter should handle that. It'll be an intermittent
use of power, and may give the batteries a slight break?
Running the bus engine coolant through pipe work from front
to rear, adding house type radiators where you want them inside,
will give plenty of heat when all other peripherals fail. It'll
mean running the engine, but going down the road, or in
an emergency situation, it shouldn't matter..
Propane and a normal RV propane furnace will need 12, 24,
orm110 volts, aside from the propane, but it's near foolproof
when it's working right...... |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:19 pm: | |
Lots of RVers use the Olympian heaters as their sole heating source - about $300 for 8K btu on a Wave 8. |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 1:50 am: | |
If u carry propane on-board, many of the previous solutions will work. The ceramic brick or blue flame heaters available at Harbor Frght or Northern would work very well for a back-up. Some safety considerations are in order if u use one, but I and several others I know and travel with use them. A few use them as their primary source of heat. I have an installed RV forced air unit, but readily admit to prefering the ceramic brick unit I have if the weather conditions are ok: just cold, not wet and cold. If u don't have propane on board, I'd get busy and put it in. One of the drawbacks to an all-electric coach, if that is what u have. |
Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 5:52 am: | |
I also use a ceramic brick heater, a three brick job rated at 6K per brick. On a cold morning, on three bricks, about ten minutes is all it takes before turning it down to just one brick. I'm a full timer in a MC5A now but have used these heaters in my last three rigs and have never had my alarm go off even when installed directly above the heater. |
Don/TX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 7:51 am: | |
I did the same as you Edward, great results. There are some of these types that use the little handheld torch bottles, great for an emergency as originally asked in the question. |
Doug Wotring
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:55 am: | |
The weasto System is forced hot air, runs on 12 or 24 volt with very little draw and uses miniscule ammounts of Dieseil which you already have.
I have one airtop 2500 and have used it in temps just below freezing..... 4 days no generator, no shore power just the coach batteries and the whole time is was warm enough for me to run around in my skivies....did I mention....it alos is a dehumidifier
and a hell of a lot safer than most other systems. as there are no Hot parts in the paassenger compartment and no LP to deal with. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 8:57 am: | |
Assuming that your Kubota is above 99% reliability you are looking for a survivability back-up. If you want NASA back-up systems for the back-up systems then there are many large expensive ways to go. Every one you add takes up space, and time to install. You may not want to carry propane or install another permanent heating system.
Most busses (even all electric) have a large inverter to power low loads (TV), or high loads (microwave) for short periods. With a three or four KW inverter you can power some small electric heaters that will keep you from freezing while you drive to a shop to get your Kubota repaired. You will have to run the engine on high idle when stopped with the large original alternator charging the batteries.
You, alone, can decide what level of comfort you have to have guaranteed 100% of the time. |
MCI Larry (Eurof3)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 9:40 am: | |
Coleman makes nice portable LP heaters in many sizes.
They can hook up to a small tank or hose to a bigger one.
I keep one in each well house for our rentals in case of power failure in the winter.
After his furnace died in his old MH my Nephew put a catalytic unit in his 26' MH and it worked fine.
Like everyone says. Depends on how cold you plan on using it, as to how big to buy.
Wouldn`t a Nice FirePlace be nice....romantic and you might even get lucky....
Best of luck ! |
James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 9:51 am: | |
Larry: One of my friends has precisely that, a blue flame fireplace, 20k btu, Northern Tools, installed in his New Flyer conversion, his only heat source. |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 7:56 pm: | |
Nobody mentioned a FF favorite, very low energy usage. The Dickerson Diesel Stove heater.
I may not have that designation exactly right!
Seems good idea for long term standby use or in an emergency when the genset dies.
Marc Bourget |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 1:55 am: | |
You're right Marc. There are a couple of problems with that choice, however.
One is that most of these units run over $1,000 new, plus the chimney installation.
Another is if he has never used a boat stove, he ought to try lighting one and getting it hot enough to do some heating before he buys one. It does require some patience.
And you ought to see the warnings that come on some of those units. We saw something like "never leave stove running unattended". Most people do, anyway. Something that I'm sure was the lawyers at work, but just the same...
And then, you do get to clean them of soot, occasionally, depending how careful you are in their use. Did I mention that these require some patience?
When burning clean fuel on a setting within their operating range, these really do work well, and there is little in the way of a substitute for them. However, a little carelessness goes a long ways. BTDT.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 2:07 am: | |
The Dickinson stoves look pretty good, but they are more than mere backup. They do make them for propane also by the way. I think the price was around $500-$600. Has anyone installed a small wood stove for ambiance/backup use? |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 5:41 am: | |
The many JOYS of the Dickinson (over other forms of heating systems) is first NO electric is needed , the unit will run till the gravity feed fuel tank runs dry.
AS a "live aboard" sailor in NYC for 23 years, I would light it off in Nov and turn it off in April.
With NO electric required , a week long Electric outage was never a problem.
The unit is SILENT! No pumps , motors ,fans or anything to wear out.
Fuel used can be house heating oil , as there is no special requirement for super clean fuel , as in most European originated bus heaters,Espar Webasto et all.
Euro fuel is far better spec. than US , and US #2 diesel usually requires about 50% kerosene added to assure long term all winter operation.
Dickinson is a brand name and not all of their products are for 6 month unattended operation, but all the ranges are good. $1100 and up.
FAST FRED |
bruce king
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 8:00 pm: | |
Lets go back to the guys original question: What to do about heat if genset dies.
Just fast idle your bus. Trucks do this all night in every rest stop i've ever been in. Solves the passenger heat problem, and keeps engine warm and air up for quick departure. Yes, it's not very efficient compared to a webasto, but it'll do until you get the genset repaired.
No cost. No equipment. No installation. |
Stan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2004 - 8:39 pm: | |
Bruce King: Also no bus air or bus heat! |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 12:02 am: | |
No defrosters running off the engine's coolant?
Why do people make things seem so complicated?
There's a free "backup heating system" everytime the engine runs. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 5:32 am: | |
"There's a free "backup heating system" everytime the engine runs."
The Ideling engine is wearing out faster at idle than if it were running 90mph down the freeway.
The engine is NOT at operating temp while ideling so the blowby is high , wearing out (contaminating) the oil too.
Yes 35 years ago ideling all night (with someone ELSES truck) was normal , but so was 200,000 mile overhauls .
IN a dire emergency , caught roadside in a blizard , with life or death an issue , sure Idle the engine to DEATH , rather than freeze folks to death.
But as a "normal "backup practice , no thanks!
FAST FRED |
Jim-Bob (Pd41044039)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 11:50 am: | |
Fred, I agree with you technically, but not practically.
Yes, the idling engine is wearing out "faster" but you won't be able to measure the wear caused in 8 hours of idling.
Even the best of us won't run our bus far enough to wear out the engine, unlike the truckers who run all the time and idled every night.
With a properly maintained diesel genset, the scenario of having to run the main engine overnight for air cond or heat might occur 1 or 2 nights in the whole time you own the bus. These would be times you are not in a campground & the weather is bad enough that you need HVAC AND the genset broke.
If you DO have to idle overnight, change the oil when you get home, if you want to.
And last but not least, you can block the radiator just like the truckers do so that about 75% is covered. Remove the cover the next morning.
The older buses had radiator shutters to keep the engine warm no matter how cold the weather was. Most buses have had these removed when they broke.
Jim-Bob |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 12:16 pm: | |
FF-
"Fast Idle". Look it up when ya' got time.
We ran charters and the bus ran from the time we left the barn until
it returned. It's standard practice (until the price of fuel went up).
The passengers want a cool or heated bus when they're ready to
roll and passenger comfort comes first. Fast idling 24/7 will give
as much or more service life than the wear and tear of driving.
The guy's looking for a backup system in case his genset failed
and he couldn't use the electric heaters. He did not mention if it
would be while running down the road or while sitting for a few
hours, or for a night, or for 24 hours a day for a week... or more.
The engine water is hot while the engine's running. It usually
supplies heat for the front defrosters and is usually already piped
from the front to rear of the bus. Adding common radiators
inside the coach to utilize convection heat while the engine's
running is about as free and easy as one can desire.
And lastly, FF....... Your comment:
"But as a "normal "backup practice , no thanks! "
Is about par for you, lately.
Perhaps "backup" systems are something you use in "normal practice",
but for the rest of us, a backup system is for when something fails
and there's nothing else to use. I'm real sorry to hear you need your
backup system that frequently. Maybe Ace was right, after all.
Cheers. |
Lin
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 1:19 pm: | |
Since we are talking about only emergency backup, you could probably check into a motel. Adding some radiators might be a good idea anyway to use just going down the road. Why should you have to run the genset when you've got lots of free heat? Then you would have a backup system also that could be considered at a critical time. By the way, is it really necessary to get into attack mode on this stuff. I appreciate the opportunity to read diverse views. Often even the most extreme opposites have some validity to them. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 5:51 am: | |
When most coaches were historically used to fast idle they were churning an air cond package of about 40 to 60 hp , with a few more HP going to spin tha alt for large DC blowers to move the air.
This is enough load to allow the DD to stay at operating temperature , so the engine life wasn't materially shortened.
"Perhaps "backup" systems are something you use in "normal practice",
but for the rest of us, a backup system is for when something fails
and there's nothing else to use. I'm real sorry to hear you need your
backup system that frequently. Maybe Ace was right, after all.
Redundancy is a virtue , not a concept to be sneared at.
Yes, using a normal backup system is a rational method of problem solving.
EG In the fall at times it gets below freezing in CT so there is concern for freezing the FW piping.
Draining and complete winterizing would of course be the "Corect " method .However with OPTIONS there are other courses.
Folks with AC could use heat tapes , or electric heaters.
WE could use the propane furnace set on low , but prefer to use the "Emergency Backup System".
AN unvented propane death heater to keep the cabin at 40deg . WE vent well before occuping the unit.
Just a different way to solve a problem, for a RV cruising lifestyle.
Backup systems are great for emergencys , AND for occasional use to be sure there functioning.
Have you have tossed away your spring breaks as there only a Backup System?
FAST FRED |
John that newguy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 9:22 am: | |
FF-
"When most coaches were historically used to fast idle they were
churning an air cond package of about 40 to 60 hp , with a few more
HP going to spin tha alt for large DC blowers to move the air.
This is enough load to allow the DD to stay at operating temperature
so the engine life wasn't materially shortened"
The '04 and '06 (and others) used a separate engine for the air
conditioner; the ac compressor did not take power from the engine.
The fans used to circulate the air, according to your own words
use only: "a few more HP going to spin tha alt for large DC blowers
to move the air." Where's the load?
Look FF..... There's either a "backup system", or there's an "optional
system". You appear to rely on "backup systems" for purposes
designed for emergencies, and consider that an "option".
The spring brakes are not an "optional" system, nor are they a "backup"
for normal brake usage used to stop the vehicle. They are designed
for parking and emergency only.
Good grief, man. Heating the bus using the piping that was originally
designed for heating the bus, is not a bad idea. It's there, waiting for
the guy to reconnect and use. Adding a few radiators inside the coach
to replace the radiator and fans that apparently have been removed,
is Okay-Dokay. And heating the bus by driving it, or fast-idling it for
24 hours, ain't gonna' kill a thing, or shorten any engine's life..
Using that hot water to heat a coil around the hot water tank, so hot
water for washing is available as soon as you arrive at the campground,
is a common feature of many RV hot water tanks.
I ain't gonna' argue the point further with you. Redundancy is -not- a virtue. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 5:41 am: | |
"The '04 and '06 (and others) used a separate engine for the air
conditioner; the ac compressor did not take power from the engine."
WRONG for the 06 , right for the 04.
"Redundancy is -not- a virtue."
Beauty and functionality is in the eye , and inovativeness of the converter.
FAST FRED |